Losing my atheism (my new spiritual journey)

[LuisDantas]

I agree that some do that Luis. But what of those who use that purely for solace or peace?

I have met quite a few people who do so at a terrible, dishonorable price. I can even mention a whole religion or two who fit that description. Generally, I would have to judge on a case-by-case basis, of course.

I do agree that many use these things for purely egotistical or other reasons and I find that reprehensible but there are those few who truly do love the words of their faith and IMO, that is a good thing.

Loving words may be a very good thing, a very bad thing, or anything in between.

 

[LuisDantas]

Never mind that Windwalker's post didn't resolve the issue I was asking you about. That post only pointed out that the issue affects more than just religion. This doesn't mean that religion is exempt.

If anything, religion has more of a duty to justify itself than the other activities that are also allured by the pursuit of immortality.

Except, of course, when religion knows better than to bother with afterlives and such. Which it really should always do.

 

[Serenity7855]

Question: if I say black people are not allowed into my shop, that is discriminatory. However, if I push a law which makes it illegal for black people to come into my shop, that makes it no longer discriminatory?

And yet another straw man of irrelevance posted just to wind me up.

 

[JoStories]

What about people who drink "for solace and peace"? The fact that people use something as a coping mechanism doesn't necessarily make it praiseworthy.

Ok. I will answer. Those people who drink their solace use it in a detrimental way. There are positive ways and negative. I use my nursing practice, or did before I retired, to help people cope and some do through their faith. I encourage that. Otoh, I would discourage drinking and honestly I don't see them as synonymous anyway.

 

[Jumi]

And yet another straw man of irrelevance posted just to wind me up.

Explain.

 

[JoStories]

I have met quite a few people who do so at a terrible, dishonorable price. I can even mention a whole religion or two who fit that description. Generally, I would have to judge on a case-by-case basis, of course.



Loving words may be a very good thing, a very bad thing, or anything in between.

I guess at this point Luis, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[LuisDantas]

Probably.

 

[JoStories]

Probably.

That's fine. As I just said to another poster in another thread, I've seen this multiple times in my practice, so in this case, I am relying on first hand objective experience. But I can understand your need for more objective proof.

 

[LuisDantas]

That's fine. As I just said to another poster in another thread, I've seen this multiple times in my practice, so in this case, I am relying on first hand objective experience. But I can understand your need for more objective proof.

You misunderstand me. I am not seeking "proof". I am just hoping to help dispell reliance on unhealthy beliefs.

 

[JoStories]

You misunderstand me. I am not seeking "proof". I am just hoping to help dispell reliance on unhealthy beliefs.

Ah..mea culpa on my being so slow this morning! Well, how can you do that? How can we stop the jihadists from beheading, or the Fred phelp's of the world from disseminating hate., and so on ad nausseum? As long as the human heart contains hatred, disillusion, bigotry, racism, etc, there will be those 'unhealthily beliefs'. I know of no way to eradicate racism, do you? It is said that education will help but to date, I've not seen that do one damn thing. So what answers to this quandary do you see Luis? Truly interested and I am not being sarcastic or insulting.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ah..mea culpa on my being so slow this morning! Well, how can you do that? How can we stop the jihadists from beheading, or the Fred phelp's of the world from disseminating hate., and so on ad nausseum?

One obvious way is by reminding people of the responsibility of belief.

As long as the human heart contains hatred, disillusion, bigotry, racism, etc, there will be those 'unhealthily beliefs'.

Seeing how those are examples of unhealthy beliefs, sure, that is true.

I know of no way to eradicate racism, do you? It is said that education will help but to date, I've not seen that do one damn thing. So what answers to this quandary do you see Luis? Truly interested and I am not being sarcastic or insulting.

Education is indeed the way. Racism, troublesome as it still is, can be and has been greatly diminished in just a few decades already. It can be done.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok. I will answer. Those people who drink their solace use it in a detrimental way. There are positive ways and negative. I use my nursing practice, or did before I retired, to help people cope and some do through their faith. I encourage that. Otoh, I would discourage drinking and honestly I don't see them as synonymous anyway.

I see quite a bit of similarity between alcohol and religion. Both can be relatively benign, but to certain individuals or when used in certain ways, both can be harmful.

