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Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
i want to know one thing, how does a non-muslim whose parents are in a retirement village honour, respect and care for his/her parents?
Depends.

If they're in a retirement community because that's what they want, then they honour their parents by respecting their wishes.

If they're in a nursing home because they need specialized care, then they honour their parents by providing them with the care and comfort they wouldn't be able to provide themselves.

In other cases, the parents being in a retirement village may be a matter of practical necessity: retirement villages are generally designed to be accessible for people with disabilities, and they allow the parents to interact with their peers.

Often, an elderly parent may have physical disabilities that make it difficult for them to climb stairs, for instance. And while a person can care for a parent in their home, they can't provide the interaction of a friend... something that might be missing in the home that the children of the parent can provide themselves. I don't think it's a mark of honour or respect to place one's parent in a situation where they feel trapped and lonely, and sometimes the answer to that is a retirement home.

However, I think you may have a false impression of the situation in the West. We generally don't ship our elderly family members off to retirement homes. Here's my own personal experience:

- my paternal grandfather died before retirement age.
- my paternal grandmother ended up in a nursing home, but this was because she required a nurse's care.
- my maternal grandmother and grandfather both continued to live in their house all their lives, and we visited them frequently. After my grandfather died, my grandmother lived on her own, but that's what she wanted: she felt a strong sense of connection to her community, which would've been broken if she moved away to live with us.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
Are you sure that's categorically true? Not all Human Rights are the same and not all violations of Human Rights are the same magnitude. When you say "democracy is secondary" to a person who lives in Egypt, like not4me, it sounds like you are supporting a secular dictatorship, or sectarian violence or political assassinations, or invasion by foreign powers.

Yes, I am sure that that is categorically true. There is a core set of values that everyone agrees on. Reference the UN Human Rights Resolutions for examples. BTW, I would like to see where you gleaned some support for the other things you mentioned in this paragraph from my statements.

There is also no such thing as a "secular dictatorship". Perhaps you are unaware of the term "secular" as applied to governmental structures. The United States was founded as a Secular Constitutional Republic, providing not only basic Civil Rights but ensuring religious equality within the constraints of Law.

You are probably referring to nonviolent civil disobedience, and you are probably referring to egregious violations of Human Rights, but you must make yourself clear.

For example, there are many people who think that any form of capital punishment is a violation of Human Rights. Would you want a U.S. general and his troops to assault the White House, disband Congress, and rewrite our Constitution in order to end capital punishment?

If you are going to read such silly things into my statements, perhaps I will be unable to make myself clear.

Or should we end it through a democratic process?

Democracy isn't a free for all. A democracy contains certain benchmarks, areas of civil and human rights that should not be impinged upon. The Bill of Rights contained in the US Constitution are an example of this, as are articles in the Constitutions of foreign powers that mirror our Bill of Rights.

A government that claims to be a democracy and that does not contain such limitations on government and lays out the basic, inherent, inalienable rights human beings are entitled to is not a democracy, but a totalitarian anarchy, a tyranny of the majority.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
why is it ok to have FBI's and CIS's but not RP (religious police)??

Because you can claim to be the "One True Religion" all you wish, but the plain fact of the matter is that you are not the "One True Religion", nor are you the only religion on the planet. One of the inherent Rights of human beings is to worship, or not, as their conscious demands.

RP enforce whatever religion they look to, indeed whatever SECT of said religion they look to.

Do you agree that, for example, Sunni RP should monitor Shi'ia people? Or perhaps Wahabi RP monitor everyone? Or perhaps a Taliban style of RP (rhetorical, of course, no one likes them, but it makes the point)?

The FBI/CIA are religiously neutral, secular, who ignore religiously specific laws thus protecting everyone's religious rights, and Human Rights in general. They are actual policing (and intelligence gathering) agencies. They are not out to enforce the religious ideals of one particular religion, or sect thereof, as are the so called Religious "Police".

prove it that islam teaches to stone the rape victim.

Merely going by what people of your faith claim, as seen in the example of the OP and examples of those things I listed. Don't like it, take it up with Saudi, Pakistan, and other places such atrocities occur.

prove it that it is not humane to punish a criminal

Yes, criminals should be punished, for actual crimes. Not executed for something as nebulous and unprovable as "sorcery". Nor should rape victims be punished, nor should people be killed for being gay.

Punishment should also FIT the crime as well.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What hypocrisy?

The "religion of love" looking to kill a guy for something as nebulous and undefined as "sorcery"?

