"Make Rape Legal" Men's Group Plans Events in 43 Countries for Saturday

[Jumi]

You have provided a whole lot of definitions (some of which are irrelevant I might add) but none of them have shown that rape is inherently violent. Taking something that belongs to someone without consent does not in and of itself prove violence. Theft is an example of taking something without violence.

How would you punish someone who, say, drugged you and raped you while you were unconscious?

 

[Jumi]

Statutory rape is often voluntary sex.
Imagine putting an 18 year old kid to death for that.....incredibly evil, eh?

Well that's not rape. Does your country differentiate when both participants are young and one slightly over the limit?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You have provided a whole lot of definitions (some of which are irrelevant I might add) but none of them have shown that rape is inherently violent. Taking something that belongs to someone without consent does not in and of itself prove violence. Theft is an example of taking something without violence.

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually know what rape is.

The act itself (aside from "statutory" rape maybe) is violent in nature. Overpowering a person and penetrating their body is an act of violence in and of itself.

We're not talking about stealing a person's purse here.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well that's not rape.

They call it "rape".
They prosecute for it.
And the perp is on the lifetime sexual predator list.

Does your country differentiate when both participants are young and one slightly over the limit?

It would be hard to say how the courts differentiate between the various types of rape.
But statutory rape can result in life imprisonment.

 

[Revoltingest]

The act itself (aside from "statutory" rape maybe) is violent in nature. Overpowering a person and penetrating their body is an act of violence in and of itself.

We might be using different definitions of "violent" here.
A rape accusation can be the result of inadequate consent, & not violent at all.
Some involve coercion instead of violence.
But some robberies involve shootings & severe beatings.
Why punish such robberies less severely than non-violent rapes?

 

[SkepticThinker]

We might be using different definitions of "violent" here.
A rape accusation can be the result of inadequate consent, & not violent at all.
Some involve coercion instead of violence.
But some robberies involve shootings & severe beatings.
Why punish such robberies less severely than non-violent rapes?

Aside from statutory rape, I don't think I agree that rape can be non-violent. I mean, we're talking about a person forcing himself upon another person. Even if the perpetrator is using coercion or drugging the person so the victim is unconscious during the rape, I would still consider that violent as it violates the person's bodily autonomy.

I don't think I said anything about punishments for different crimes. I'm just saying I think rape, by definition is a violent act.

 

[Revoltingest]

Aside from statutory rape, I don't think I agree that rape can be non-violent. I mean, we're talking about a person forcing himself upon another person. Even if the perpetrator is using coercion or drugging the person so the victim is unconscious during the rape, I would still consider that violent as it violates the person's bodily autonomy.
I don't think I said anything about punishments for different crimes. I'm just saying I think rape, by definition is a violent act.

Yeah....I wouldn't call that violent.
"Involuntary" is a better word.
Why make the distinction?
It would make sense to have more severe punishment for different types of rape.
(Some here have advocated the death penalty for rape, but not for other violent assaults.)

Does a beating violate one's bodily autonomy?
I'm thinking again about the girl who was beaten so badly that she was permanently incapacitated both physically & mentally.
....and of a couple guys I know who never fully recovered.
Are all their situations less horrible than every possible type of rape, even mere lack of full consent due to intoxication?

 

[Jumi]

They call it "rape".
They prosecute for it.
And the perp is on the lifetime sexual predator list.

Well that's not something that exists here, it sounds weird. Though it is illegal in my country to be considerably older and be with an under 16 year old of same or opposite gender. It's not termed rape however.

They call it "rape".
It would be hard to say how the courts differentiate between the various types of rape.
But statutory rape can result in life imprisonment.

That seems to be a country specific problem. Something that should be changed.

 

[Revoltingest]

That seems to be a country specific problem. Something that should be changed.

We can sure agree on that!
A big problem is punishing (for life) a young kid who didn't hurt anyone....just ran afoul of legal prescriptions.

 

[Jumi]

I'm thinking again about the girl who was beaten so badly that she was permanently incapacitated both physically & mentally.
....and of a couple guys I know who never fully recovered.
Are all their situations less horrible than every possible type of rape, even mere lack of full consent due to intoxication?

I see that as also needing similar punishment, yes.

 

[Revoltingest]

I see that as also needing similar punishment, yes.

Dang....we're doing a miserable job of disagreeing.
I might have to resort to name calling.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yeah....I wouldn't call that violent.
"Involuntary" is a better word.
Why make the distinction?

You wouldn't call the act of someone overpowering you and inserting their body parts into yours against your will violent? You'd rather call it "involuntary?" I find that to be the strange distinction being made here.
Let's see what you think about how violent it is when someone is trying to have sex with you and you don't want to have sex with them. I've been raped and let me assure you, it feels pretty violent.

It would make sense to have more severe punishment for different types of rape.
(Some here have advocated the death penalty for rape, but not for other violent assaults.)

I would agree with that as I obviously see consensual statutory rape as a lessor offence than outright rape.
I don't advocate for the death penalty at all, so I wouldn't push for it here.

Does a beating violate one's bodily autonomy?
I'm thinking again about the girl who was beaten so badly that she was permanently incapacitated both physically & mentally.
....and of a couple guys I know who never fully recovered.

