"Life is going great, so I became religious."

[Quintessence]

I didn't become religious due to bad times. *shrug* I'm religious simply because I'm always asking questions and applying critical thinking to everything (at times to the point of nausea).

 

[Blackdog22]

I'll put it a different way. Everybody loves those who love them. Only a person with the power of God working through them can love those that don't love them

That isn't true at all. There are believers who hate people and there are non believers who hate people. Everyone is capable of acting in a loving fashion toward people they hate, as matter of fact it is manditory in a working environment.

I use the word believers because this discussion came about by the question, "What can theists do that atheists cannot?" and your answer was that you can forgive people and love people.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

That isn't true at all. There are believers who hate people and there are non believers who hate people. Everyone is capable of acting in a loving fashion toward people they hate, as matter of fact it is manditory in a working environment.

I use the word believers because this discussion came about by the question, "What can theists do that atheists cannot?" and your answer was that you can forgive people and love people.

Again, that isn't what I said. I said these things are impossible to do without the POWER of God giving us the ability. I have seen many believers in Jesus not utilize that power on occasion

 

[Drolefille]

Again, that isn't what I said. I said these things are impossible to do without the POWER of God giving us the ability. I have seen many believers in Jesus not utilize that power on occasion

If the "power of God" affects believers and non-believers equally then how do you know that it's a power of a god and not just part of human nature? It seems that you ascribe the bad parts to 'nature' and the good parts to 'god'.


As for the OP, people usually only change things when things are going badly. If things are going well people don't change much. That's true whether religion or diet or residence. (Of course the definition of "well" and "badly" might vary significantly by person.)

 

[-Peacemaker-]

If the "power of God" affects believers and non-believers equally then how do you know that it's a power of a god and not just part of human nature? It seems that you ascribe the bad parts to 'nature' and the good parts to 'god'.


As for the OP, people usually only change things when things are going badly. If things are going well people don't change much. That's true whether religion or diet or residence. (Of course the definition of "well" and "badly" might vary significantly by person.)

I'm not a universalist. I think there's only one way to be in God's good graces. Yes, that makes me politically incorrect and certainly offends people.

 

[waitasec]

I'm not a universalist. I think there's only one way to be in God's good graces. Yes, that makes me politically incorrect and certainly offends people.

you contradict yourself

 

[-Peacemaker-]

you contradict yourself

hehehe... enlighten me

 

[waitasec]

hehehe... enlighten me

I'll put it a different way. Everybody loves those who love them. Only a person with the power of God working through them can love those that don't love them

Again, that isn't what I said. I said these things are impossible to do without the POWER of God giving us the ability. I have seen many believers in Jesus not utilize that power on occasion

what can a believer do that a non believer cannot? they are both capable of doing the same exact thing.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

what can a believer do that a non believer cannot? they are both capable of doing the same exact thing.

First of all, what exactly do we mean by "believer"? Is it a "follower of Jesus", a theist, or something else?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

what can a believer do that a non believer cannot? they are both capable of doing the same exact thing.

There's no contradiction in anything you've quoted

 

[Me Myself]

I said the POWER of God, not the belief in God. The human heart is too broken to do such things on its own

But there is nothing in us which is not the power of God.

 

[Drolefille]

I'm not a universalist. I think there's only one way to be in God's good graces. Yes, that makes me politically incorrect and certainly offends people.

I don't think anyone here believes what they do for the sake of political correctness.

It's not terribly offensive to me, I just think you're wrong. I don't see the god of Abe et al as being terribly worth my attention and I don't think it makes sense to ascribe 'evil' to human nature but 'good' to God if you assume that 'God' made us.

But your claim is one that's improvable and only matters to those who believe the same as you, so it doesn't matter much.

 

[waitasec]

There's no contradiction in anything you've quoted

i think you did.

Only a person with the power of God working through them can love those that don't love them

I said these things are impossible to do without the POWER of God giving us the ability

so who can not do these things...
a believer in jesus and an atheist are both capable of doing the same things
:sorry1:

 

[Drolefille]

i think you did.




so who can not do these things...
a believer in jesus and an atheist are both capable of doing the same things
:sorry1:

I think he's claiming that the power of god will work through both the atheist and the believer. Which means that there's no benefit to believing, or something. Ultimately it's unprovable.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I think he's claiming that the power of god will work through both the atheist and the believer. Which means that there's no benefit to believing, or something. Ultimately it's unprovable.

That's the last thing I was saying. I really didn't get in to where I think the power comes from in this thread. At least, I don't think I did. Maybe I did and forgot. Ultimately I believe it comes through God's Holy Spirit dwelling inside of those who believe in Jesus. FWIW. I am among God's most broken creatures. I've need to pray for the grace to do every one of the things Jesus commanded his followers to do whether it be loving my enemies, or forgiving, or being humble. And in spite of that, I've still fallen short too many time to count, as people on this board are probably aware hehehe.

 

[Drolefille]

That's the last thing I was saying. I really didn't get in to where I think the power comes from in this thread. At least, I don't think I did. Maybe I did and forgot. Ultimately I believe it comes through God's Holy Spirit dwelling inside of those who believe in Jesus. FWIW. I am among God's most broken creatures. I've need to pray for the grace to do every one of the things Jesus commanded his followers to do whether it be loving my enemies, or forgiving, or being humble. And in spite of that, I've still fallen short too many time to count, as people on this board are probably aware hehehe.

Ok?

I rather dislike that particular view of the world. God made us all in his image but made us totally broken? Doesn't work for me.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Ok?

I rather dislike that particular view of the world. God made us all in his image but made us totally broken? Doesn't work for me.

That's not the story of the Bible. The story found in Genesis is that God made us in perfect relationship with him and each other and that it was only when Adam and Eve sinned that brokeness, and sickness entered our world

 

[waitasec]

That's the last thing I was saying. I really didn't get in to where I think the power comes from in this thread. At least, I don't think I did. Maybe I did and forgot. Ultimately I believe it comes through God's Holy Spirit dwelling inside of those who believe in Jesus. FWIW. I am among God's most broken creatures. I've need to pray for the grace to do every one of the things Jesus commanded his followers to do whether it be loving my enemies, or forgiving, or being humble. And in spite of that, I've still fallen short too many time to count, as people on this board are probably aware hehehe.

so what can a believer in jesus do that a non believer can't?
you never answered that.

 

[Drolefille]

That's not the story of the Bible. The story found in Genesis is that God made us in perfect relationship with him and each other and that it was only when Adam and Eve sinned that brokeness, and sickness entered our world

Genesis is a nice story about why there's evil in the world, but they result in God making a broken creation - even if 'we' broke it. And we spend the rest of eternity making up for it. I don't buy it.

I know all the logical arguments about free will being necessary, etc. It just requires premises I don't believe in. (And this comes from someone seeking belief, I just can't possibly believe in that.)

 

[waitasec]

I think he's claiming that the power of god will work through both the atheist and the believer. Which means that there's no benefit to believing, or something. Ultimately it's unprovable.

:yes: