Mandatory Vaccinations?

[SkepticThinker]

I must have weirdly replied to someone else.

From these threads people repeat facts-numbers, efficiency of vaccines, pictures, and so forth. I don't know what they are supposed to do in and of itself.

You can disregard.

Okay, no worries.

How does the uninformed you have spoken to reflect the decisions and intentions of the unvaccinated all around the world?

Well, they don’t live in a vacuum, they’re getting this stuff from somewhere. Probably the same place all the other uninformed people are getting this stuff from – Fox News, OAN, YouTube videos and internet memes. How do I know this? Because they constantly share it on social media.

Logically, how does being unvaccinated mean one is ignorant or misinformed?

We can have our opinions of what others "think" they mean or know but not all opinions are facts.

Because they haven’t vetted their sources and it’s obvious. Because they post and share factually incorrect memes and videos.

And those that do and are unvaccinated?

Those that do what?

Since so many people die all around the world I never put too much thought into people in an empathic way since in doing so-sharing in others suffering-it would get me sick.

I want to do all I can to lessen human suffering and death for every human on the planet. If something as simple as getting everyone vaccinated is the way to do that, then I’m all in. Thinking about people needlessly dying makes me sick as well.

How so? I'd only be helping those who are around me if I were vaccinated. People who aren't physically around me cannot catch COVID if I have it, so the idea of helping people from across the world would make sense to those who are always in contact with people to build that herd immunity. If I just stayed at home all day and night the helping people around the world would be, well, a nice goal but not something that applies to me (in this example).

See, that’s the thing that you don’t seem to be grasping here and I can’t figure out why.

COVID is a global threat. You are not only a threat to those in your direct vicinity, but also to the people all around the world. We don’t live in isolated communities where nobody travels between groups or countries. We live in a world where we are all connected.

Have you ever seen the movie Contagion? It demonstrates very well how one single person across the planet contracting an illness can ultimately effect every single person on the planet. One pig somewhere across the world becomes ill, then a butcher kills it and sells it to a restaurant. The chef at that restaurant comes into contact with the pig, contracts the illness, and then prepares the pig for his customers to eat. They all eat it and contract the virus as well. Then they all get on a plane and spread it around there, and then the airport. Now one single lady across the world, gets on a bus to get home from the airport and everyone there becomes exposed. Then all those other people go home to their families and spread it around there. Next thing you know, 50 million people across the world have contracted it and its completely out of control. That’s all because one pig was contaminated and served in one restaurant somewhere.

I mean, we literally just lived through basically this almost exact scenario. And it’s even worse with COVID, because many people who have it are asymptomatic and are spreading it without even being aware of it. Remember how rapidly COVID was spreading through cruise ships at the start of this whole thing?

This isn't my particular situation, but it's like telling someone who lives in solitude (say a loner in the woods) that without getting vaccinated he would put millions of people in danger. While the "idea" of potentially spreading a disease if one has it is problemsome but how does it apply to the minority who have a less chance of catching it if any?

Hopefully you see now how we don’t all live in solitude and we’re actually all connected.

Notice how fast COVID spread across the world? Even to island nations like New Zealand.

But your good evidence, reason, and logic isn't universal …

But it is.

… and people who read the same information (mind you, from all around the world) will come to different conclusions. Some get the vaccine out of fear... some are unvaccinated out of fear. Some don't research but just jump the gun and vaccinate... others don't research and decide not to vaccinate.

If we’re all reading the same factual information, then we should be coming to the same conclusion. The problem is, we’re not all reading the same factual information.

The fact of the matter is obvious, given the data: As of today, the vast majority of people contracting COVID are those who are unvaccinated.

We just don't know how people came to their decisions but someone unvaccinated alone doesn't determine who based their decision on logic and who did not.

I know how the people I talk to came to their decisions.

Both unvaccinated and vaccinated could be ignorant even with the facts... some out of fear and others maybe peer pressure or so have you. The victims fall on both sides. We just don't know every vaccinated person made a "smart" decision and we don't know every unvaccinated person made an "uninformed" decision.

It’s hard to be ignorant when you’ve got the facts.

I don't believe it is reasonable nor logical to say unvaccinated are uninformed.

You'd have to make a direct connection between their decision to not vaccinated and how much they know.

I do. Especially when they demonstrate that they are.

I mean you can make a sound and rational decision that you feel conflicts the well-being of others without their needing to be uninformed (or ignorant or so have you), right?

Can people have the responsibility of making their own decisions without needing to justify it?

Without needing to justify it? I don’t think so.

How do you know?

There are unvaccinated people all over the world.

For the reasons I’ve already given.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I was thinking you were using those you personally know to reflect the majority.

Are you on social media?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Pretty much the same here....conspiracies, distrust of
Democrats, distrust of big business, wary of vaccines,
feelings of invulnerability.
I get a sense of what they believe by watching OAN,
which portrays much of the above, especially claims
of how dangerous vaccines are, & how Covid isn't
really a problem.

