Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[Underhill]

Survivors were not acting stupid or unaware. Acting sensibly is something that the vast majority of the time we were already doing shortly before being attacked. It did NOT help.

I'd love to have people list out their trauma and be subjected to this patronizing bull**** that I see in this thread about how they just needed to act sensibly to avoid their attempted murder or something similar.

I was not making any judgement on what they did or did not do. It's irrelevant to the conversation unless someone actually did so. Telling others to be vigilant is not assigning blame to anyone.

As I pointed out, it is no different than telling people to dress warm. Nobody would say you are inditing anyone who had froze to death by doing so. That would be silly.

 

[Revoltingest]

That makes no sense. There is nothing wrong with asking people to act sensibly. That is not victim blaming, it is asking people to be aware and act sensibly as a result. It is no different than advising they wear a coat on a cold night or watch out for drunk drivers on a late night drive home.

You reminded me of something.
A long time ago, in a state far far away, I was returning home from a long bike ride.
Fueled by a soft shelled crab sammich I had for lunch, I was furiouslly pedaling along
on the far right side of the road, leaving plenty of room for safe passing by faster cars.
Bang!
I'm flying a$$ end over teakettle down the road & into the ditch. Some witnesses followed
the perp, who fled to his home. I'm off the to a hospital. Cops got involved....the drunken
perp told them he was disappointed I was alive (a broken neck being his goal.)

Where's this going, you ask?
I saw that I was less aware than I should've been.
Of course, I don't blame myself for what happened.
But I considered what I could do about it.
And I took measures to reduce my risk, even against drunk drivers bent on mayhem.
So I added a rear view mirror to the bike, & one to my helmet.
When I ride now, I continually monitkor cars behind me.
When in doubt, I move well off onto the shoulder.
This means using tires which work on gravel....no more 145psi Vredesteins for me.

Bad things happen.
We can learn from them....or not.
We can take responsibility for possibilities....or not.
Now, I give a whole lotta unsolicited advice on safety....bikes, guns, vehicles, machinery.


Btw.....
The state of Maryland is very tough on drunks who injure people with deadly intent.
They took away the drunk's license for a whole year.
And I'll never play the violin.

 

[Underhill]

You reminded me of something.
A long time ago, in a state far far away, I was returning home from a long bike ride.
Fueled by a soft shelled crab sammich I had for lunch, I was furiouslly pedaling along
on the far right side of the road, leaving plenty of room for safe passing by faster cars.
Bang!
I'm flying a$$ end over teakettle down the road & into the ditch. Some witnesses followed
the perp, who fled to his home. I'm off the to a hospital. Cops got involved....the drunken
perp told them he was disappointed I was alive (a broken neck being his goal.)

Where's this going, you ask?
I saw that I was less aware than I should've been.
Of course, I don't blame myself for what happened.
But I considered what I could do about it.
And I took measures to reduce my risk, even against drunk drivers bent on mayhem.
So I added a rear view mirror to the bike, & one to my helmet.
When I ride now, I continually monitkor cars behind me.
When in doubt, I move well off onto the shoulder.
This means using tires which work on gravel....no more 145psi Vredesteins for me.

Bad things happen.
We can learn from them....or not.
We can take responsibility for possibilities....or not.
Now, I give a whole lotta unsolicited advice on safety....bikes, guns, vehicles, machinery.


Btw.....
The state of Maryland is very tough on drunks who injure people with deadly intent.
They took away the drunk's license for a whole year.
And I'll never play the violin.

I learned a similar lesson back in the day, although the hospital wasn't involved. (I swerved as someone was too close and I blew a tire causing my near demise.) I went from the 700X19 tires I was formerly using to 28 width kevlar lined touring tires.

Now I ride a recumbent and care more about comfort than having the fastest tire.

 

[Revoltingest]

I learned a similar lesson back in the day, although the hospital wasn't involved. (I swerved as someone was too close and I blew a tire causing my near demise.) I went from the 700X19 tires I was formerly using to 28 width kevlar lined touring tires.

Now I ride a recumbent and care more about comfort than having the fastest tire.

Nerd!

