Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[Gharib]

Yes, criminals should be punished, for actual crimes. Not executed for something as nebulous and unprovable as "sorcery". Nor should rape victims be punished, nor should people be killed for being gay.

Punishment should also FIT the crime as well.

alright since you mentioned those cases i want to know something:

why is a gay man to be killed according to islamic law?
why is a sorcerer (magician) to be killed according to islamic law?
as for punishing the rape victim that is not islamic so theres nothing to ask about that.

while you are thinking about those questions, tell me, what is an "actual crime" according to whose standards and laws do we define one particular act as a crime.

 

[.lava]

And especially if the sorcerer is assumed to be nothing more than a charlatan,
and is not "believed in".

How on earth could a charlatan make you lose or attain faith? right?

those are not my claims. i believe you're asking the wrong person

.

 

[Gharib]

From what I understand he is being charged with black magic, correct? Not only that, but black magic performed on his television show which was ostensibly taped in another country... from the CNN article:



As a side note... say there was a country where 'sorcerers' ruled, where Islam was viewed in the same manner as Saudia Arabia views magic, would you be ok with a foreign Muslim visiting that country being apprehended and sentenced to death?

the man was caught red handed in saudi arabia preparing his 'things' in order to do what one of the undercover police man had asked him. that is fully justifiable. just like me comming to your country and selling drugs there, do you think your government has no right to punish me?

 

[blackout]

yes, same words can be said for many things. i am aware of atheism, that does not mean i have faith in what they believe...so?

.

And so if an athiest is a charlatan,
they should be put to death like
the 'sorcerer' who is a charlatan.

After all, you do not have "faith" in what either one does, or (lol) does not believe.
They should be treated the same.
A charlatan is a charlatan by any other name.

So weather you go out "dressed up" as a Sorcerer Selling Suggestions,
or Mickey Mouse selling Goofy Oil and Tinkerbell Dust and Magical Kingdoms
you should be executed.

 

[.lava]

And so if an athiest is a charlatan,
should they be put to death like
the 'sorcerer' who is a charlatan.

After all, you do not have "faith" in what either one does, or (lol) does not believe.
They should be treated the same.
A charlatan is a charlatan by any other name.

they are liars if they claim to be something else that they are not. one does not have to be labelled as sorcerer to fool people. a liar religious leader would do that too. if liars are able to constitute a great treat to society, then there must be something wrong about educational system. so real treat lays within minds of individuals of society. killing a liar would not cure that problem. IMO death penalthy has to be the last option

.

 

[.lava]

And so if an athiest is a charlatan,
they should be put to death like
the 'sorcerer' who is a charlatan.

After all, you do not have "faith" in what either one does, or (lol) does not believe.
They should be treated the same.
A charlatan is a charlatan by any other name.

So weather you go out "dressed up" as a Sorcerer Selling Suggestions,
or Mickey Mouse selling Goofy Oil and Tinkerbell Dust and Magical Kingdoms
you should be executed.

wow..such an important and meaningful edit...if you think you should be executed for playing with silly toys and killing your time, then you're probably able to play dead on your own to make it real. so go play

.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

eselam shouldn't you be in our one-on-one thread, admitting the evidence shows homosexuality occurs in nature?

 

[blackout]

wow..such an important and meaningful edit...if you think you should be executed for playing with silly toys and killing your time, then you're probably able to play dead on your own to make it real. so go play

.

Neither do I, think a person should be killed for SELLING SUGGESTIONS.

I'm simply saying that one person selling suggestions
is no different than another person selling suggestions.

No matter what they call themSelves,
or how they costume themSelves,
they are still Selling Suggestions.

I would be more concerned instead
with the Suggestions people are BUYING.
(Buying could mean of course "Believing in"... or "Paying for".... or "Living by".... or....)
( You can SpellCast that yourSelf)

 

[blackout]

the man was caught red handed in saudi arabia preparing his 'things' in order to do what one of the undercover police man had asked him. that is fully justifiable. just like me comming to your country and selling drugs there, do you think your government has no right to punish me?

...and what exactly pray tell were those ..... 'things'?

 

[.lava]

Neither do I, think a person should be killed for SELLING SUGGESTIONS.

I'm simply saying that one person selling suggestions
is no different than another person selling suggestions.

No matter what they call themSelves,
or how they costume themSelves,
they are still Selling Suggestions.

I would be more concerned instead
with the Suggestions people are BUYING.
(Buying could mean of course "Believing in"... or "Paying for".... or "Living by".... or....)
( You can SpellCast that yourSelf)

OK, i can recall how you see jinn issue, same as imaginary friends, right? i don't mind how you see it, seriously, i don't. i'll just try to express how it is in our reality and by that i don't mean billion Muslims, just me and religious people i know in person. demons won't appear before you and become real when you believe them or it is useless to claim you won't see any demon or jinn just because you don't believe in them. i personally know that it happens. some people even become ill after seeing something very unusual that actually make them question reality itself.

some people and by that i don't mean masses who's impressed by new age waves, tarot cards, beautiful stones or Harry Potter world, by that i mean people who has some knowledge of this stuff. i say "some knowledge" because the ones who's master of this stuff would not go in public offering future readings, spells..etc. it is possible for a man or a woman to make deal with jinns or demons which means demons also demand certain things from that person too. it is like any other business deal and noone is doing it for charity. i've known people like that and they openly say how many jinns they use. some of these people would not offer just "help". that's the problem about this issue. some of them command these jinns or demons to attack people. when one was attacked by this creatures, he would have nightmares, he would not be able to think straight and always be confused, he would be suicidal....etc. only after that he would be offered help from the one who actually put him in that situation. that person would call his "workers" back and man would feel better instantly and pay lots of money. that's how their business continue and that's one of the reason why some people have faith in sorcery cos it seems it works


.

