Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[TashaN]

This isn't about the United States vs. Islam. I'm not anti-Islam or pro-United States. I myself agree with you: I am against Guantanamo ever being opened. The US government has a lot corrupt individuals in it.

Oh really? are you doing anything about it? how are you showing your strong disapproval of what is happening in Guantanamo?

Also, you mentioned that you were against opening it, but it still exist until now, why aren't you doing anything about it? or you feel good about yourself just for disapproving it in RF and then you go to sleep happily as nothing has happened?

Don't you care about the children in that prison who are being tortured and humiliated, losing their most basic human rights?

Are they enemy combatants too?

US citizens who criticize other nations should be ashamed of themselves and they better clean their own yard first, before jumping into our throats.

 

[.lava]

If you say that there is God,you should be able to prove it.But you cannot.Hence, secularism is the best option.If you want Islamic rule,then show us where your Allah is.

in your opinion. besides who's going to prove people who represent so-called secular system have no beliefs at all? everyone has beliefs. each law holds a belief within. at least we say Allah is unseen while Western show us faces of people who has personal desires, greed, hatred and say that's the representetive of neutral system. get over it, friend. don't treat religious as if we have faith to prove you God. we don't have it for you and we don't owe anything by believing in our true owner

.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You said providing physical evidence for my superstitious beliefs is the only way to make all people agree on them , right ? . I have no problem to try to provide physical evidence and reasonable arguments to you...but the point i was clarifying ,is that I am not obliged to...my beliefs are based on revealation..and providing any physical scietific evidence is something secondary to me

I totally accept that, you're not obliged to provide evidence for your beliefs. And I'm not obliged to accept magic tales without any evidence.

I wanted to clarify this because of the arrogant tone i feel in some of the posts of this thread...like :

The U.S is not in good position to put pressure on saudi arabia !!
or
there would be no debate !!

I am not offended by what you think of my beliefs as a muslim , because you are an atheist after all ,and you are entitled to your opinion...but what offends me the most is when people think they have the right to determine for us what is humane and impose it on us

I think I understand what you mean. I agree with you, there is an arrogant tone in some of the posts of this thread when you put the posts in the context of the Western nationality of the poster, and contemporary and historical international relations and colonialism, and the balance of power in the world. I am sympathetic to how you're feeling here, honestly, I am. So I don't disagree with your point, but let me throw a couple of thoughts out there. I think it would be unfair to automatically assume any Westerner here who is shocked by this execution, believes Saudi Arabia should be threatened by force over this issue, or something insane like that. Whoever said the words you quoted, surely they meant diplomatic pressure? I could be wrong. Anyway, speaking for myself, I absolutely oppose imposing governments on people by foreign military ... and I am shocked at anyone who disagrees with this, except in the most extreme situations.

No ,the influence of demons or magic probably hasn't been scietifically proven ,yet.....so what ?....it's has been proven to us via the revealation.....can't we freely practice our religion and set our own laws acording to it untill we prove it to you ?!!

Yes, you can freely practice your religion (I hope) without proving it to me. However, that is not the issue here. The broad issue here is whether or not people with pagan or Wiccan or non-traditional religious beliefs, will be granted the same courtesy--to harmlessly and peacefully practice their religion--in Saudi Arabia. We know, in general, this is far from the case.

More specifically, the issue here is that a man with five children has been sentenced to death, for supposedly using witchcraft or genies, much like the characters in Harry Potter or Disney's Aladdin. You have the right to believe in superstitious nonsense without proving it to me. But I think you would agree, fantastic accusations like that, and especially the death penalty, requires proof that he actually has these powers, that he actually harmed someone, or had the potential to harm someone.

before the certainity of the heart ( al yaqeen)....i said : because it's the only thing that makes sense to me...didn't i ?

I don't remember but I take your word for it. Okay, it's the only thing that makes sense to you. Ask Catholics, protestants, Mormons, Jews, pagans, Wiccans, Hindus, etc. .... many will say the same thing, I feel certainty in my heart, it's the only thing that makes sense to me, I don't need to give you evidence because it's revelation, etc. It seems you have two things in common with them: certainty, and lack of evidence.

