mary, virgin or not

[jargin]

I asked a Christian pastor I know if God is a human male because he must possess human male DNA chromosomes in order to have a child with a human female. I said that its pretty simple, in order to create any child, whether male or female, you need both male and female genetic information in order for the process of reproduction to begin.

His answer was, "Those rules don't apply for God."

I think the logical thing to think here is that Mary was not a virgin, she was just a regular old lady who had a regular little boy with a regular father. Until some virgin living today has a baby and makes the same claim, that she has never had sex with a man and never been artificially inseminated, then our most logical thought should be that it is a Christian myth just like water to wine and raising the dead.

 

[Gharib]

some buddhists do believe, some do not.
does the flea understand anything about the dog he lives on, to him that is all there is.

I believe the existance of a god may well be possible, if i see him i will know for sure its possible.

imagine the foolish flea trying to tell all about the world beyond that he has never seen, imagine the foolish ones who believe him.

God will surely not be angry if i do not believe without seeing, after all he is the one refusing to show himself, his fault not mine.

with all his wisdom surely he would understand that.

so it's foolish to believe in something you haven't seen, but it's not foolish to say that something you haven't seen doesn't exist or that it's existence may be possible even though you haven't seen it?

yeah that makes a lot of sense, just go through my post once again.

you didn't see your parents have intercourse either when they had you, but you believe they had intercourse in order to have you. (don't mean to be rude by that statement, the same applies to me and everyone else)

so it's not about seeing, it's about logic. so here's a question, is it logical to say that things can pop into existence without something prior to it creating it? why didn't any of us pop into existence without having gone through the birth process?

 

[Alceste]

So dont you think havng a ghost mating with a women is 100% mythical in nature?

Did early cultures use this theme often?


Why dont they use them now?

Many early cultures recycled the myth of a man-god born of a union between a woman and a deity, including his death (sacrifice). No doubt the stories started "Long, long ago..." even then.

Why don't we use them now? We do! Look how many people still believe it's literally true.

 

[Alceste]

True in this day and time. Very difficult back then. Personally I think the story was made up....but some young village girl says she was pregnant by the "holy spirit"...yet has never been with a man then it's almost near impossible to prove her wrong unless she was examined.....We could wait a few months until she started to show and then have her examined to see if the hymen is still intact then she may have some credibility....

All we have are stories told in two gospels of such an event. Mark, the supposed earliest of the 4 gospels, is silent on the nativity event. We know that Matthew and Luke drew a lot of their material from Mark...which make me think Luke also copied Matthew and and Matthew simply made his story up.

It doesn't even have to be a lie made up by Mary to avoid getting stoned to death (or forced to marry her rapist, as was the custom). The entire "birth of Jesus" story could simply be untrue from start to finish. Not lies, but a story. How do they say it these days... "based on a true story".

(In film school, my AD instructor played a film and paused it on that phrase, saying "this means that what you are about to see is completely made up.")

 

[payak]

so it's foolish to believe in something you haven't seen, but it's not foolish to say that something you haven't seen doesn't exist or that it's existence may be possible even though you haven't seen it?

yeah that makes a lot of sense, just go through my post once again.

you didn't see your parents have intercourse either when they had you, but you believe they had intercourse in order to have you. (don't mean to be rude by that statement, the same applies to me and everyone else)

so it's not about seeing, it's about logic. so here's a question, is it logical to say that things can pop into existence without something prior to it creating it? why didn't any of us pop into existence without having gone through the birth process?

i was being logical, no sex no children.
did my parents have sex, yes and if not all bow before me now please.
you dont have to see to know all things, the virgin story is not logical.

do muslims and Christian even agree on what exactly jesus is, or how he died, who is right and who is wrong,

 

[Gharib]

I asked a Christian pastor I know if God is a human male because he must possess human male DNA chromosomes in order to have a child with a human female. I said that its pretty simple, in order to create any child, whether male or female, you need both male and female genetic information in order for the process of reproduction to begin.

His answer was, "Those rules don't apply for God."

I think the logical thing to think here is that Mary was not a virgin, she was just a regular old lady who had a regular little boy with a regular father. Until some virgin living today has a baby and makes the same claim, that she has never had sex with a man and never been artificially inseminated, then our most logical thought should be that it is a Christian myth just like water to wine and raising the dead.

although i don't believe what christians believe about Jesus peace be upon him being the son of God, i have to say that you have no understanding of the concept of God and what the religious people believe about God.

