Life From Dirt?

[Bthoth]

But miracles do happen

I know, it's a miracle that here in the modern world that some folk are still as simple minded to believe that israel is holy land.

 

[Bthoth]

But miracles do happen

I know, it's a miracle that here in the modern world that some folk are still as simple minded to believe that israel is holy land.

 

[shunyadragon]

But miracles do happen

. . but how do you objectively confirm a miracle happened?

The next word after miracle in the dictionary is mirage.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Also, you don't seem to be aware that people can just plain old be mistaken about what they've seen. Or that people attribute causes to the things they've seen all the time without actually being able to demonstrate said cause.

I’m sure you want to believe that, no doubt quite a few are.

But everyone? No.

You’ve read posts from Sgt.Pepper here on RF. (Or at least, I thought you did, in another thread.)
She presents too many details in her travels, for her to have been “mistaken”!

There are others on here who may seem irrational, granted…. But not everyone; certainly not Sgt.Pepper.

You’ll probably just ignore it. But that’s what narrow minded people do…. to protect their worldview.

As for worshippers of Jehovah, like me, we try to take it all in. To use discernment & see where and how it all fits.

Take care.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I’m sure you want to believe that, no doubt quite a few are.

But everyone? No.

Well... it is a very human thing to do....
We are a species that are very prone to type 2 cognitive error: the false positive.
This is the basis for lots of superstition also.

And it's a human thing, not a "theist" thing. Atheists can't escape their own human psychology either, you know...
Best case scenario, an educated skeptic is armed a bit better against it by knowing about such phenomenon and as a result being skeptical about his/her own "gut feelings" and being able to better detect when one is jumping to conclusions etc.

But other then that, we are all subject to our human psychological weaknesses.

You’ll probably just ignore it. But that’s what narrow minded people do…. to protect their worldview.

As for worshippers of Jehovah, like me, we try to take it all in. To use discernment & see where and how it all fits.

That is, after it's filtered by your JW bible goggles.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Well... it is a very human thing to do....
We are a species that are very prone to type 2 cognitive error: the false positive.
This is the basis for lots of superstition also.

And it's a human thing, not a "theist" thing. Atheists can't escape their own human psychology either, you know...
Best case scenario, an educated skeptic is armed a bit better against it by knowing about such phenomenon and as a result being skeptical about his/her own "gut feelings" and being able to better detect when one is jumping to conclusions etc.

But other then that, we are all subject to our human psychological weaknesses.



View attachment 84540



That is, after it's filtered by your JW bible goggles.

All of it, together, is reality. Better than your blinders.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All of it, together, is reality. Better than blinders.

It's the epitome of irony to get such a head-in-sand one-liner in reply.

 

[shunyadragon]

I’m sure you want to believe that, no doubt quite a few are.

But everyone? No.

You’ve read posts from Sgt.Pepper here on RF. (Or at least, I thought you did, in another thread.)
She presents too many details in her travels, for her to have been “mistaken”!

There are others on here who may seem irrational, granted…. But not everyone; certainly not Sgt.Pepper.

You’ll probably just ignore it. But that’s what narrow minded people do…. to protect their worldview.

As for worshippers of Jehovah, like me, we try to take it all in. To use discernment & see where and how it all fits.

Take care.

You being selective as to who may be right and who may be wrong concerning seeing or experiencing the supernatural and miraculous neglecting the fact that fallible humans are all subject to error and seeing and experiencing things that do not exist. The fact that there are far too many diverse and conflicting beliefs and interpretations for the subjective claims of the miraculous and supernatural for your above claims to be true.

The problem with your claim of taking it all in and using discernment and see where it all firs is that you assume that only one way your way, is all that fits.

The evidence is clear, everyone? Yes, without exception.

 

[shunyadragon]

All of it, together, is reality. Better than blinders.

It is the blinders on those that cling to ancient tribal world views and loose their free will and judgement concerning the objective evidence of reality as it is.

You are not considering "All of it together." You are assuming only one possible truth based on faith of what you believe. So circular it bites you in the butt,

 

[Sargonski]

There is no such thing as a "God theory". There isn't even anything that could be called a god hypothesis. The different hypothesis for abiogenesis at least propose a mechanism - the god story just assumes that life was poofed into existence by magic.

Of course there is such thing a "God Theory" -- and certainly there are many God Hypothesis. .. and while perhaps one hypothesis involves poofing in by magic .. one you can not disprove - not all God hypothesis make that assumption and thus your conclusions and claims are based on false assumption.