When someone is ignorant of what people believe in, heck, even ignorant of the charges against the man at hand, he shouldn't throw judgments like that in vain.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
When someone is ignorant of what people believe in, heck, even ignorant of the charges against the man at hand
From what I understand he is being charged with black magic, correct? Not only that, but black magic performed on his television show which was ostensibly taped in another country... from the CNN article:

the judges in Medina issued a statement expressing that Sibat deserved to be executed for having continually practiced black magic on his show

As a side note... say there was a country where 'sorcerers' ruled, where Islam was viewed in the same manner as Saudia Arabia views magic, would you be ok with a foreign Muslim visiting that country being apprehended and sentenced to death?
 
I don't know what you mean, but if you mean the picture at that link i have posted, it's tools for various people who got caught doing the same activities, not for the person in this case. By the way, do you believe in demons? :D
I can't read Arabic as you know, you said there were photos of the tools this man allegedly used to commit crimes. I saw some pieces of paper with Arabic written on them, some Pokemon dolls, some jewelry or charms, a hat that says "I heart Jesus", among other things. I saw no "tools" that could plausibly be used to harm anyone.

Thanks for posting the evidence according to the Saudi authorities. I have to look more closely at it, but it appears the man is still not being convicted of doing sorcery in Lebanon. Rather, he is accused of committing fraud and conspiracy to harm people using "sorcery", on Saudi territory. That is different from what I thought was the case, but there are still problems.

First of all, I'm concerned that the Saudi religious police engaged in entrapment. Second, though it would not surprise me if he was a fraud, in that case he can't be a sorcerer, so his offense was deception and taking someone's money, and the punishment should fit the crime. Third, if this TV host truly is a dark wizard a la the Harry Potter children's books ... :rolleyes: ... then he can't be convicted of fraud, and he can't be convicted of conspiring to cast evil spells without solid, scientific proof that he actually has this power.

There is not a single documented case of magic or sorcery that is acceptable to the standards of rigorous, scientific evidence. I would have a very difficult time finding scientists who disagree with this.

You probably think I'm being so skeptical as to be closed-minded. But you have to realize, the history of human civilization is overflowing with superstition and nonsense. According to our ancestors the world was full of demons, witches, werewolves, vampires, and so on. In case after case after case, when an objective scientific approach is applied, the evil spirits vanish. We know from the agonizing experience of history that people will believe they see the influence of demons, witches, monsters, and so forth, many people will confess, even when it isn't true. You don't need to cast a spell on some people to make them go into a hysterical fit. You just have to get them to *believe* a spell has been cast on them. Imagination and superstition do the rest. I could relate countless examples of this. The weight of past experience leaves open the door that every case of supposed "sorcery" is a case of superstition and imagination. The only way to prove one way or the other would be with airtight scientific evidence, especially when a man's life, his wife and five children are at stake.

To answer your question: no, I don't believe in demons. I believe in facts and evidence. I have not seen a shred of evidence that proves this man actually harmed anyone with magical powers, or that he has the ability to do so.

This does not necessarily have to do with my being an atheist, by the way. The Catholic Church and every enlightened Christian since the Dark Ages still occasionally admit they believe demons exist. But they are very skeptical of real-life, contemporary cases because so many have turned out to be clearly deception or self-deception. This is a documented fact, I could provide many examples if you like, it's truly fascinating and eye-opening. I don't expect you to accept jinns don't exist, but I do hope you will apply a skeptical and scientific attitude to each individual case of supposed magic or demons actually intervening in the world. Many physicists believe the three fundamental forces of physics can be combined into a single force, but they are very skeptical of anyone who claims to have discovered it. They believe such a force exists but it would take powerful evidence to prove such-and-such equation is the correct one. I think everyone, including modern-day Muslims, would gain in both wisdom and humanity to adopt this approach, especially considering ancient Muslim scholars contributed so much to science and skepticism.
 
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It was a set up. When he got caught on the delivering time, he freaked out and confessed in the hope to spare him from punishment. He was convincing people that he was performing things for them either to attract their love to them or send others away and even harming them. He was fooling them most of the time and taking the prey money, and sometimes he was doing it for real. Anyhow, all his activities were previously well documented when he was presenting it on tv, and the thing he planned to do in Saudi Arabia was just for confirmation of his evil deeds.
If the accused was confronted by authorities and "freaked out", and confessed to things they accused him of in the hopes of being spared execution, and if he later retracts the confession when he finds out they are executing him anyway, then this is not reliable proof of guilt. Amnesty International says according to the man's lawyer, the Religious Police told him if he confessed he would be allowed to go back to Lebanon. An innocent person might confess in that situation, or a guilty person might confess to crimes greater than the ones actually committed.
 
Tashan said:
In one of the videos that shows him performing on tv before he came to Saudi Arabia and before shutting down that tv, he was pretending to read the Quran but if you focus, you can see that he is changing everything, he change the letters, the word, and the way you pronounce, because the demons wouldn't allow him to read the Quran in a correct manner because it will scare them off. So he just pretend to read the Quran to fool people and make them believe he is using the Quran to do services for them, heal them, etc.
I'm rather skeptical, Tashan. Suppose he really did read the Quran differently, it would still only prove, at absolute most, that the man believes reading it differently will do something. It does not prove this belief is true, that anyone was actually harmed or in danger of being harmed.