I would say it does.

Are all their situations less horrible than every possible type of rape, even mere lack of full consent due to intoxication?

I don't have enough information to say either way. Maybe it's equally as horrible.

 

[Thanda]

How would you punish someone who, say, drugged you and raped you while you were unconscious?

I would put them in jail.

 

[Revoltingest]

You wouldn't call the act of someone overpowering you

The act of "overpowering" is violent.
I use the primary definitions here....
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violent

....You'd rather call it "involuntary?"

No.
I'd apply the word, "involuntary", to when violence isn't used.

I find that to be the strange distinction being made here.

It all goes back to the definition of "violence".
This word is not some intensifier to be used to describe all hated wrongful acts.
Its application is more specific, ie, "acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force".

Let's see what you think about how violent it is when someone is trying to have sex with you and you don't want to have sex with them. I've been raped and let me assure you, it feels pretty violent.

To make it a personal horror of mine doesn't change the definitions of the words, no matter how gut wrenching it would be.

I would agree with that as I obviously see consensual statutory rape as a lessor offence than outright rape.
I don't advocate for the death penalty at all, so I wouldn't push for it here.
:
I would say it does.

Woo hoo....detente!

I don't have enough information to say either way. Maybe it's equally as horrible.

Aye, it varies with circumstances.

 

[Thanda]

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually know what rape is.

The act itself (aside from "statutory" rape maybe) is violent in nature. Overpowering a person and penetrating their body is an act of violence in and of itself.

We're not talking about stealing a person's purse here.

No we're not. We're talking about stealing something very important to someone. But there are many cases where theft involves the taking of something very important to the victim.

And even if I were to concede for the sake of argument that rape is violent (I'm not sure why statutory rape is suddenly different - but it proves my point) we are still left with the question of why rape of all assaults deserves death or castration while other assault don't deserve such a harsh punishment.

 

[columbus]

I'm just saying I think rape, by definition is a violent act.

This used to be the case here in the USA, but not any more. Feminists have pushed the definition to include almost any sex a woman regrets having.
Julian Assange was accused of rape and Sweden tried to extradict him. There was no force involved. Here on RF there was a whole episode about a woman out east. She invited a man who had been hitting on her to sleep in her bed with her. She let him take off her underwear and have sex with her. After she thought about it for a couple of days she decided that he had raped her and filed charges. The fact that she'd never actually said Yes made her a rape victim in a lot of people's minds.
I suggested a new category of rape to go along with statutory and violent, "voluntary rape".
This did not go over well with the feminists.
Tom

 

[SkepticThinker]

The act of "overpowering" is violent.
I use the primary definitions here....
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violent

I think #2 on your list applies as well.

Also, " using or involving the use of physical force to cause harm or damage to someone or something."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violent

Or, "an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power,as against rights or laws."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence

No.
I'd apply the word, "involuntary", to when violence isn't used.

The only time I can imagine that violence would not be used is in the case of statutory rape. I consider drugging someone and having sex with them an act of violence, even if you apparently do not.

It all goes back to the definition of "violence".
This word is not some intensifier to be used to describe all hated wrongful acts.
Its application is more specific, ie, "acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force".

I don't think I'm using the word to describe all "hated wrongful acts." I'm using the word to describe an act where somebody is forced to have sex with a person against their will. I consider a person who is forcing their body upon mine, whether I'm conscious or not, to be committing an act of violence against me.

To make it a personal horror of mine doesn't change the definitions of the words, no matter how gut wrenching it would be.

It may give you a different perspective, that's all.

Woo hoo....detente!

Aye, it varies with circumstances.

Indeed, it does.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think #2 on your list applies as well.

Also, " using or involving the use of physical force to cause harm or damage to someone or something."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violent

Or, "an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power,as against rights or laws."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence



The only time I can imagine that violence would not be used is in the case of statutory rape. I consider drugging someone and having sex with them an act of violence, even if you apparently do not.


I don't think I'm using the word to describe all "hated wrongful acts." I'm using the word to describe an act where somebody is forced to have sex with a person against their will. I consider a person who is forcing their body upon mine, whether I'm conscious or not, to be committing an act of violence against me.

It may give you a different perspective, that's all.



Indeed, it does.

I think we're using different definitions of "rape" too.
They've broadened here.
The old FBI definition didn't even include any sexual assault against males.
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...ew-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions

 

[SkepticThinker]

No we're not. We're talking about stealing something very important to someone. But there are many cases where theft involves the taking of something very important to the victim.

We're talking about much more than that.
We're talking about violating a person's bodily autonomy, and most likely destroying them emotionally and mentally and in many cases physically as well.

And even if I were to concede for the sake of argument that rape is violent (I'm not sure why statutory rape is suddenly different - but it proves my point) we are still left with the question of why rape of all assaults deserves death or castration while other assault don't deserve such a harsh punishment.

My issue was with your assertion that rape is not inherently violent.

Someone else advocated castration and the death penalty, which I don't agree with either.[/QUOTE]

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think we're using different definitions of "rape" too.
They've broadened here.
The old FBI definition didn't even include any sexual assault against males.
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...ew-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions

That's interesting in and of itself. I wonder why not.