The first step in any discussion about God -- unless it is previously assumed/given -- is to define what is meant by God and/or state the name of the God one is referring to if relevant.

We can't make any comments on theory or hypothesis of an undefined entity ?! God does not need to be defined as some omnipotent - all powerfull entity who is everywhere at all times .. or you can define God that way .. some kind of universal Gaia thing.

The God hypothesis proposes a mechanism whereby a God -- or Godly force -- intervenes -- the mechanism proposed as follows. This force ... which we shall call "orgone energy" - after its discovery by the late Wilhelm Reich - violates the law of entropy which dictate that when you pass gas in a corner of a room that natural tendency is for it to spread out .. rather than become more concentrated around some kind of singularity.

Later and modern scientists have found similar violations -- Chaos Theory - is one book you could read on the subject .. (do note the word Theory ) These are real events .. I have witnessed some of these personally in my research study and work. If you study chaotic systems you find structures that should not exist .. ordered structures in the chaos ... which violate the laws of entropy .. things going from less concentrated to more concentrated ... as if directed by some ghost in the machine .. its like if you were watching the wind and some invisible hand started to write out words .. using leaves soil and what not ..

In the lab it has been shown that reproducing natural conditions .. primarily sunlight (or equivalent) and tidal action to the chemical ooze ... and you will produce RNA ... more importantly self replicating molecules will arise out of the ooze. .... over time .. these molecules will become more and more complex .. with each replication and if all goes well this ooze will one day open eyes and become aware of its own existence.

It is the orgone energy that directs against the flow of entropy that represents the hand of God .. a primordial force moving things towards a certain direction .. producing an eventual outcome .. that we understand as the "I AM" moment --- This event immortalized in the Monty Python skit citing the words of various Philosophers --- "I Drink therefor I AM"

 

[shunyadragon]

Later and modern scientists have found similar violations -- Chaos Theory - is one book you could read on the subject .. (do note the word Theory ) These are real events .. I have witnessed some of these personally in my research study and work. If you study chaotic systems you find structures that should not exist .. ordered structures in the chaos ... which violate the laws of entropy .. things going from less concentrated to more concentrated ... as if directed by some ghost in the machine .. its like if you were watching the wind and some invisible hand started to write out words .. using leaves soil and what not

The above lacks an understanding of Chaos Theory.

I would like to clear up some misunderstanding as to what is "Chaos Theory." Chaos Theory is simply how the observed patterns of the outcomes of cause and effect events based on fractal math. Fractal math is where there are more than one, usually many variables in nature, variable in the initial conditions that determines the range of possible outcomes.

Chaos theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary area of scientific study and branch of mathematics focused on underlying patterns and deterministic laws of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, and were once thought to have completely random states of disorder and irregularities.

The best basic reference to begin understanding Chaos Theory is: Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick

The bottom line Chaos theory demonstrates that nothing is random in the range of possible outcomes of cause and effect outcomes in nature. The only thing that is considered random is the timing of the occurrence of individual events.

For example: patterns and range of possible outcomes of the radioactive decay over time of a mineral can be predicted, but the timing of individual decay events of an atom is random.

In the lab it has been shown that reproducing natural conditions .. primarily sunlight (or equivalent) and tidal action to the chemical ooze ... and you will produce RNA ... more importantly self replicating molecules will arise out of the ooze. .... over time .. these molecules will become more and more complex .. with each replication and if all goes well this ooze will one day open eyes and become aware of its own existence.

A little too simplistic and misleading how abiogenesis and evolution is considered by present scientific knowledge.

It is the orgone energy that directs against the flow of entropy that represents the hand of God .. a primordial force moving things towards a certain direction .. producing an eventual outcome .. that we understand as the "I AM" moment --- This event immortalized in the Monty Python skit citing the words of various Philosophers --- "I Drink therefor I AM"

This makes assumptions of the existence of God, based simply on the natural outcomes in the physical nature of our existence explained by Natural Laws and processes. The connection requires a leap of faith and not objective evidence.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You’ve read posts from Sgt.Pepper here on RF. (Or at least, I thought you did, in another thread.)
She presents too many details in her travels, for her to have been “mistaken”!