Tashan said:
Also, in one of the videos he told a woman that all her problems will be solved and her husband will leave his new love and come back to her. He was fooling simple people and make them believe that he can solve all their problems and even help them harm others to protect their own failed relationships or their lost business, etc.
If the man is a charlatan and doesn't believe he can actually make these predictions, then there are ways to deal with that short of public beheading. If he believes he can actually promise simple people simple answers to all of life's problems by appearing on TV, then he is like many Christian leaders I have seen on TV and radio in the U.S. I think as a rule people should be entitled to their beliefs, the most extreme response I would use is ridicule, not state coercion or violence. From my perspective, it causes terrible harm that "simple" people are (unintentionally) deceived by Muslim leaders into believing they will earn paradise in the next life by squandering this life. On the other hand, it's not my desire or right to decide for everyone, under pain of death, what is true or false. It would be better to decapitate nonsense and superstition with a sharp wit, than decapitate the father of five children with a sharp and bloody sword.
 
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Tashan said:
not4me, do you think Mr. Spinkles and others will ever be able to find a proof through science that demons exist?
Frame the question properly, and if it is true, it should be possible to prove or disprove it using rigorous, objective standards of evidence. We have an entire science called "medicine" Tashan. How do you think it is possible to establish the positive or negative effects of drugs, foods, surgical procedures, exercise? We know certain diet and exercise habits reduce the likelihood of heart disease. We know facts like this because we use scientific protocols to prove it.

In the city where I live, Houston, there is one of the world's largest medical research centers where facts are established, scientifically, about how nanoparticles or organic reactions, or viruses or surgical procedures will affect people's future happiness. I have attended conferences and know some of these researchers myself. I have participated as a test subject in medical research. (It wasn't experimental brain surgery, if that's what you think. ;) ). I have also participated as a subject of social research on the effects of U.S. insurance policy on certain people. I teach an experimental laboratory physics course. I do experimental research in physics every day. I read research articles all the time. This doesn't make me infallible, I'm just saying this because it's relevant that I know what I'm talking about: If a wizard with a magic wand can affect people's physical or emotional health, or their jobs or love life or finances, then it should be possible to measure this effect just as we measure the effects of insurance policy or drugs.

The basic protocol is quite simple:

(1) Select a group of people (or animals) which will serve as test subjects.

(2) Randomly divide the subjects into a control and experimental group.

(3) Apply "the treatment" to the experimental subjects only. The treatment could be a shot, a pill, asking them to exercise every day, or (if it's magic) a supposed "sorcerer" could cast a spell on them.

(4) Do not apply the treatment to the control subjects. Give the controls a fake treatment that resembles the real thing and do not tell the subjects if they are receiving the "real" or "fake" treatment.

(5) Use an objective and quantitative way to measure the effects of the treatment. For example, if you are testing to see whether Tylenol reduces headaches, give the subjects a questionnaire and ask them to rate on a scale from 1 - 10 the intensity of their headaches before and after taking Tylenol or the fake pill.

(6) No one, including the experimenters collecting and analyzing the results, should be allowed to know during the experiment which subject got the "real" and which got the "fake" treatment. (This is called a "double-blind" test.)

If your hypothesis is that a certain magic spell gives people headaches, we should be able to measure a statistically-significant effect in a controlled study, the same way we establish which pills relieve headache pain and which ones do not. If 78% of experimental subjects report decrease in headaches with the treatment, and only 40% of control subjects report decrease in headaches with the fake treatment, and the statistical significance is ~10%, then these results speak for themselves. The effect we were testing for is real, independent of Mr Spinkles or Tashan's personal opinions before the experiment began.

I have seen many properly controlled studies done to test for psychic or magical powers, and I have seen equally many come up with negative results. There is a reason we have a "Journal of Hematology" in medical science, but no journal of demonology. It's not because demons can't be measured, it's because there is nothing there to measure. I'm not closed minded. I try to form conclusions based on evidence. Show me the evidence for magic. :)
 
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And why do you think i want everyone to agree on my beliefs as a muslim ?!...Wether you agree or not....i will not stop believing them....and i will not stop acting according to them....do we need your approval or something ?
I said the belief in magic and spells is superstitious nonsense. I didn't say I think you want everyone to agree with your beliefs, you need my approval, etc. You must want at least to have a discussion with me, otherwise why would you bother to respond? :confused:

maro said:
Yes , I agree
Okay so we're on the same page here. Now the question is, has the influence of demons or magic been rigorously and scientifically proven to exist in this case? I haven't seen such evidence.