 

[AxisMundi]

Not true....Secularism is not religiously neutral....it stems from the notion that either there's no God , or if there's , he should mind his own business and let what to cesar to cesar

I see I was correct, you have no idea what secular means. Secularism is not Atheism.

From Webster's online...

1 a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c : not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>
2 : not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation <a secular priest>
3 a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration <secular inflation>

There's a difference between allowing all religions to practice freely and being religiously neutral....somehow i doubt you will get my point :flirt:

As I said, there is no inherent right to force people to be in your religion, or live by your religion.

Really ? how is that ?

You use a common phrase of US Christian fundamentalists, an utterly Phailed attempt to equate science with some form of belief system. Doesn't work. Science deals in facts, self-correcting as mistakes are found or new information becomes available.

Religion comes immediately to a conclusion, "Goddunnit", and sticks to that conclusion even in the face of glaring counter-evidence.

I see...so ,why don't you show us how science disproves much of my scripture ?...I am all ears

Creation, WWF, Adam and Eve, Job, Sodom and Gomorrah, a flat earth and geocentric universe, et cetera ad nauseum, all disproved.

 

[AxisMundi]

Oh really? are you doing anything about it? how are you showing your strong disapproval of what is happening in Guantanamo?

Also, you mentioned that you were against opening it, but it still exist until now, why aren't you doing anything about it? or you feel good about yourself just for disapproving it in RF and then you go to sleep happily as nothing has happened?

Don't you care about the children in that prison who are being tortured and humiliated, losing their most basic human rights?

Are they enemy combatants too?

US citizens who criticize other nations should be ashamed of themselves and they better clean their own yard first, before jumping into our throats.

Gitmo is being addressed. The political party that put it in place has been replaced using the democratic process.

America has spoken.

Why doesn't Islam police it's own and take care of it's own extremists?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I understand that science hasn't proved those powers ,yet...but are you saying that they have been scientifically disproved as well ?

Technically no. What I would say is there are innumerable cases of alleged magic and countless cases of fraud or misapprehension have been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt. However, not one case of the influence of magical powers, or demons, etc. has been demonstrated beyond doubt.

For example, I can't prove that there has never, and will never, be a crop circle created by aliens. What I can prove is that people have confessed to making crop circles, originally as pranks. I can demonstrate how easy it is to make elaborate crop circles without anyone noticing. I can document dozens and dozens of cases of known fraud. And I can say that there is not a shred of reliable, physical evidence aliens were involved -- no alien technology left behind, no previously-unknowable messages in the circles (like the coordinates of an undiscovered star system), no exotic materials (like their clothes or trash or food), no alien ships, no bodies, no reliable radio or video or photos, no microbes or cells or hair from their bodies.

And of course, as in all superstitions: it only works when skeptics are not looking. When skeptics are there, or a video camera is set up to watch the field, the aliens don't appear.

Can you share some of those studies with us ,if you don't mind ?!

Why, I would be happy to! I already gave the example of "mesmerism" in this post. I could post many, many more examples in a new thread, if you like.

 

[I Am]

Oh really? are you doing anything about it? how are you showing your strong disapproval of what is happening in Guantanamo?

Also, you mentioned that you were against opening it, but it still exist until now, why aren't you doing anything about it? or you feel good about yourself just for disapproving it in RF and then you go to sleep happily as nothing has happened?

Don't you care about the children in that prison who are being tortured and humiliated, losing their most basic human rights?

Are they enemy combatants too?

US citizens who criticize other nations should be ashamed of themselves and they better clean their own yard first, before jumping into our throats.

Before jumping down my throat you might want to consider that I may be adressing those issues in some fashion. I recently turned 18 and voted for Obama; one of my principal reasons for this was his stance on Gitmo.

 

[CoolSunshine]

If you say that there is no God,you should be able to prove it.But you cannot.Hence, Islamic rule is the best option.If you want secular law,then show us how Allah doesn't exist.