What would you propose the critical thinker who has no such experiences himself do with that information. Here's what we know. A kind, intelligent, thoughtful person with a very negative and traumatic religious past reports the kinds of experiences she does. I don't know what she actually believes, but she's referred to experiencing a spirit world. What should any of us who have no such experiences do differently with that knowledge? I have no doubt that she is sincere, but I'm not so sure about correct, and even if I stipulate to her being correct and these spirits existing, then what? Try to contact these spirits? Why? Accept the possibility of a god. I already do. I'm an agnostic atheist. Begin praying?

perhaps one hypothesis involves poofing in by magic .. one you can not disprove

Nor need he, nor anybody else.

In the lab it has been shown that reproducing natural conditions .. primarily sunlight (or equivalent) and tidal action to the chemical ooze ... and you will produce RNA ... more importantly self replicating molecules will arise out of the ooze. .... over time .. these molecules will become more and more complex .. with each replication and if all goes well this ooze will one day open eyes and become aware of its own existence.

It is the orgone energy that directs against the flow of entropy that represents the hand of God .. a primordial force moving things towards a certain direction .. producing an eventual outcome .. that we understand as the "I AM" moment --- This event immortalized in the Monty Python skit citing the words of various Philosophers --- "I Drink therefor I AM"

You've just taken the science - abiogenesis in this case - and inserted a fictional energy, which you also attribute to a god. This is what the people advocating a life force do. They add an unneeded force to account for inanimate matter coming alive. You do it to explain structure forming spontaneously, and invoke a principle you call ergone energy, which also "explains" what is already explained with the known forces.

Order emerges from "chaos" naturally whenever a snowflake forms or liquid water crystalizes into ice. Dissipative structures like tornadoes and hurricanes, in which air molecules organize into swirling, self-sustaining, energy-channeling structures, arise spontaneously whenever condition that make it possible obtain:

"A Dissipative Structure is a thermodynamically open system operating far from thermodynamic equilibrium, that exchanges energy, matter, and information with. the external environment. In this kind of systems, organization can emerge through a spontaneous self-organization process"

From the linked paper:

"This paper presents a discussion on self-organization processes in dissipative structures, in order to highlight the general conditions for raising complexity and generating order in nature. In particular, variation of entropy and thermodynamic information in self-organizing systems were briefly introduced."

 

[Heyo]

Later and modern scientists have found similar violations -- Chaos Theory - is one book you could read on the subject .. (do note the word Theory ) These are real events .. I have witnessed some of these personally in my research study and work. If you study chaotic systems you find structures that should not exist .. ordered structures in the chaos ... which violate the laws of entropy .. things going from less concentrated to more concentrated ... as if directed by some ghost in the machine .. its like if you were watching the wind and some invisible hand started to write out words .. using leaves soil and what not ..

You do know that Chaos Theory is a mathematical theory, don't you? I.e. there are no forces, least of all an orgone "force". Everything is deterministic and attractors are just a logical result of the chaotic function.

 

[Sargonski]

You do know that Chaos Theory is a mathematical theory, don't you? I.e. there are no forces, least of all an orgone "force". Everything is deterministic and attractors are just a logical result of the chaotic function.

"There are no forces" - OK Friend .. If you say so, it must be true even though every student of Physics and Chemistry is taught of the 4 main forces that govern the Universe.

then you blurt something about a mathematical theory -- when "There is no Math" don't you know ? because if I said so, it must be true right?

Then you talk about "attractors" .. but how can there be attractors without forces ??

"Just a logical result of chaotic function" - ?? ... with no forces there is no logical result of anything in the chaotic function because there is no chaotic function.

That glaring error aside -- the whole point of pointing out the anomalies in the chaotic function is because these anomalies are NOT the logical result of Chaotic function.

"You do know" - that there are at least 4 or 5 major fails in your post .. without mentioning you did not define the term you were supposed to define -- nor address the "I AM" portion of the Lecture Deer .. meet headlight !!

 

[Sargonski]

The above lacks an understanding of Chaos Theory.

I would like to clear up some misunderstanding as to what is "Chaos Theory." Chaos Theory is simply how the observed patterns of the outcomes of cause and effect events based on fractal math. Fractal math is where there are more than one, usually many variables in nature, variable in the initial conditions that determines the range of possible outcomes.

Chaos theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary area of scientific study and branch of mathematics focused on underlying patterns and deterministic laws of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, and were once thought to have completely random states of disorder and irregularities.