The knowledge through revealation can't be proven scientifically ,untill now....but i think you missed my point almost entirely...we don't need scientic evidence because science is not the only tool of verifying knowledge..nor is the scientific evidence the only evidence
I understand your point. I just do not agree with it.
maro said:
How am i sure of those things ? because the divine revealation told us about them..that's evidence enough for me.....how am i sure that this is a divine revealation ?....becuause it's the only thing that makes sense to me....and somehow my heart has certainity about it ( yaqeen)

Yaqeen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So, ultimately, you feel certain because you feel certain.
 
Yes, I am sure that that is categorically true. There is a core set of values that everyone agrees on. Reference the UN Human Rights Resolutions for examples. BTW, I would like to see where you gleaned some support for the other things you mentioned in this paragraph from my statements.
I don't think you support those things, but I think not4me might get the wrong idea if you didn't clarify.

AxisMundi said:
There is also no such thing as a "secular dictatorship".
Nonsense.

Axis said:
If you are going to read such silly things into my statements, perhaps I will be unable to make myself clear.
I agree with your conclusion, if not your supporting argument, that you may be unable to make yourself clear. This is an especially strong possibility if you make seemingly contradictory statements. For example, you insist that democracy is secondary to human rights, categorically; but then you say it would be "silly" to overthrow American democracy in order to end human rights violations.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
I got the details now. Actually, because he is well known on tv for practicing harmful magic in the form of paid service for people, somebody in Saudi Arabia asked him to come over and do some services for him there after the channel he was working for been shut down. After being recognized there, a member of the religious police called him and pretended to be someone who need a service which is to separate someone from his wife through this type of magic and when he prepared everything and claimed the 5,000 Riayls they agreed on, he got caught with the stuff he has prepared in his room at the hotel, and then he gave a full confession for the authorities and on tv.

Sorry it's in arabic but you can see him explaining what he been doing and that he has repented.

So yeah, he wasn't in Saudi Arabia for *pilgrimage* but for the money through harming citizens.

thank God for that.

there are two things i don't get though. what about that person who wanted his so-called help? what happens to him? and why don't Arabic authorities simply send him back and never let him in? after all he is not citizen of Arabia

.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
thank God for that.

there are two things i don't get though. what about that person who wanted his so-called help? what happens to him? and why don't Arabic authorities simply send him back and never let him in? after all he is not citizen of Arabia

.
Very good questions. I think there is more to this then we are being told. JMO
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
When someone is ignorant of what people believe in, heck, even ignorant of the charges against the man at hand, he shouldn't throw judgments like that in vain.

I've been an informal student of religion for longer than some posters here have been alive (hell, my smoking habit is older than some).

So please, spare me the appeal to ignorance fallacy. Islam is right there for anyone to see.

Also right there for everyone to see is what this man is charged with, and what penalty he may face.

And also spare us the "judgmental" comments. That's pure hypocrisy coming from someone who thinks I am sinning because I don;t worship in his religion.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
I don't think you support those things, but I think not4me might get the wrong idea if you didn't clarify.

Nonsense.

I agree with your conclusion, if not your supporting argument, that you may be unable to make yourself clear. This is an especially strong possibility if you make seemingly contradictory statements. For example, you insist that democracy is secondary to human rights, categorically; but then you say it would be "silly" to overthrow American democracy in order to end human rights violations.

Firstly, we never established that corperal punishment was against Human Rights. This is not a concrete, settled ideal in the US, and I personally don't agree with it for other reasons.

Secondly, Hman Rights violations occured, such in Gitmo, and they were adressed internally, ie by the American People.

If you have an example of a real Human Right being trampled on in the US that is NOT being addressed in the legal venues, feel free to offer it for debate.
 

kai

ragamuffin
the thing is people really did believe in sorcery in the 7th century and if this punishment is Quranic , The Quran is proving without doubt that sorcery and demons exist ( for Muslims) so whether its next week or 100 years in the future this will be a fact to Muslims because the Quran cant be wrong. No amount of scepticism or scientific fact will alter that fact.


and by the way try not to be too eloquent with your posts:

Talking sometimes superfluously and eloquently can too be sorcery.


http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=151&chapter=25
 

.lava

Veteran Member
the thing is people really did believe in sorcery in the 7th century and if this punishment is Quranic , The Quran is proving without doubt that sorcery and demons exist ( for Muslims) so whether its next week or 100 years in the future this will be a fact to Muslims because the Quran cant be wrong. No amount of scepticism or scientific fact will alter that fact.

it is not that simple, Kai. yes i do accept Qur'an holds information with no mistakes but if you think Muslims believe them with no any proof or experience, you are seriously underestimating something you are not aware of

.
 
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