Why don' you prove the presence of spaghetti monsters.How can anyone prove the absence of non-existent object?

 

[CoolSunshine]

in your opinion. besides who's going to prove people who represent so-called secular system have no beliefs at all? everyone has beliefs. each law holds a belief within. at least we say Allah is unseen while Western show us faces of people who has personal desires, greed, hatred and say that's the representetive of neutral system. get over it, friend. don't treat religious as if we have faith to prove you God. we don't have it for you and we don't owe anything by believing in our true owner

.

Not everyone is from the west(I am from Korea).How does the wrong doing of the US/the west in general justify the intolerance shown by Muslim countries on say the sorcerers?Don't you think religious freedom is a basic human right?What if other countries in the East,impose their own law on the Muslim minorities.Do you find it pleasant?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

These tools were an example of what might be used by people like him. It has nothing to do with the case at hand as i mentioned before.

Okay so let's talk about the case at hand. What were the "tools" found in this man's possession? (Did I somehow miss this?)

How about a full confession instead?

A confession is evidence, but it is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There are cases of people confessing to crimes they did not commit, I can cite specific cases if you like.

And you won't find a difficult time on the first place believing that Shariah law's main source--Quran--which all courts in Saudi Arabia hold as law came from *God*?

Does the Quran say that Mr. Sibat has magical powers? No. It must be proved.

Science according to many people couldn't prove that God exist. So? You complaining now about demons?

I'm concerned that five children are going to lose their father because the Saudi legal system thinks Harry Potter is nonfiction.

I never read that they promised him that they would spare him if he confessed. I would stand on his side if that was the case.

This is according to human rights organization Amnesty International, the same human rights organization that denounces the U.S. for Guantanamo and Israel for the occupied territories, among other abuses in the world:

'Ali Hussain Sibat was arrested by the Mutawa'een (religious police) on charges of "sorcery" in May 2008 while he was in Saudi Arabia to perform a form of Muslim pilgrimage, the 'umra.

His lawyer in Lebanon believes that 'Ali Hussain Sibat was arrested because members of the Mutawa'een had recognized him from the show, which was broadcast on the Sheherazade TV station.

After he was arrested, 'Ali Hussain Sibat's interrogators told him to write down what he did for a living, reassuring him that, if he did so, he would be allowed to go home after a few weeks.

This document was presented in court as a "confession" and used to convict him.

He was sentenced to death by a court in Madina on 9 November 2009 after secret court hearings where he had no legal representation or assistance.
​

Saudi Arabia 'sorcery' death sentence upheld | Amnesty International

For example, instead of Mr. Spinkles, he would say Mr. Spilnkes in purpose and only those who deal with demons change words like that. This is not just *another* way of reading the Quran.

Okay I am skeptical, but let's suppose this is true. At most, it would be evidence Mr. Sibat believes in this superstition. It would not prove that anyone was actually harmed by this or was in any danger of being harmed. The man could be superstitious or eccentric, or even a little bit mentally deranged.

By the way, throughout Islamic history and according to Shariah law, the magician of this sort who use demon work should be executed.

Yes but we have learned things since the 7th century, believe it or not.

 

[CoolSunshine]

I have created a new thread on religious freedom ,since it deviates from the man topic here.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-freedom-religion-isnt-basic-human-right.html

Add your valuable comments there.

 

[Gharib]

Killing people is a very peaceful practice. :sarcastic

i see your point, lets say yes to terrorism and criminals.

 

[kai]

Yes but we have learned things since the 7th century, believe it or not.

Thats irrelevant! Sorcery is justified as existing in the Quran the word magic is in the Quran 60 times, its impossible for a Muslim to question this. There is no way to move on. Theres no where to go on this. end of!

Black Magic: Rulings & Remedy - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Well said lava... This is how I tend to view things. I personally find the notion that someone will be executed for sorcery abhorrent and bit silly. However, the man knew full well where he was going and what type of laws they uphold. Even though I may disagree with the laws of that land, I (as a US citizen) have no right to preach to a sovereign government about what laws are just or unjust. That's between that government and its people.