I can say that cuz I've ridden 'bents too.
They're they only bike for long rides.
I used to ride an Aerocycle, by Rich Pinto who is now at Bacchetta.

Aye, 28 is the min width for me too.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I was not making any judgement on what they did or did not do. It's irrelevant to the conversation unless someone actually did so. Telling others to be vigilant is not assigning blame to anyone.

This is the same exact problem as I'd pointed out before. The more people tell me my perspective is either irrelevant, hyperbolic, over-emotional, or just not important continues to keep me silent. So, underhill, you and the others who keep insisting that I am wrong will either continue to deny me a perspective to be heard in this conversation or you will actually take what I have to say in consideration.

As I pointed out, it is no different than telling people to dress warm. Nobody would say you are inditing anyone who had froze to death by doing so. That would be silly.

Again, patronizing bull***. This isn't a matter of not dressing warm and freezing to death. This is a systemic problem of people being targeted for assault and battery across cultures and across demographics. The silly argument is the one that tells somebody like me that I just shouldn't let my feelings get hurt and take responsibility for my safety.

You have no idea what I've been through. None.

 

[Underhill]

This is the same exact problem as I'd pointed out before. The more people tell me my perspective is either irrelevant, hyperbolic, over-emotional, or just not important continues to keep me silent. So, underhill, you and the others who keep insisting that I am wrong will either continue to deny me a perspective to be heard in this conversation or you will actually take what I have to say in consideration.

I'm not denying anyone their perspective. You have the right to be wrong. As do I. As does the mayor who is trying to keep his people safe.

Again, patronizing bull***. This isn't a matter of not dressing warm and freezing to death. This is a systemic problem of people being targeted for assault and battery across cultures and across demographics. The silly argument is the one that tells somebody like me that I just shouldn't let my feelings get hurt and take responsibility for my safety.

You have no idea what I've been through. None.

You are right, I don't. Just as you have no idea what I have been through. If you want to have that discussion I am happy to. I would bet my tales of woe are every bit as painful as yours.

But none of that is relevant. Taking a general statement, intended to help those who may otherwise be in harms way, as a personal affront is irrational. Expecting a political figure to not say what most people would take as sensible advise because he may hurt someones feelings is silly.

This kind of attack is evil. The perpetrators should be strung up by their balls. If I were that mayor I would do everything I could, say whatever I could, to avoid more attacks of this kind and keep more people out of harms way. Anything else is irresponsible.

 

[Thanda]

This is the same exact problem as I'd pointed out before. The more people tell me my perspective is either irrelevant, hyperbolic, over-emotional, or just not important continues to keep me silent. So, underhill, you and the others who keep insisting that I am wrong will either continue to deny me a perspective to be heard in this conversation or you will actually take what I have to say in consideration.

You and DS have both failed to provide evidence that advice to potential victims of crime (any crime, sexual assault is not special) amounts to victim blaming. You keep conflating what you have heard and been through in your life with what this thread is about: which is the advice the mayor gave to people who were going to attend an upcoming event about what they can do to be safer.

That is what this whole thread is about. Not about what happened to me (I have actually also been a victim of assault) or you or how it makes people feel or whether it is the most sensitive thing to do or not. It is about advice being given to people who could be in a dangerous situation in the near future. That's it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm not denying anyone their perspective. You have the right to be wrong. As do I. As does the mayor who is trying to keep his people safe.



You are right, I don't. Just as you have no idea what I have been through. If you want to have that discussion I am happy to. I would bet my tales of woe are every bit as painful as yours.

Not a contest. I've had a stroke. I've been burglarized. I've been the survivor of domestic violence. I'm a survivor of a brutal sexual assault. All of which have had specific effects and specific risk factors that I am well aware of as well as how I can do what I can to prevent.

The number one way of preventing sexual assault is not to become trusting of sociopaths. Why? Because the majority of survivors knew their perpetrators.

But none of that is relevant. Taking a general statement, intended to help those who may otherwise be in harms way, as a personal affront is irrational. Expecting a political figure to not say what most people would take as sensible advise because he may hurt someones feelings is silly.

It ISN'T sensible advice. It's condescending and unrealistic and perpetuates rape myths that people love love love to hold on to as "truth."