The best basic reference to begin understanding Chaos Theory is: Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick

The bottom line Chaos theory demonstrates that nothing is random in the range of possible outcomes of cause and effect outcomes in nature. The only thing that is considered random is the timing of the occurrence of individual events.

For example: patterns and range of possible outcomes of the radioactive decay over time of a mineral can be predicted, but the timing of individual decay events of an atom is random.



A little too simplistic and misleading how abiogenesis and evolution is considered by present scientific knowledge.


This makes assumptions of the existence of God, based simply on the natural outcomes in the physical nature of our existence explained by Natural Laws and processes. The connection requires a leap of faith and not objective evidence.

Complete blathering nonsense friend .. just a bunch of unsupported accusations. What is too simplistic and misleading about present scientific knowledge ... and why.

no .. an assumption of God was not made "I AM" .. refers to the "knowing you exist moment"

and ye havn't the faintest idea about Chaos Theory .. sans what any monkey can google and post .. pretending some expertice .. followed by making a bunch of naked claims .. that are supposed to be accepted without support on the basis of such fallacious shinnanigans.

A terrible fail friend .. go back .. read again and try again ... Oh .. and I actually read Gleick's book some 40 years ago when it came out .. but, that was long prior taking Quantum Chemistry during the 4th year of my degree .. doing those funky wave equations .. Hisenburg uncertainty principle .. funky math skills required.

 

[Sargonski]

What would you propose the critical thinker who has no such experiences himself do with that information. Here's what we know. A kind, intelligent, thoughtful person with a very negative and traumatic religious past reports the kinds of experiences she does. I don't know what she actually believes, but she's referred to experiencing a spirit world. What should any of us who have no such experiences do differently with that knowledge? I have no doubt that she is sincere, but I'm not so sure about correct, and even if I stipulate to her being correct and these spirits existing, then what? Try to contact these spirits? Why? Accept the possibility of a god. I already do. I'm an agnostic atheist. Begin praying?

Nor need he, nor anybody else.

You've just taken the science - abiogenesis in this case - and inserted a fictional energy, which you also attribute to a god. This is what the people advocating a life force do. They add an unneeded force to account for inanimate matter coming alive. You do it to explain structure forming spontaneously, and invoke a principle you call ergone energy, which also "explains" what is already explained with the known forces.

Order emerges from "chaos" naturally whenever a snowflake forms or liquid water crystalizes into ice. Dissipative structures like tornadoes and hurricanes, in which air molecules organize into swirling, self-sustaining, energy-channeling structures, arise spontaneously whenever condition that make it possible obtain:

"A Dissipative Structure is a thermodynamically open system operating far from thermodynamic equilibrium, that exchanges energy, matter, and information with. the external environment. In this kind of systems, organization can emerge through a spontaneous self-organization process"

From the linked paper:

"This paper presents a discussion on self-organization processes in dissipative structures, in order to highlight the general conditions for raising complexity and generating order in nature. In particular, variation of entropy and thermodynamic information in self-organizing systems were briefly introduced."

Let us get one thing clear .. prior to your googled pretense of having some skill in math.. Any monkey can post a googled definition or paper .. pretending to have a clue. and 2) my math skills related to chaos theory are far better than yours.

"Order emerges from the chaos naturally" -- please prove this mathematically .. and explain naturally vs un-naturally - and why this is not a force .. and why this force (energy) is fiction .. doesn't exist .. this natural direction that things go.

Clueless friend is this diction as nature is composed of many forces (energies) which you earlier have described as fictional

"You've just taken the science - abiogenesis in this case - and inserted a fictional energy, which you also attribute to a god"

I did not insert a fictional energy - I noted a real energy that has been observed to exist by others .. you are talking nonsense .. and atrributing that nonsense to me.

And last -- although I do suggest that this "Ghost in the Machine" could be God .. I do not attribute directly to God - but leave open the subject by requesting a definition of God ... without which ..it is impossible to guage comments about God ..

For example - if I define God as "Nature" natural process and all forces therein .. your claim then becomes "Order emerges from the Chaos through God" and you end up contradicting yourself.

 

[shunyadragon]

Let us get one thing clear .. prior to your googled pretense of having some skill in math.. Any monkey can post a googled definition or paper .. pretending to have a clue. and 2) my math skills related to chaos theory are far better than yours.

"Order emerges from the chaos naturally" -- please prove this mathematically .. and explain naturally vs un-naturally - and why this is not a force .. and why this force (energy) is fiction .. doesn't exist .. this natural direction that things go.