You say you were a nurse; if so, I'm sure you saw people whose religion brought them extra grief instead of solace (e.g. "I prayed for my spouse's cancer to be healed but it wasn't. I guess I didn't have enough faith. If I had been a better Christian/Muslim/whatever, my prayer would have been answered. His cancer is my fault.") or provided comfort, but in a way that just made things worse (e.g. "oh, I don't need to go for that procedure. God's watching over me. He will provide.").

 

[skl]

Serenity7855 said: "None of this is discriminatory. They are laws, no different then not being allowed to Jay walk."

Laws? They are a little more extreme than jay walking, so do you think these laws are OK because they are in the bible and condoned by the perfect God? I guess there will always be blindness and a suitable jay walking answer for the so called wisdom written in this book.

Serenity7855 said: "I believe the earth to be 4.54 billions years old. Surely you can see the stupidity in thinking that it is only a few thousand years old. Take a look at the theory of evolution if you want to dismiss that fallacy. I have absolute belief in evolution, until a better explanation is discovered, I accept the scientific theory completely. Why would you think any different. What have I said in my post to give you that impression."

How would I know what type of religion you are and what you actually believe? You could have been a new earth or an old earth creationist, a catholic, Mormon, evangelical Protestant or one of the other variations and cults. I do know however that you dislike angry atheists, however some of the anger I believe could likely be justified.

 

[Windwalker]

Hmm. I am trying to figure out how you managed to interpreted my words into meaning that i inferred that you said they were "failed Christians", i most certainly did not, after all, anyone reading this can plainly see that you didn't say that, and can just as plainly see that I did not say that you thought, or said, that they were "failed christians". I assumed that i made it reasonably clear that is was my opinion, as the phrase was used by me to describe a person who has tried christianity without first preparing and then comiting themselves to follow that lifestyle first, thus failing miserably in the process.

I'm glad you're saying this explicitly. I wanted it to be clear I did not agree with your statement, "Yes, you are absolutely right. It is the failed Christian that has the nastiest of mouths". You said this in such a way as to say you absolutely agreed with me it is the failed Christian, etc. That's how I managed to interpret your words. It's how you phrased it. It's how someone else could hear them the way you stated it.

I very much disagree with your view that those who leave Christianity did so because they were not fully committed. That sounds nice on paper, until you actually meet with and talk with actual ExChristians. Most were the most dedicated Christians of all. Hence why now the most pissed off.

I know that it has been tried because I am a Christian, not a Catholic, a Presbyterian or a Methodist, but a Christian, striving to keep the commandments of Christ. I have tried, and I have succeeded.

Have you? What is it to "succeed" as being a Christian? Is it something you accomplish through achieving perfection? I sincerely would like to hear what this means to you. What is the measure of success to you that you attribute to yourself?

I did not say, as you quote me here, that Atheists are "failed Christians", at any juncture in my post. I do not believe that to be the case. Indeed I described the true atheist as "born and bred" that way. Indeed, It is wannabe Christians who are "failed Christians, however, if you want to be pernickety, they were never Christians in the first place so they cannot be labelled as failing at it.

And if the day comes when you lose your faith in the religion (note how I said that), will you then agree with those like yourself who try to say you never were committed to it? That may give you an illusion that there's nothing wrong with your religion to say no "true Christian" (like yourself!), would leave the religion, but that of course is pure fiction. Ask those who were in it and left how sincere and committed they were. But maybe you shouldn't if you don't want your faith in the religion to be rattled hearing their gut-wrenching testimonials. Maybe it's easier to believe a fantasy than consider the other person's point of view to be possibly valid from their perspective as actual, true, former Christians.

A Christian has been trulh converted by the unique power and influence of the Holy Ghost. They have had him testify to their souls that God lives and that His son died for us, all. So enthralling is the epiphany that one recieves they can never go back.

But they can move forward in their understanding of what God is. They may even need to kiss the religion goodbye if it stands between them and Truth itself. Right? Or is being a "true Christian", following a religion?

You know then that you have been truly converted by the Holy Ghost.

I don't think so at all! The fruits of the Spirit are not doctrinal beliefs. Can you tell me what the fruits of the Spirit are? Aren't those the measure of someone "truly converted by the Holy Spirit"? Or do you disagree?

These people have failed in even coming close to that point.

Based on what measuring stick of "success", the one you use on yourself? Do you hold that up that others must measure up to what you have succeeded in accomplishing your salvation? I wonder if this is how God measures his children?

As for their spiritually, well, we are all spiritual beings. Spirits having an earthly experience. You do not have to be a christian to be spiritual, or belong to any religion. As I said, my best buddy is an atheist. He is so spiritual, which ever way you are defining it, you would think that he is a Christian.