I just want to point out to Tashan that this would be a stronger argument if (1) there was any proof the man actually harmed someone, (2) if he was being fined or deported, instead of executed, and (3) if this was a rare case in Saudi Arabia.

I agree laws are between the government and its people and you should respect the laws of the country you are visiting. But in cases like this I think international criticism and diplomacy is called for. I also think that is true of Guantanamo Bay and the expansion of Israeli settlements, by the way.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Thats irrelevant! Sorcery is justified as existing in the Quran the word magic is in the Quran 60 times, its impossible for a Muslim to question this. There is no way to move on. Theres no where to go on this. end of!

Black Magic: Rulings & Remedy - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

I feel almost certain I know people who are Muslim and who do not believe in magic or jinns. The New Testament explicitly talks about demons and possession and exorcism, Jesus performs a few, yet most Christians reject this in the modern era. Maybe if I get an opportunity I'll ask a Muslim acquaintance politely about this ... although in my experience a lot of people here from Middle East countries are non-practicing or secular.

 

[kai]

I feel almost certain I know people who are Muslim and who do not believe in magic or jinns. The New Testament explicitly talks about demons and possession and exorcism, Jesus performs a few, yet most Christians reject this in the modern era. Maybe if I get an opportunity I'll ask a Muslim acquaintance politely about this ... although in my experience a lot of people here from Middle East countries are non-practicing or secular.

Ok but not believing in magic or jinns is not the norm, its defined in the Quran and Sunnah. and unlike Christianity , Islam cannot change its view on this subject for the sake of Modernity.

 

[.lava]

Not everyone is from the west(I am from Korea).How does the wrong doing of the US/the west in general justify the intolerance shown by Muslim countries on say the sorcerers?Don't you think religious freedom is a basic human right?What if other countries in the East,impose their own law on the Muslim minorities.Do you find it pleasant?

yes, i do. that's why i would not go to China. any reason why i can't see any reaction to executions China apply on Muslims? we can discuss one man's execution for pages. i don't know how many Musim were executed, how many Muslim girls were forcely taken away from their home, how many young Muslims are forced to work free as slaves...etc. though there is no reaction from you, is there? i am tired of this kind of conversation. you either stand for all human's rights or you don't. maybe Muslims would pay more attention when those rights were applied to Muslims as well. so excuse me. go find yourself another one to play this game with

.

 

[TashaN]

Gitmo is being addressed. The political party that put it in place has been replaced using the democratic process.

And yet, Gitmo is still wide open till today. Nothing has changed.

Before jumping down my throat you might want to consider that I may be adressing those issues in some fashion. I recently turned 18 and voted for Obama; one of my principal reasons for this was his stance on Gitmo.

I hope he will *change* something.

Why don' you prove the presence of spaghetti monsters.How can anyone prove the absence of non-existent object?

How do you know he doesn't exist?

 

[Mister Emu]

The New Testament explicitly talks about demons and possession and exorcism, Jesus performs a few, yet most Christians reject this in the modern era.

Interesting... I wonder about that...

That does not mean we, Christians, buy every claim of demonic activity/possession... but I think most Christians would, on at least an theoretical level, accept demons and the possibility of their interaction with people...

yes, i do.

I find it hard to believe that you find it pleasant that Muslims are treated inferior under the law anywhere... that you would not have it changed if you could?

though there is no reaction from you, is there? i am tired of this kind of conversation. you either stand for all human's rights or you don't.

China has been widely criticized here, and officially by the American government in its Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, for its human rights abuses.

And yet, Gitmo is still wide open till today. Nothing has changed.

Indeed... that does not change that the people voted with the intention of changing it...

There is no personal hypocrisy for someone who is against the improper acts conducted within their own community to also denounce improper acts without.

Also, thank you for correcting what I read on CNN...

 

[Beaudreaux]

Well, he turned me into a newt!