I would like to clear up some misunderstanding as to what is "Chaos Theory." Chaos Theory is simply how the observed patterns of the outcomes of cause and effect events based on fractal math. Fractal math is where there are more than one, usually many variables in nature, variable in the initial conditions that determines the range of possible outcomes.

Chaos theory - Wikipedia​

en.wikipedia.org

Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary area of scientific study and branch of mathematics focused on underlying patterns and deterministic laws of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, and were once thought to have completely random states of disorder and irregularities.

The best basic reference to begin understanding Chaos Theory is: Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick

The bottom line Chaos theory demonstrates that nothing is random in the range of possible outcomes of cause and effect outcomes in nature. The only thing that is considered random is the timing of the occurrence of individual events.

For example: patterns and range of possible outcomes of the radioactive decay over time of a mineral can be predicted, but the timing of individual decay events of an atom is random.

Clueless friend is this diction as nature is composed of many forces (energies) which you earlier have described as fictional

Chaos Theory does not involve forces. It only involves using fractal math to explain the patterns found in chains of cause and effect outcomes in nature, See @Heyo post $2433. He did not say there are no forces. He said Chaos Theory does not involve forces. HE seems to have a good grasp of the math concepts.

f"You've just taken the science - abiogenesis in this case - and inserted a fictional energy, which you also attribute to a god"

I did no such thing.

I did not insert a fictional energy - I noted a real energy that has been observed to exist by others .. you are talking nonsense .. and atrributing that nonsense to me.

I did not address the issue of forces or energy.

And last -- although I do suggest that this "Ghost in the Machine" could be God .. I do not attribute directly to God - but leave open the subject by requesting a definition of God ... without which ..it is impossible to guage comments about God ..

For example - if I define God as "Nature" natural process and all forces therein .. your claim then becomes "Order emerges from the Chaos through God" and you end up contradicting yourself.

I do not define God as Nature did not claim any of the above.

I do not think the others in this thread disagree with my posts concerning 'Chaos Theory' if they have a basic knowledge of math and science. I gave a good reference and recommend a book, which would help you if you would take them seriously.

 

[Sargonski]

I would like to clear up some misunderstanding as to what is "Chaos Theory."

Chaos theory - Wikipedia​

Chaos Theory does not involve forces. It only involves using fractal math to explain the patterns found in chains of cause and effect outcomes in nature, See @Heyo post $2433. He did not say there are no forces. He said Chaos Theory does not involve forces. HE seems to have a good grasp of the math concepts.

You have absolutely no understanding of what your talking about .. and posting Wiki-links is not helping your case -- you do realize that any monkey can google "Chaos Theory" and post what wiki has to say.

Chaos Theory -- involves forces .. when used to analyse chaotic systems .. driven by forces.

Now please stop pretending ...as the only misunderstanding you have cleared up .. is that one may have thought you had the faintest idea of what you were speaking .. "Chaos theory does not involve forces" -- was a ridiculously silly thing to say - in context of the discussion. Chaos Theory makes predictions about the outcomes of the forces in what ever chaotic system it is used to assess.

But, none of this you had to understand .. to understand what was stated in my post .. no need to pretend to have expertice in area's you do not.. for I am here .. as your spirit guide .. your "knight in shining armor .. coming to you emotional rescue" ... and yes it is "Name that Tune Time" .. where contestents get to play to great prizes ..

did you not understand the fart in the corner analogy ? -- the explanation of entropy ? in simple terms .. such that even those without pH.D's in nuclear physics can understand .. thats how you know a good teacher mate .. can explain things in simple terms .. anyone can understand .. even you friend but, make no mistake ... your failure as a student is my failure as a teacher .. "Name that Movie" substitute son for student and father for teacher. .. 10 seconds .. tick tick tick first letter G .. tick tick .. last letter R .. tick tick

 

[YoursTrue]

I have no other choice but to put my faith in humanity.

When there is no choice, there is enlightenment.

It seems to me (now, and now that I look at it, before) that putting one's faith in humanity is a failing proposition. But that's me -- how I see it -- including based on present circumstances, I won't go any further now with that.

 

[Little Dragon]

It seems to me (now, and now that I look at it, before) that putting one's faith in humanity is a failing proposition. But that's me -- how I see it -- including based on present circumstances, I won't go any further now with that.

You can put your faith in humanity, or you can hope or wish for someone or something to come save us.