Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[Mr Spinkles]

Just amazing, Muslims don't have the right to live by their Islamic standards and views even in their countries. How arrogant!!

Who suggested that? Second, why is it necessary to execute OTHER people, in order for you to live by your Islamic standards and views? I have my own standards and views that I live by. Somehow, I am able to do this without demanding that the girl walking down the street, wearing the Muslim headscarf, be executed for outraging my views, or for leading people away from science and secularism.

Speaking of the headscarf .... I seem to remember you and Sajdah were pretty upset about the French law banning it in public schools. (I don't support the ban by the way.) It seems you don't really have a good reason to oppose this ban, because you don't really believe in religious freedom. If you had the Power, society would be Islamic. The majority in France have the Power, so in France the society is secular. You were just upset because you want the Power.

 

[maro]

in a society where even the most sober judges believe in sorcery, jinns, and other nonsense.

not4me, it's because I respect you that I say: I think you are too smart and curious to believe in this nonsense. I thought you wanted to see the Arab world embrace science? The belief that anyone is a sorcerer or has magical powers is unscientific superstition, and it is even more unscientific to convict a man for using powers which have not been proven to exist.

I understand that the belief in the Unseen is no more than an unscientific superstition and nonsense to you...including the belief in God , angels ,jinn ,magic and hasad...etc.
but guess what ? we are not obliged to povide scientific evidence for our religious beliefs..because thay are based on revealation ,not on science
if you can't swallow this fact...then we have a serious problem here ,MS

I want my society to embrace science...does that mean i will stop believing in the unseen or in the revealation untill it 's scientifically proven ?! No ,i won't....does that mean i will stop acting based on what i believe?! No ,i won't

' Evidence ' for us is not only scientific inspite the fact it's for you...and this is basically what makes us muslims....if you have a problem with that...then you have a problem with us being muslims

I hope this gives you a clue about what i am talking about :

if materialist philosophies and civilizations, including western civilization, have restricted the paths of knowledge to two - reason, and experiments which can by grasped by man's senses -, it is because of the absence of the philosophy of vicegerency from these civilizations. They do not grant man any means of knowledge outside himself and the world of the senses, the world of experiment, because it sees him as the lord of his existence, not as the vicegerent of a God who is separate from this world, free of involvement, incarnation, or unity with this world.

By contrast, the Islamic attitude towards the paths of human knowledge, based as it is on the philosophy of vicegerency, does not belittle the power and status of reason and the senses, but rather adds to them and controls them. It adds to them the guidance of divine revelation, which is displayed in the proclamation of the Quran and the prophetic commentary on this proclamation, the Sunna of the Prophet, considering this revelation a divine guidance for man from the omniscient Lord (To Whom be ascribed all Perfection and Majesty), bearing to man news of the unseen world, and of decrees which human reason cannot grasp unaided and which do not come within the scope of human senses or experimentation. This is because human reason and human senses are contingent in their abilities and comprehension, in line with the contingency of all man's capabilities.

In addition, it also adds to the paths of human knowledge, the path of spiritual perception, the illumination of the heart, that knowledge which does not come as a fruit of reason or the senses, but rather consists of divine insinuations and celestial lights which shine into the heart.

Thus, upon the philosophy of vicegerency is based a distinctive theory of epistemology, seeing man as the vicegerent of God (To Whom be ascribed all Perfection and Majesty), and therefore seeing his knowledge as standing not just at the level of what he can comprehend for himself, and what he can experience of the world as perceived by his senses, but rather seeing him as having other paths of knowledge bestowed on him by his Creator (who has no equal), who made him his vicegerent to populate and civilize the world he lives in.

The Vicegerency of Man

 

[maro]

If their standards were humane, there would be no debate.

inhumane from whose perspective ? and what is exacty meant by "there would be no debate " ? does that mean you might lead an army and invade our countries in order to impose your humane standards ? !!

 

[maro]

If you had the Power, society would be Islamic. The majority in France have the Power, so in France the society is secular. You were just upset because you want the Power.

In islamic society ,we are supposed to respect other religions and allow them to pratice freely...we were upset because secular socities are supposed to do the same

I can't see your point ,honestly

 

[Sahar]

Who suggested that?

Penguin.

Second, why is it necessary to execute OTHER people, in order for you to live by your Islamic standards and views?