I wonder if God thinks he is? Come to think of it, Jesus rejects many people who professed his name. I wonder what the true measure of a spiritual life is then? It can't be following all the law. Jesus didn't accept those who did. Something was missing in them. I think that something that was missing can be found in a whole lot of atheists before they can be found in Christians who in fact don't know God, who don't walk in the Spirit. I think it's better to use the measuring stick of Spirit, just to be on the safe side that you don't err in judging who are God's children.

That they are more spiritual then practicing Christian's, well, it is not a competition, or a pageant. In some cases you maybe wrong and in other cases you maybe right. Spirituality is fluid and fluctuates over time. Sorry, but i believe It is a nonsensical, unnecessary and imprecise point to make.

If they are more spiritual than practicing Christians, then Christians might be served well to follow them! Something is working for them that allows them to "follow God", in deeds if not in name, that Christians aren't doing. Jesus says "follow me". Who is it that follows then? The one professing a religious belief, or the one bringing Light and Truth into the world through walking in Spirit? Who do you think God "accepts"?

I don't know if that is true. I have seen no evidence to suggest it is true.

Then clearly you are making deeply uniformed judgments of former "successful" Christians. You really need to talk with those you are passing judgment on. You'll have overwhelming amounts of evidence offered to you. Just ask them.

Instead, he gave the Church the Holy Spirit, who would teach them all truth. So yes, man's modern idea of the Church is nonsense, contradictory and makes a mockery of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

How does one not make a mockery of the Spirit? How does one "obey" God? What is this Truth that the Spirit teaches, and how does this happen, and then how does one know?

I have a very strong impression you judge others on beliefs, how they conceptualize things and how well it agrees with your thoughts. Is that how Spirit judges?

How do you determine that. Do the walk more old ladies across the street or give regularly to charities. There is no possible way you could know that for a surety. How have you determined the religiosity of a Christian. By his church attendance or his payment of tithes and offering.

The Spirit discerns. How is it Jesus said this to the religious judgers of his day? Oh yes, "If you had know the Father you would have known me". Something like that. In other words, I am saying many who reject Christianity do so because they actually listen to Spirit, even if they can't fit that deep understanding within any sort of religious language or contexts. They don't need to! I'd be careful to judge another man's servant.

I'll spell it out for you. If an atheist rejects traditional religious beliefs, including the idea of a physical resurrection, including the idea of life after death, a God who sends to heaven or hell, or even the idea of God Himself, and yet bears the fruit of the Spirit in love and in deed, who sees others with compassion and so forth, then it is they who are in fact "following Christ", more than those who think having the right beliefs or correct professions of religious faith are.

I am striving to live that law but my success rate is not good, hence the long periods of time I spend on my knees in prayer and supplication.

And this is the source of why you judge others. You are applying a measuring stick of your own standards to yourself, and condemn others as "failed", because it is a compensation mechanism to help you accept yourself against your own self-judgments.

I can tell you the secret to overcoming this, if you really want to know. And yes, I am an authority on this. But you've got to be ready to let go of everything. You see, I think in reality, when I hear Christians judging others as this, they have not surrendered everything to God. They are trying to "achieve" God, and hence as they fail they hate themselves, which leads to them hating others.

Those that judge others like this don't know the love of God in themselves yet, and are therefore unable to love others as God loves. Once they have experienced that Love within themselves, they can see God in everyone, even if the other can't see it in themselves. They no longer judge others by these false standards we apply to ourselves as measures of success or failure, religious or otherwise. Do you want to hear more?

I'm going to leave it at this for now.

 

[Jumi]

I know of no way to eradicate racism, do you?

I've seen examples of familiarity erasing racism and homophobia. Friendship is stronger.

 

[Serenity7855]

Serenity7855 said: "None of this is discriminatory. They are laws, no different then not being allowed to Jay walk."

Laws? They are a little more extreme than jay walking, so do you think these laws are OK because they are in the bible and condoned by the perfect God? I guess there will always be blindness and a suitable jay walking answer for the so called wisdom written in this book.

You said discriminatory, they are not discriminatory, they are non-sequitirs. I have trivialise it because of its irrelevance. I could take each verse you have provided, put it back into context, and explain it's real meaning, however, that would take this discussion way off course, and that then becomes confusing for me, and anyone who reads this. I am too old to keep different topics separate in my mind. They alway end up intermingled.

