Losing my atheism (my new spiritual journey)

[Windwalker]

I'd be interested to see where your journey takes you.

It was an April fools joke she was playing on everyone. Her "joke" keeps on giving and giving.....

 

[Serenity7855]

Explain.

Straw Man

A straw man is a common reference argument and is an informal fallacy based on false representation of an opponent's argument.

 

[Deidre]

It was an April fools joke she was playing on everyone. Her "joke" keeps on giving and giving.....

Oh! I didn't read too far into the thread, I see. That's a good one.

 

[Jumi]

A straw man is a common reference argument and is an informal fallacy based on false representation of an opponent's argument.

Everyone knows what a straw man argument is. Where did you see a straw man?

 

[Serenity7855]

Everyone knows what a straw man argument is. Where did you see a straw man?

Apparently not Jumi

 

[Jumi]

True. However, as recent as the last election, I saw people up here in the northeast with images of the President with his head and a monkey's body and they thought that funny. I fervently hope to see the end of racism in my lifetime but I am not naive enough to hold my breath on that.

I think people make silly representations of every president, unless they are really dictators who are afraid of those kind of things.

 

[Jumi]

Apparently not Jumi

I'd like you to explain how you saw the argument as a straw man. It would help everyone understand what you think since your thought seems unusual.

 

[JoStories]

Well, they call that freedom of speech. Why would speech of racism be bad? People are entitled to speek freely!

I'm being sarcastic of course. I'm with you in what you say

You are, of course, correct. They have the right to freedom of speech but IMO, there should be a limit to that concept. For example, I am firmly against stories written that depict pedophilic plots. And I find that hanging one's opinions on freedom of speech to be an example of cowardice, particularly when the things spoken are inflammatory and revolting. And yes, smart guy, I knew you were joking!

 

[JoStories]

I think people make silly representations of every president, unless they are really dictators who are afraid of those kind of things.

I personally have never seen one prior to this president, iow, the color of his skin is what was the issue when it never should have been, for anyone with an iq over 40, or, failing that, at least being an adult. I have never done that myself, although I will admit that after Bush the 2nd left office, I did and do at times refer to him as The Shrub as I find his years were a complete debacle from start to finish.

 

[Jumi]

I personally have never seen one prior to this president, iow, the color of his skin is what was the issue when it never should have been, for anyone with an iq over 40, or, failing that, at least being an adult. I have never done that myself, although I will admit that after Bush the 2nd left office, I did and do at times refer to him as The Shrub as I find his years were a complete debacle from start to finish.

I saw plenty of depictions of Bush II as a monkey when he was still president.

 

[JoStories]

I saw plenty of depictions of Bush II as a monkey when he was still president.

Interesting. I didn't, as I said. I live in the northeast and sometime....just sometimes,we are less bigoted than some areas. Not always mind you...just some.

 

[Smart_Guy]

...there should be a limit to that concept...

That's the key phrase and I see it is common sense, I agree. Unfortunately people fail to see something so clear. Some people keep saying freedom of speech is an absolute open choice that has no limits until they get burned at some point, and only then they realize how everything has a rational limit.

 

[JoStories]

That's the key phrase and I see it is common sense, I agree. Unfortunately people fail to see something so clear. Some people keep saying freedom of speech is an absolute open choice that has no limits until they get burned at some point, and only then they realize how everything has a rational limit.

Agreed, but does it help the image the world has of my country to allow pedophiles to publish how to stories, or members of the KKK to publish their offense rhetoic and so on. No. We look like total arses. It seems to me that we have taken things way too far. Like being able to have a gun,carry it in a concealed manner and not have to have a permit. Like we need more GD freaking guns here. Ugh!

 

[Bunyip]

Agreed, but does it help the image the world has of my country to allow pedophiles to publish how to stories, or members of the KKK to publish their offense rhetoic and so on. No. We look like total arses. It seems to me that we have taken things way too far. Like being able to have a gun,carry it in a concealed manner and not have to have a permit. Like we need more GD freaking guns here. Ugh!

I can't help but agree. Freedom of speech is one of the most abused freedoms. People like the Westboro Baptists have made it a significant issue. Freedom of speech should not exclude hate laws.

 

[Jumi]

I think people like the Westboro Baptists should be allowed to say in full what they believe, no matter how ridiculous or offensive. What they shouldn't be allowed to do is intrude on other people like funerals while doing it.

 

[Bunyip]

I think people like the Westboro Baptists should be allowed to say in full what they believe, no matter how ridiculous or offensive. What they shouldn't be allowed to do is intrude on other people like funerals while doing it.