Oh I hear ya! All of the above and then some.

I tried watching a bit of OAN to get a sense of where they're coming from and I couldn't even believe what I was seeing.

 

[Jose Fly]

Oh damn! Did they survive?

Yep, they seem to be fine.

Sorry which one is the J&J one? In Aus we have the AstraZeneca, Pfizer and I think some moderna stock for “boosters.”

It's the Johnson and Johnson vaccine that only requires a single shot. There's been talk of those of us who got that one may need a booster later this year.

Oh that’s awful. We have people “cut in line” in the sense that if they’re on private they can sort of jump the queue in terms of medication. Sometimes waiting times in hospitals (barring emergencies.)
But the way it’s structured, there are only certain people eligible in certain stages of the vaccine rollout. That’s regardless of income. Though people have been waiting outside doctors offices and getting the “left overs” after hours. If that makes sense?

Yep, that makes sense. Here we had reports of wealthy people using their political connections to get access to vaccines that were designated for older folks and other vulnerable groups. Some were even taking "vaccine trips" on private planes to areas of the country where vaccines were available. That's America, the most capitalistic society on the planet!

Going back to our earlier discussion of unvaccinated people dying of COVID, I saw this this morning...

Cape Official, Unvaccinated Trump Supporter Dies Of COVID-19 (msn.com)

BOURNE, MA — A former Bourne selectwoman who promoted conspiracy theories about the coronavirus as a member of a pro-Trump group on Cape Cod died from complications from COVID-19.

Linda Zuern, who was not vaccinated against the coronavirus, was 70. According to the Cape Cod Times, which first reported this story, Zuren contracted the virus following a trip to visit her mother in South Dakota. Both women tested positive for the coronavirus, though Zuern's mother survived.

Before her death, Zuern spent months promoting conspiracy theories about the pandemic on her Facebook page. She shared articles accusing the World Health Organization of covering up the "Wuhan Virus" and falsely claiming the pandemic is a cover for "globalists" to create a one world government.​

That's exactly the kind of person I was talking about not feeling the slightest bit of sorrow over their dying of COVID. I'm not happy that she died, I just don't care. She saw the "Warning Alligators" sign and chose to jump in anyways.

 

[Wandering Monk]

By the time the reluctant decide to get the dose, they may be too late to prevent serious infection. If you are getting the mRNA vaccine, it takes a minimum of five weeks to reach fully vaccinated status, that is, the greatest effectiveness of the jab.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you on social media?

What do you mean?

I only go here or read inspirational and cooking stuff on Facebook.

 

[ecco]

Then who were you referring to in the top quote? Why would you be annoyed with an infected person if she didn't know she was infected?

I read it yesterday too. I like @Suave attitude about it. He/she is vaccinated and still look at the critical sides of vaccines while maintaining it's effiency.

But you refused to address to questions I raised. It's getting to be a habit.

If telling unvaccinated they are making excuses helps you feel better, then so be. Everyone needs to justify actions they don't understand or have ill feelings about. Guess it's a self soothing technique.

I can't justify or make excuses for people making ignorant decisions. Only the people making ignorant decisions can do that.

 

[ecco]

the utterly slow rate of vaccination now (more the governments fault than anyone else’s.)

How do you come to the conclusion that the slowing rate of vaccinations is the fault of the government?

The government says to get vaccinated. Infectious disease professionals say to get vaccinated. Business leaders and celebrities say to get vaccinated. Survivors and relatives of dead people say to get vaccinated.

The people saying don't get vaccinated, by voice or example, are the likes of Sean Hannity, the QAnons, the "against all vaccinations" crowd and the "Too Much Government Pressure" crowd.

 

[ecco]

There's a term for people holding on to bad decisions out of fear of admitting they'd made a bad decision, but I can't recall what it is at the moment.

Lol....it was some clinical term. I wish I could remember.....sucks gettin' old.

How about egotistical idiocy?

 

[ecco]

Logically, how does being unvaccinated mean one is ignorant or misinformed?

You keep asking that same question in different ways. You keep ignoring the answers. Some time ago you essentially said no one was going to change your mind.

 

[ecco]

Oh that’s awful. We have people “cut in line” in the sense that if they’re on private they can sort of jump the queue in terms of medication.

As of mid-June in America, we have an overabundance of vaccines. Today, anyone who wants one can get it easily.

Yet...
Google "how many americans unvaccinated"

Over 56% of those ages 12 and up in the U.S. are fully vaccinated, according to the CDC.
2 days ago.​

That means 44% (minus those that can't get vaccinated for medical reasons) are choosing to risk illness and death.


Why?

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...vaccines-are-riskier-than-covid-19-poll-finds

A large share of unvaccinated Americans say the COVID-19 vaccine poses a greater risk to their health than the virus itself, according to a poll released Tuesday – contradicting broad agreements among scientists about the safety of the vaccines.