Serenity7855 said: "I believe the earth to be 4.54 billions years old. Surely you can see the stupidity in thinking that it is only a few thousand years old. Take a look at the theory of evolution if you want to dismiss that fallacy. I have absolute belief in evolution, until a better explanation is discovered, I accept the scientific theory completely. Why would you think any different. What have I said in my post to give you that impression."

How would I know what type of religion you are and what you actually believe? You could have been a new earth or an old earth creationist, a catholic, Mormon, evangelical Protestant or one of the other variations and cults. I do know however that you dislike angry atheists, however some of the anger I believe could likely be justified.

You could not know what my beliefs are, however, you have just assumed that I do not believe in evolution, as you have assumed that i am a member of a main stream religion. If you asked me I would tell you. I have nothing to hide, and I try hard to comply with the commandment not to bare false witness. I have nothing to say, unless asked, about those who believe this stuff. I just ignore their claims because I think I know better.

 

[JoStories]

I see quite a bit of similarity between alcohol and religion. Both can be relatively benign, but to certain individuals or when used in certain ways, both can be harmful.

You say you were a nurse; if so, I'm sure you saw people whose religion brought them extra grief instead of solace (e.g. "I prayed for my spouse's cancer to be healed but it wasn't. I guess I didn't have enough faith. If I had been a better Christian/Muslim/whatever, my prayer would have been answered. His cancer is my fault.") or provided comfort, but in a way that just made things worse (e.g. "oh, I don't need to go for that procedure. God's watching over me. He will provide.").

I am nothing but impeccably honest. Yes, I have seen faith used in ways that were harmful in my practice. I have seen alleged Christians fight death tooth and nail, which I have never undestood because if they do believe in heaven, why fight going there? Its as if they fear they are wrong. And yes, I have seen scientologists and so on refuse treatment and pretend that God will heal them. I ask them this: Why do you think that God created medicines and so on through the hands of doctors? Do you not think that might be God's way of doing things? Some see it, some don't. I get your point Penguin, I honestlly do, but I have also seen it do great good and because of that, I will not acquiese that in all cases you are right because I have seen it and know for fact you are not 100% correct. As for alcoholics, etc, again, yes, there are clear parallels. But also again, I have seen it help and that is enough for me.

 

[JoStories]

I've seen examples of familiarity erasing racism and homophobia. Friendship is stronger.

True. However, as recent as the last election, I saw people up here in the northeast with images of the President with his head and a monkey's body and they thought that funny. I fervently hope to see the end of racism in my lifetime but I am not naive enough to hold my breath on that.

 

[Smart_Guy]

True. However, as recent as the last election, I saw people up here in the northeast with images of the President with his head and a monkey's body and they thought that funny. I fervently hope to see the end of racism in my lifetime but I am not naive enough to hold my breath on that.

Well, they call that freedom of speech. Why would speech of racism be bad? People are entitled to speek freely!

I'm being sarcastic of course. I'm with you in what you say

 

[Deidre]

I know that this might sound surprising to whom knows my worldview, but I am seriously reconsidering my atheism (and naturalism).

I have been thinking a lot recently about the Universe and the place we occupy in it. And I asked myself the question: is that really all so pointless? Do we really evolve, live, die and that's it? Isn't maybe possible that humanity occupies a special place in the great scheme of things?

If we collect all the arguments that hint at the possibility of God, we cannot really see one that sets the issue. But all of them could give us some cumulative pieces of evidence all pointing to a possible trascendent reality. This is also the process we use to provide evidence in science.

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

I also considered the fine tuning argument as one of the strongest ones in support of a non natural origin of conscious beings. The chances of life are so negligible that it seems really a stretch to believe that consciousness can arise out of unconscious processes. We should expect a Universe just filled with dead things and not one with life. Especially not one with introspective life, or life that goes beyond the immediate survival instincts: i.e life that can give the Universe itself a meaning.

But the key moment was this morning. And it was not a mere rational analysis. I just had a look out of my window. When I saw the mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding me, I experienced a moment in which I felt one with everything. All the long term pointlessness of my naturalistic view vanished. That was stunning and something I never felt before. I don't know if that can be considered a mystic experience, but it felt like one.

At the moment, I am a bit confused and still thinking about it. My Christian friend thinks that God is claiming me back, and, for the first time since a long time, I cannot definetely rule that out.


Ciao

- viole

I'd be interested to see where your journey takes you.