Sure. There is a time and a place for free speech, not carte blanch.

 

[JoStories]

I think people like the Westboro Baptists should be allowed to say in full what they believe, no matter how ridiculous or offensive. What they shouldn't be allowed to do is intrude on other people like funerals while doing it.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. There has got to be a limit to what people are allowed to get away with and hate speech, which is what that church spews, is against, IMO, the common good. To the rest of the world, it makes us, as in the usa, schmucks. Of course, I totally agree they should be prohibited from their intrusions at funerals and the like but it seems to me that freedom of speech has been taken to a level that is unacceptable.

 

[Jumi]

Well I'm not American, but I don't think anyone thinks Westboro Baptists are representative of the US. It's true that they are against the common good as we perceive it, but that's their right. I don't think it helps keeping them under strict censorship, that would probably lead them to be more destructive rather than solve the problem.

I think they serve us all as a counter-example. I accept we might have to disagree on this.

 

[Serenity7855]

I'm glad you're saying this explicitly. I wanted it to be clear I did not agree with your statement, "Yes, you are absolutely right. It is the failed Christian that has the nastiest of mouths". You said this in such a way as to say you absolutely agreed with me it is the failed Christian, etc. That's how I managed to interpret your words. It's how you phrased it. It's how someone else could hear them the way you stated it.

If you are saying that it is Christians, or, in my opinion, wannabe christians, who are the failed Christians, then I do agree with you. If you are saying that Atheists are failed Christians, then I disagree with you. That is just about as plain as I can make it. If I have phrased it wrong then I apologise, but that is how I see it that is my colloquialism.

I very much disagree with your view that those who leave Christianity did so because they were not fully committed.

Well, that is, of course, your prerogative. It is an absolute to me. When driving a manual car, you put it into first gear and then move off by depressing the accelerator and releasing the clutch. When the revs reach a certain level you change it up a gear, before damaging the engine by over revving. Change to soon and the car will judder to a standstill. To do it at the right time is essential to have a smooth change and, therefore, a comfortable ride. Those who do not have the basics of how to start the car will get nowhere on their journey, those who change gear to soon will come to an abrupt halt, making their journey short and bumpy. Those who do their home work and study the controls of the car, learning how best to change gear, then adding additional knowledge by checking the water, oil and tyre pressure, will succeed in achieving a safe, comfortable and rewarding journey. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. It is not so much the commitment as it is the preparations and dedication. Getting it right.

That sounds nice on paper, until you actually meet with and talk with actual ExChristians. Most were the most dedicated Christians of all. Hence why now the most pissed off.

They, and you, may have thought that they were the most dedicated Christians of all, however, you are both clearly mistaken. If they were as you say they are, or, if you were as you say you were, then we would not be having this debate, because you would be a convert who has been converted by the Holy Ghost. I do not know what you did or didn't do, I don't know you, but something was wrong in your lifestyle that prevented the conversion, that damned your progression. I am not even going to hazard a guess or make a suggestion. You need to study the scriptures to find what is expected of you, then check yourself to see what you have, or have not, done. I guarantee you that if you do all that you can do to adhere to gospel principle you will receive the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.


3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Have you? What is it to "succeed" as being a Christian?

By having the power of the Holy Ghost, testify to your very soul, that it is true.

Is it something you accomplish through achieving perfection?

Perfection is unattainable in this life.

I sincerely would like to hear what this means to you. What is the measure of success to you that you attribute to yourself?

I strived, every day, to keep the commandments of God, i strived to avoid the sins of commission and ommission. I adopted the lifestyle of a Christian as best as I can. It wasn't simple, but it was achievable. My conversion came by way of a sacred epiphany.

And if the day comes when you lose your faith in the religion (note how I said that),

That is an impossibility. The Holy Ghost has testified to my soul that God lives and loves me. I can no more deny that as I could deny that night follows day. Once you have been converted you can never go back to your previous self. Only the sons of perdition can do that, and their reward is outer darkness.

will you then agree with those like yourself who try to say you never were committed to it?

I would have to because I know that if I lose my faith, then I must have done something wrong, so I would try again, and again, and again, until I succeed, and that is exactly what I did.

As I have received the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is extremely unlikely.

That may give you an illusion that there's nothing wrong with your religion to say no "true Christian" (like yourself!), would leave the religion, but that of course is pure fiction.

Again your opinion, however, it is an illogical and irrational one.

Ask those who were in it and left how sincere and committed they were.

They cannot be the judge of their own level of sincerity and commitment. Surely that is arrogance. Only God can judge them.