Covid Misinformation a Harmful Force: Johns Hopkins’ Sharfstein

The new survey from Yahoo News/YouGov paints an alarming picture of vaccine hesitancy across the country – despite a scientific study finding six months after the first injections in December 2020 that the safety of the vaccines is "remarkable" – as cases rise largely due to the delta variant.

Tuesday's poll found that 37% of unvaccinated respondents believe the vaccines represent a greater health risk than COVID-19. Nearly 35% of those surveyed say they're not sure, and only 29% say getting the virus is more risky than getting vaccinated, according to the Yahoo News/YouGov poll, which reached 1,715 U.S. adults between July 13-15. The survey has a margin of error of 2.7%.
​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But you refused to address to questions I raised. It's getting to be a habit.



I can't justify or make excuses for people making ignorant decisions. Only the people making ignorant decisions can do that.

I have you just don't accept the answer.

If judging makes you feel better, so be. Life goes on.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You keep asking that same question in different ways. You keep ignoring the answers. Some time ago you essentially said no one was going to change your mind.

No one will but me. Peer pressure, shock appeal, and repeating numbers doesn't work with me.

What's your point?

Negativity is counter productive. Sends a red flag

 

[SomeRandom]

How do you come to the conclusion that the slowing rate of vaccinations is the fault of the government?

The government says to get vaccinated. Infectious disease professionals say to get vaccinated. Business leaders and celebrities say to get vaccinated. Survivors and relatives of dead people say to get vaccinated.

The people saying don't get vaccinated, by voice or example, are the likes of Sean Hannity, the QAnons, the "against all vaccinations" crowd and the "Too Much Government Pressure" crowd.

I’m from Australia, so I was referring to my own government. I’m not entirely well versed on America’s rollout scheme
Our government was relying on AstraZeneca more than any other vaccine because it could be made here as well. But failed to secure enough Pfizer or any other vaccine. When the blood clot issue surfaced and expert advice changed, the government had to then scramble to secure more Pfizer to adjust for demand. Something they absolutely bungled. So instead of having a good chunk of herd immunity going that they predicted would be the result by now, the rollout is now “delayed.”

 

[Jose Fly]

How about egotistical idiocy?

I think I found it. It's "sunk cost" and "escalation of commitment".

"I've gone too far and put too much into this to turn back now!"

 

[ecco]

Peer pressure, shock appeal, and repeating numbers doesn't work with me.

What's your point?

Negativity is counter productive. Sends a red flag

Don't blame our negativity for your reluctance about the vaccines. Blame the negativity spewed forth by the likes of FOX's Hannity, the folks at places like OAN, and the Republican politicians who are still bemoaning Trump's loss and doing whatever they can to undermine Biden and the American economy.

Are you going to blame our negativity if you end up getting COVID? Are you going to convince yourself that our negativity was the reason you didn't get vaccinated? Really?

 

[ecco]

I’m from Australia, so I was referring to my own government. I’m not entirely well versed on America’s rollout scheme
Our government was relying on AstraZeneca more than any other vaccine because it could be made here as well. But failed to secure enough Pfizer or any other vaccine. When the blood clot issue surfaced and expert advice changed, the government had to then scramble to secure more Pfizer to adjust for demand. Something they absolutely bungled. So instead of having a good chunk of herd immunity going that they predicted would be the result by now, the rollout is now “delayed.”

OK. Big difference between the two countries. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Jose Fly]

'I'm sorry, but it's too late' - unvaccinated patients beg for shot; new infections nearly triple in two weeks: COVID news (msn.com)

Dr. Brytney Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, wrote in a recent Facebook post she is treating a lot of young, otherwise healthy people for serious coronavirus infections.

"One of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine," she wrote. "I hold their hand and tell them that I'm sorry, but it's too late."

In her post, Cobia wrote that when a patient dies, she hugs their family members and urges them to get vaccinated. She said they cry and tell her they thought the pandemic was a "hoax," or "political," or targeting some other age group or skin color.​

Gee...wonder where they got those ideas from?

 

[SomeRandom]

OK. Big difference between the two countries. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No worries

 

[SomeRandom]

'I'm sorry, but it's too late' - unvaccinated patients beg for shot; new infections nearly triple in two weeks: COVID news (msn.com)

Dr. Brytney Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, wrote in a recent Facebook post she is treating a lot of young, otherwise healthy people for serious coronavirus infections.

"One of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine," she wrote. "I hold their hand and tell them that I'm sorry, but it's too late."

In her post, Cobia wrote that when a patient dies, she hugs their family members and urges them to get vaccinated. She said they cry and tell her they thought the pandemic was a "hoax," or "political," or targeting some other age group or skin color.​

Gee...wonder where they got those ideas from?