 

[Alceste]

Right ...

​

Not that's a story! :yes:

When you grow out of ridiculing Christianity, maybe we can chat about Buddhism.

Enlightenment religions generally don't claim that their founding myths are literally true. You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

[outhouse]

I don't chuck out ALL history as myth, only the history that is very obviously myth. .

thats how I feel. sometimes there is a kernal of truth hidden in the debris.



the whole thing here is we know almost every aspect of the birth and childhood is what amounts to be less then a educated guess, just because it is so mythical.

before Yeshua was 30 he is basically unknown and has very little historicity one can claim with any certainty.

 

[Gharib]

i was being logical, no sex no children.

well the same applies to what you believe, no God to create no existence of universe. but please feel free to rebuke my statement, i would love to read what you have to say.

did my parents have sex, yes and if not all bow before me now please.
you dont have to see to know all things, the virgin story is not logical.

to someone who doesn't believe in God, i agree, it is not logical. but then again who gets to decide the laws of something being logical or illogical, you?

do muslims and Christian even agree on what exactly jesus is, or how he died, who is right and who is wrong.

our differences have nothing to do with anything. we agree his mother was a virgin when she had him and that Jesus is real.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

mary went on to have several more children after Jesus.

So she was a natural woman afterall.

Thats open for debate. Some early christian writings say she was a perputul Virgin. Some say the kids were from Joseph's 1st marriage. Believe what you want. Both sides can be argued.

I personally like the mythology of the perpetual Virgin.

 

[payak]

i should echo what i have already stated many times, i dont believe nor do i not believe in god.
it's possible he exists so i shall wait and see.
but the virgin story, yes i do not believe, i have that right to disbelieve.

I was never a fan of story books, and always annoyed my mother when i questioned the existance of santa clause.

the stories that are beyond reason i find humerous, more so that people believe, the parts that teach you how to behave are fantastic and praise be to all religions and people if they follow these moral codes.

 

[Gharib]

i man no offence to you Payak, i'm not criticizing your lack of belief in God you are free to choose to believe or disbelieve however, i'm criticizing your criticism of those who believe in God.

if our beliefs are humorous and foolish, then what makes yours better? logic sure doesn't.

 

[payak]

I should explain myself better, its hard in such short bursts of writing.

I believe it is truly wonderful that people embrace there religions or gods, all of them, and i mean that.

I think if all bibles, korans, torahs or whatever were followed properly the world would be amazing.

but curiosity will always get me asking questions, no harm intended, the more i question you the more i will understand your religions ways and the more i will respect your people and culture.

 

[Daviso452]

So you are agnostic of God's existence.

 

[payak]

i will believe if i see, but just because i dont see does not mean it does not exist, it just means simply i have not seen.

 

[Gharib]

i will believe if i see, but just because i dont see does not mean it does not exist, it just means simply i have not seen.

Allah, the God whom muslims believe in, has said that on the Day of Judgement when they will witness (see) everything, their repentance will be too late and will not be accepted of them. if you go by what you say now, then that is the time when people will see, however, it will be much too late.

 

[Pegg]

Until some virgin living today has a baby and makes the same claim, that she has never had sex with a man and never been artificially inseminated,

you obviously believe a woman can have a baby without having sex through artificial means

If we can do that, then surely God also has the means to artificially inseminate a woman.

 

[Alceste]

to someone who doesn't believe in God, i agree, it is not logical. but then again who gets to decide the laws of something being logical or illogical, you?

Aristotle.

History of logic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

I don't see discussing miracles would lead to anyhting.

Marry's pregnancy was a miracle.

 

[payak]

if thats true, why would such an amazingly smart god not understand my inner most thought and reasons for not believing and forgive.

after all he should know why i dont, he knows all.

although for some strange reason he did not know adam and eve were wearing clothes until he saw them, he did not know they would eat from the tree when he told them not to.

he did no know lucifer would turn on him along with 1/3 of the Angels, thats a loy of Angels.

seems the all knowing has missed many things he should have known.

so far god is not showing himself, and there is know reason for it, if he does exist its absolutly rediculous to hide out for so long.