It's not. Other people will be executed when it's proven that they committed certain crimes.

I have my own standards and views that I live by. Somehow, I am able to do this without demanding that the girl walking down the street, wearing the Muslim headscarf, be executed for outraging my views, or for leading people away from science and secularism.

I have my own standards too and I didn't demand the Muslim girl (although if I had the chance to advise her, I would) let alone the non Muslim girl walking down the street to wear the Muslim headscarf or to be executed for outraging my views...

Speaking of the headscarf .... I seem to remember you and Sajdah were pretty upset about the French law banning it in public schools.

So now I don't have the right to be upset?

It seems you don't really have a good reason to oppose this ban, because you don't really believe in religious freedom. If you had the Power, society would be Islamic. The majority in France have the Power, so in France the society is secular. You were just upset because you want the Power.

Of course the society is secular and I am not expecting it to live by my Islamic standards but at least can't they stop their hypocrite bragging and lectures about freedom, how is that?

 

[Sahar]

In islamic society ,we are supposed to respect other religions and allow them to pratice freely...we were upset because secular socities are supposed to do the same

I can't see your point ,honestly

No where, Mayada, I suggested that non Muslims can't practice their religions freely.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

So now I don't have the right to be upset?

You do, of course.

Of course the society is secular and I am not expecting it to live by my Islamic standards but at least can't they stop their hypocrite bragging and lectures about freedom, how is that?

I agree with that.

No where, Mayada, I suggested that non Muslims can't practice their religions freely.

I apologize if I misconstrued what you said, but you did say:

Sorcery is a grave sin and can take the person out of Islam. Owners of such corrupting channels are the ones who deserve punishment. I seriously wonder why such channels broadcast on our Satellites!! Serious measures against such channels should be taken, like banning them? Where are the responsible authorities?

We were talking about a TV show where the host (supposedly) predicts the future. Some people in the US and Britain believe in this "New Age" stuff, some of those people posted on this thread. It doesn't sound like they are free to practice their religion if the owners of their TV channels "are the ones who deserve punishment".

 

[Sahar]

Sorcery is a grave sin and can take the person out of Islam. Owners of such corrupting channels are the ones who deserve punishment. I seriously wonder why such channels broadcast on our Satellites!! Serious measures against such channels should be taken, like banning them? Where are the responsible authorities?

We were talking about a TV show where the host (supposedly) predicts the future. Some people in the US and Britain believe in this "New Age" stuff, some of those people posted on this thread. It doesn't sound like they are free to practice their religion if the owners
of their TV channels "are the ones who deserve punishment".

Sorry, I don't live in the US or Britain and the show is not directed to the American or British viewers. Never heard there is a such thing where I live.
In addition, there is a difference between fooling Muslims and corrupting their beliefs and practicing another religion.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I understand that the belief in the Unseen is no more than an unscientific superstition and nonsense to you...including the belief in God , angels ,jinn ,magic and hasad...etc. but guess what ? we are not obliged to povide scientific evidence for our religious beliefs..because thay are based on revealation ,not on science
if you can't swallow this fact...then we have a serious problem here ,MS

Of course you're not obliged to back up your beliefs with evidence ... but in an open discussion involving people of many points of view, it helps. Christians have their revelations, too, as do many people. Physical evidence, when available, is the only thing that it is possible for everyone to agree on.

I wonder if we can agree on something: can we agree that sometimes, what is blamed on jinn or magic is actually misapprehension, or imagination, or a strange natural phenomena, or deception?

And can we further agree that, to convict someone of using magic or jinns in any specific case, the prosecution must provide solid evidence; and that evidence should be just as unquestionable and convincing as the evidence that would be used to convict a murderer. Do you agree?

' Evidence ' for us is not only scientific inspite the fact it's for you...and this is basically what makes us muslims....if you have a problem with that...then you have a problem with us being muslims

Did you happen to read what I posted about "mesmerism" in France around 1800? Post #63 http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1929851-post63.html

I hope this gives you a clue about what i am talking about :

The Vicegerency of Man

Thanks for the information, I read it and it is interesting. I understand your point. Christians, Jews, Mormons, and Hindus of all different schools and sects say the same thing. Christians know Jesus was the true Son of God, Mormons know Joseph Smith was the last true prophet, etc. How can they be sure they know these things? Through revelation. It's curious that the only knowledge people ever receive through revelation is knowledge that can't be proven. No one received a revelation that told them how to create vaccines, or what keeps the planets in motion, or how to prove Fermi's last mathematical theorem. Catholics know the bread and wine is transformed, and Christ's blood and body are truly present, during the Eucharist. They know it through revelation. No need for arrogant scientific evidence. I would argue, therefore, that they do not *know* it, they only believe it. The same is true of Jinns.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

In addition, there is a difference between fooling Muslims and corrupting their beliefs and practicing another religion.