 

[blackout]

OK, i can recall how you see jinn issue, same as imaginary friends, right? i don't mind how you see it, seriously, i don't. i'll just try to express how it is in our reality and by that i don't mean billion Muslims, just me and religious people i know in person. demons won't appear before you and become real when you believe them or it is useless to claim you won't see any demon or jinn just because you don't believe in them. i personally know that it happens. some people even become ill after seeing something very unusual that actually make them question reality itself.

some people and by that i don't mean masses who's impressed by new age waves, tarot cards, beautiful stones or Harry Potter world, by that i mean people who has some knowledge of this stuff. i say "some knowledge" because the ones who's master of this stuff would not go in public offering future readings, spells..etc. it is possible for a man or a woman to make deal with jinns or demons which means demons also demand certain things from that person too. it is like any other business deal and noone is doing it for charity. i've known people like that and they openly say how many jinns they use. some of these people would not offer just "help". that's the problem about this issue. some of them command these jinns or demons to attack people. when one was attacked by this creatures, he would have nightmares, he would not be able to think straight and always be confused, he would be suicidal....etc. only after that he would be offered help from the one who actually put him in that situation. that person would call his "workers" back and man would feel better instantly and pay lots of money. that's how their business continue and that's one of the reason why some people have faith in sorcery cos it seems it works


.

Ok, so here you are not talking about charlatans.

According to what you say,
these instances should provide enough evidence
that it could be shown beyond a reasonable doubt
that there had been some REAL assault perpetrated
by the accused.

Otherwise, you have nothing more than an indefensable Witch Hunt.

 

[blackout]

some people even become ill after seeing something very unusual that actually make them question reality itself.

Shifts to the Assemblage Point... or Paradigm Shifts...
WILL make people sick.
Moreso for people who have been heavily conditioned
to only ONE MODEL of Reality.

I seem to have been born for paradigm shifting.
I have ALWAYS questioned reality itself.
Trying to keep me confined to one model of Reality
can actually make me physically ill.

 

[.lava]

Ok, so here you are not talking about charlatans.

According to what you say,
these instances should provide enough evidence
that it could be shown beyond a reasonable doubt
that there had been some REAL assault perpetrated
by the accused.

Otherwise, you have nothing more than an indefensable Witch Hunt.

actually i don't know if it is possible to provide evidence. what's really happening on metaphysical world would be seen by certain people. but an authority who was given job by ordinary people would be simply blind to it. they could only assume but they would not know it for sure

.

 

[kai]

Ok, so here you are not talking about charlatans.

According to what you say,
these instances should provide enough evidence
that it could be shown

beyond a reasonable doubt

that there had been some REAL assault perpetrated
by the accused.

Otherwise, you have nothing more than an indefensable Witch Hunt.

Thats fine here in the UK or the US but maybe its not a prerequisite for a verdict in Saudi Arabia

 

[.lava]

Shifts to the Assemblage Point... or Paradigm Shifts...
WILL make people sick.
Moreso for people who have been heavily conditioned
to only ONE MODEL of Reality.

I seem to have been born for paradigm shifting.
I have ALWAYS questioned reality itself.
Trying to keep me confined to one model of Reality
can actually make me physically ill.

yes, i think one model reality is dangerous thing. there are realities within realities. world is no more different than dreams. Qur'an also says that world and dream are made out of same material. for that matter i think Shamans have an interesting point claiming that entire humanity put spell on themselves to keep this reality as one

.

 

[I Am]

Islam is a "religion of peace", right?

 

[Gharib]

Islam is a "religion of peace", right?

correct.

 

[Sahar]

hey, balash te2oli kida la a7san yefakaro fi also3odiah eny ba3mil kida min gad wo ye6ayaro ra2bti. :cover: ana 3ayiz agawiz wathanna :sad:

ahehehe, you are right, sorry. May God bless you and your marriage.

 

[maro]

I said the belief in magic and spells is superstitious nonsense. I didn't say I think you want everyone to agree with your beliefs, you need my approval, etc. You must want at least to have a discussion with me, otherwise why would you bother to respond?

You said providing physical evidence for my superstitious beliefs is the only way to make all people agree on them , right ? . I have no problem to try to provide physical evidence and reasonable arguments to you...but the point i was clarifying ,is that I am not obliged to...my beliefs are based on revealation..and providing any physical scietific evidence is something secondary to me

I wanted to clarify this because of the arrogant tone i feel in some of the posts of this thread...like :

The U.S is not in good position to put pressure on saudi arabia !!
or
there would be no debate !!

I am not offended by what you think of my beliefs as a muslim , because you are an atheist after all ,and you are entitled to your opinion...but what offends me the most is when people think they have the right to determine for us what is humane and impose it on us

Okay so we're on the same page here. Now the question is, has the influence of demons or magic been rigorously and scientifically proven to exist in this case? I haven't seen such evidence.

No ,the influence of demons or magic probably hasn't been scietifically proven ,yet.....so what ?....it's has been proven to us via the revealation.....can't we freely practice our religion and set our own laws acording to it untill we prove it to you ?!!

So, ultimately, you feel certain because you feel certain.

before the certainity of the heart ( al yaqeen)....i said : because it's the only thing that makes sense to me...didn't i ?

 

[maro]

I have seen many properly controlled studies done to test for psychic or magical powers, and I have seen equally many come up with negative results.

I understand that science hasn't proved those powers ,yet...but are you saying that they have been scientifically disproved as well ?

Can you share some of those studies with us ,if you don't mind ?!