But maybe you shouldn't if you don't want your faith in the religion to be rattled hearing their gut-wrenching testimonials.

I have tested my own faith and have exposed myself to the fiery darts of Satan, but he has not phased it. I have sympathy for those who have failed, but I also have the honesty to listen to their story and tell them where, I think, they have failed. You are allowed to fail more then once. If at first you don't succeed, try, try and try again. My objection are to how they deal with that failure. It is always, but always, God's fault, or the faith they belonged to, they never see the fault in themselves, where it really is.

Maybe it's easier to believe a fantasy than consider the other person's point of view to be possibly valid from their perspective as actual, true, former Christians.

The truth is a universal constant. It is set in stone and never changes. Once received you stop looking for it.

But they can move forward in their understanding of what God is. They may even need to kiss the religion goodbye if it stands between them and Truth itself. Right? Or is being a "true Christian", following a religion?

Christianity is pure truth. Only in God can the real truth be found. You just have to know where to look, how to draw upon the powers of heaven.

Being a true Christian is to strive to follow the teaching of Christ. Religion involves following man's interpretations of Christ's teachings.

I don't think so at all! The fruits of the Spirit are not doctrinal beliefs. Can you tell me what the fruits of the Spirit are? Aren't those the measure of someone "truly converted by the Holy Spirit"? Or do you disagree?

To put the sentence back into context, I said:

A Christian has been truly converted by the unique power and influence of the Holy Ghost. They have had him testify to their souls that God lives and that His son died for us, all. So enthralling is the epiphany that one recieves they can never go back. You know then that you have been truly converted by the Holy Ghost.

The fruits of the Holy Ghost is "Truth". He testifies to our soils of that which is true. It is separate and distinct to the influence felt by the scriptures. It is a separate and unique power, outside of yourself, that permeates every cell of your body and communicates with it in a sui generis and idiosyncratic way.

Based on what measuring stick of "success", the one you use on yourself? Do you hold that up that others must measure up to what you have succeeded in accomplishing your salvation? I wonder if this is how God measures his children?

I hold no measuring stick that shows my progression. If i did it would be unique to me. The measuring stick is different for every individual who reads it. How could it not be, we are all individuals. The measuring stick results are in the possession of God. He will determine when and if you have been truly prepared to come to know Him and his marvelous work and wonder. He is perfect, and therefore, the best judge of our progression. The measuring stick is the Scriptures, the book of commandments, and the degree in which you keep to it precepts and principles determines the mark you attain on it. But that mark is determined by God.

Salvation is a gift given to all men. It is exaltation that we strive for. That is why Born Again Christians think they have paid for their ticket into heaven, because they confess that Jesus is the Christ. And they have, only they fail to understand what salvation means and completely omit exaltation from their doctrine.

I wonder if God thinks he is?

I do not know

Come to think of it, Jesus rejects many people who professed his name.

And why do you think that is.

Matthew 15:3-9

This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

I wonder what the true measure of a spiritual life is then?

Again, I do not know

It can't be following all the law. Jesus didn't accept those who did. Something was missing in them.

Yes, and he tells us exactly what that is.

Matthew 15:3-9

This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

I think that something that was missing can be found in a whole lot of atheists before they can be found in Christians who in fact don't know God, who don't walk in the Spirit.

Atheist do not believe in the existence of God, therefore, nothing that is missing, that is in anyway related to God, can be found in the atheist. That is just wishfull thinking. Rationalising the failure rather then admitting it was you who failed and not God. You walked away from him. He is still there waiting for you.

I think it's better to use the measuring stick of Spirit, just to be on the safe side that you don't err in judging who are God's children.

I am not sure as to what you are saying here.

If they are more spiritual than practicing Christians, then Christians might be served well to follow them!

That is a big "if" and I get the impression that you want it to be like that. It makes the failure easier to accept.

Something is working for them that allows them to "follow God", in deeds if not in name, that Christians aren't doing.

How can they make that determination when they have never been a Christian. Of course a contented atheist is far more happier then a failed Christian. How much more happier is a converted Christian then an atheist though?

Jesus says "follow me". Who is it that follows then? The one professing a religious belief, or the one bringing Light and Truth into the world through walking in Spirit? Who do you think God "accepts"?

The converted Christian, plain and simple, however, I will withhold my opinions on the atheist, who is as worthy as a converted Christian. God will judge them accordingly.

Then clearly you are making deeply uniformed judgments of former "successful" Christians.

I make no judgement. That is not my right.

You really need to talk with those you are passing judgment on.