I see the distinction you are making. Pagans are free to practice their religion privately, but they can't express it in public, as Muslims can. Other religions should be free, but not equal. Is that accurate?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Sorry, I don't live in the US or Britain and the show is not directed to the American or British viewers. Never heard there is a such thing where I live.

True, but the TV show you were talking about was produced in Lebanon and directed to Lebanese viewers, some of whom must certainly believe in this stuff or the channel wouldn't exist.

 

[.lava]

I would argue, therefore, that they do not *know* it, they only believe it. The same is true of Jinns.

is that what you "know"?
it is not same with the jinns, Mr.Sprinkles. there's a spesific science about them. some part of that science is learned by choice of person. the other part and the most mysteries part is not optional. people can not chose to learn that but God choses them to teach. maybe Western science has a lack of knowledge of this subject simply by seeing it as fairy tales but it is not the same with our people

.

 

[Sahar]

1. Broadcasting a show on TV is not a religious practice.
2. the guy was a Muslim
3. Suppose he was a pagan, can't Pagans practice their religion without corrupting Muslims' beliefs? If they believe that they can predict the future, fine but why starting a show where Muslim viewers will ask them about their future. A Muslim girl calls "hi, I am in love with a guy but our families oppose our marriage, will I ever be able to marry him?" How is this a religious practice?

 

[Sahar]

True, but the TV show you were talking about was produced in Lebanon and directed to Lebanese viewers, some of whom must certainly believe in this stuff or the channel wouldn't exist.

Actually you don't know how things are going on here. Here, the Arabs watch almost the same satellite channels, the Arabic satellites can be counted on fingers of the one hand, the most used are the Egyptian satellite Nilesat and another Gulf satellite Arabsat. So I was basically referring to such channels that air on such satellites.

 

[Sahar]

In addition, I have no doubt that say 95% of the viewers are Muslims. Just like those Muslims who go to a fraud to ask him about their future or to protect them against sihr or hasad and in returns he takes their money. They are ignorant Muslims whose faith is weak. They should be educated and their religious awareness should be raised. And such person of fraud should be arrested, he is fooling people to take their money.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Good points not4me, but here's what I'm getting at: what happens if atheists, pagans, Christians, Jews, etc. decide Muslims don't need TV shows to practice their religion? What if I decide that a show with an Imam talking about magic spells and jinns corrupts people's beliefs, so I want him arrested? I understand that guy is Muslim but as you know, you are not the spokesperson for every Muslim.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

In addition, I have no doubt that say 95% of the viewers are Muslims. Just like those Muslims who go to a fraud to ask him about their future or to protect them against sihr or hasad and in returns he takes their money. They are ignorant Muslims whose faith is weak. They should be educated and their religious awareness should be raised. And such person of fraud should be arrested, he is fooling people to take their money.

Actually I do not really disagree with you here, except for some caveats.

 

[Sahar]

Mr Spinkles, why going into a hypothetical situation? What do you think of the example of banning the usage of the loud speakers for Adhan in many Western countries? They think it's harmful and thus it's banned. Here we are talking about a real religious practice that is banned because it "harms" the community.

 

[Father Heathen]

Just amazing, Muslims don't have the right to live by their Islamic standards and views even in their countries. How arrogant!!

Upholding the basic human rights and civil liberties of every man, woman and child on this earth takes a priority over respecting "cultural differences", especially when said cultures are unjust, oppressive and barbarous.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Actually you don't know how things are going on here. Here, the Arabs watch almost the same satellite channels, the Arabic satellites can be counted on fingers of the one hand, the most used are the Egyptian satellite Nilesat and another Gulf satellite Arabsat. So I was basically referring to such channels that air on such satellites.

Ah, you're right, thanks for correcting me there. It still must be true that some of the 5% non-Muslim viewers must be pagans, mystics, non-traditional Christians, and so on, no?