I make no judgement. I do not even have to talk to these Christians. The facts are staring us in the face. It is not my opinion, it is pure fact. They tried to become christians and failed. They did not attain the level necessary to be converted. How do we know that? Easy, they are atheists. No judgement made, just factual observation. You either try and fail, or, you try and succeed. There is no grey area, no ifs or buts.

You'll have overwhelming amounts of evidence offered to you. Just ask them.

What possible evidence could anybody offer me? Seriously.

How does one not make a mockery of the Spirit? How does one "obey" God? What is this Truth that the Spirit teaches, and how does this happen, and then how does one know?

Do you really want to know?.

I have a very strong impression you judge others on beliefs, how they conceptualize things and how well it agrees with your thoughts. Is that how Spirit judges?

I do not judge you. I to am imperfect.

The Spirit discerns.

No, it is man who discerns, the spirit knows.

How is it Jesus said this to the religious judgers of his day? Oh yes, "If you had know the Father you would have known me". Something like that.

Because they are one in purpose and not, as the Born Again Christians would have you believe, in being. My son is a spitting image of me, as my other son has the same temperament as me. I could say that "If you had known me you would have known my son". It is the same thing. If you were a Born Again Christian, and failed, then it was they who failed you and not you who failed yourself. They teach more false doctrine then any denomination in existence today, and have the greatest failure rate as well. If I am right, and you tried Christianity by becoming a member of the congregation of a born again Christian church, then please try again. These people turn christianity into a fairy tale and only those who believe in fairy tales succeed in that church, where Satan is at the helm.

In other words, I am saying many who reject Christianity do so because they actually listen to Spirit,

No, they think they listen to Spirit, it is usually themselves and what they want to hear, or what their pastor wants them to hear. You cannot confuse a true communication from the Spirit with your own voice in your head.

even if they can't fit that deep understanding within any sort of religious language or contexts. They don't need to! I'd be careful to judge another man's servant.

Again, I do not judge others. What I say here is either based on fact or my experience.

I'll spell it out for you. If an atheist rejects traditional religious beliefs, including the idea of a physical resurrection, including the idea of life after death, a God who sends to heaven or hell, or even the idea of God Himself, and yet bears the fruit of the Spirit in love and in deed, who sees others with compassion and so forth, then it is they who are in fact "following Christ", more than those who think having the right beliefs or correct professions of religious faith are.

That is possible.

And this is the source of why you judge others.

I do not judge others

You are applying a measuring stick of your own standards to yourself, and condemn others as "failed", because it is a compensation mechanism to help you accept yourself against your own self-judgments.

I am not condemning the failed Christian. I am saying that if they have tried it, and have not been successful, then they have failed. I am not saying that they are even bad people, I am saying that they are failed Christians, and they are, it is fact. It is not a negative, it is a fact. You protest far to much. You are being defensive because that is what you think a failed Christian is defined as. You are seeing insult when their is no insult intended.

I can tell you the secret to overcoming this, if you really want to know. And yes, I am an authority on this. But you've got to be ready to let go of everything. You see, I think in reality, when I hear Christians judging others as this, they have not surrendered everything to God. They are trying to "achieve" God, and hence as they fail they hate themselves, which leads to them hating others.

You are fixated on me judging others. Where in have I judged you?

Those that judge others like this don't know the love of God in themselves yet, and are therefore unable to love others as God loves. Once they have experienced that Love within themselves, they can see God in everyone, even if the other can't see it in themselves. They no longer judge others by these false standards we apply to ourselves as measures of success or failure, religious or otherwise. Do you want to hear more?

How do you know this, you are not a christian, are you, therefore, one must assume that you have zero belief in the existence of a God. According to your signature you have "Multiple Perceptions" so how can you speak on a God that you do not know for sure.

Do I want to hear more? Not really. I am a converted ChristIan, devout in my faith. I am a real bigot, with a closed mind and blinkered vision, when it comes to Christianity. I am extatically happy with my life in the beliefs that I have. If, when I die, I am completely wrong, which I doubt, then I will not care either way as I will be dead. I think you judge me, and my motives, incorrectly. I think you were a Born Again Christian.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And yet another straw man of irrelevance posted just to wind me up.

It's not a straw man, it's a question. You said that the quotes from the Bible weren't discriminatory because "they were laws", so I gave a simple example of discrimination, and asked if that act being made into a law would make it not discriminatory.

It's a very simple question: Is a law banning black people from coming into my shop discriminatory or not? I will interpret the lack of an answer as an inability to answer without contradicting your previous statement.