This kind of attack is evil. The perpetrators should be strung up by their balls. If I were that mayor I would do everything I could, say whatever I could, to avoid more attacks of this kind and keep more people out of harms way. Anything else is irresponsible.

You and DS have both failed to provide evidence that advice to potential victims of crime (any crime, sexual assault is not special) amounts to victim blaming. You keep conflating what you have heard and been through in your life with what this thread is about: which is the advice the mayor gave to people who were going to attend an upcoming event about what they can do to be safer.

That is what this whole thread is about. Not about what happened to me (I have actually also been a victim of assault) or you or how it makes people feel or whether it is the most sensitive thing to do or not. It is about advice being given to people who could be in a dangerous situation in the near future. That's it.

Again, you can stop trying to convince your ilk with the notion that I'm screaming foul like a delicate special flower who's fee fees have been hurt. I've volunteered at crisis centers. I've advocated for peer survivors. I've answered phone calls. I've talked with various task forces in law enforcement, emergency care, and legal services. I'm actually telling you that my voice not just as a survivor but as someone who WORKS with survivors is an important voice in this conversation.

And again, what the mayor said and the smug and cavalier attitude of internet "just trying to help" is as helpful as a novice who feels bad for people with cataracts taking a knife and trying to cut them out themselves without anesthetic or training.

Basically, it doesn't help and backfires horribly.

 

[Thanda]

The number one way of preventing sexual assault is not to become trusting of sociopaths. Why? Because the majority of survivors knew their perpetrators.

We know that. The question is, did the women in cologne who were attacked by an immigrant population know their attackers? Were the women in cologne likely to know the people who might attack them at the upcoming carnival? Please keep in mind what this thread is about and stop confusing issues.

 

[Underhill]

Not a contest. I've had a stroke. I've been burglarized. I've been the survivor of domestic violence. I'm a survivor of a brutal sexual assault. All of which have had specific effects and specific risk factors that I am well aware of as well as how I can do what I can to prevent.

The number one way of preventing sexual assault is not to become trusting of sociopaths. Why? Because the majority of survivors knew their perpetrators.

It ISN'T sensible advice. It's condescending and unrealistic and perpetuates rape myths that people love love love to hold on to as "truth."

Except that in this case, it was sensible. This was not people they knew perpetrating the crime, it was street crime perpetrated by strangers.

Again, you can stop trying to convince your ilk with the notion that I'm screaming foul like a delicate special flower who's fee fees have been hurt. I've volunteered at crisis centers. I've advocated for peer survivors. I've answered phone calls. I've talked with various task forces in law enforcement, emergency care, and legal services. I'm actually telling you that my voice not just as a survivor but as someone who WORKS with survivors is an important voice in this conversation.

This may be the case if you were talking about the typical rape case. This is not that.

And again, what the mayor said and the smug and cavalier attitude of internet "just trying to help" is as helpful as a novice who feels bad for people with cataracts taking a knife and trying to cut them out themselves without anesthetic or training.

Basically, it doesn't help and backfires horribly.

I don't know how the mayor said it as I was not there. But reading what he actually said this was not that at all, some of his advice was excellent, some of it was good normally but not much use on the train (where many of these incidents happened). They were, and are, concerned about these men who come into town and assaulted women on the street or on the train.

You are trying to turn this into something it isn't. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to think they were blaming or shaming the victims.

 

[FearGod]

Many of the refugees (up to 20% according to some statistics) adhere to an ideology that is either that of ISIS or very close to that of ISIS. These people consider themselves invaders in the name of Islam. Non-Muslim women are liable to be taken as sex slaves.

How do you know that they think so, Does Islam inform them to be drunk as well?
Many Muslims are atheists and they drink wines and rape women which is against the teachings of Islam

 

[FearGod]

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out that it has become clear to me that some people hate women being given advice about their safety. This even though police are always giving advice to citizens of both sexes about various ways to keep safe. E.g. Getting very drunk while out at night has landed many women into trouble. And yet when advice is given to women to not drink so much it is viewed as "victim blaming" and an attempt to control women's movements. Which is ridiculous.

We live in a dangerous world. And we can't always control what other people do. But we can limit their potential to harm us by making wise decisions.

Like asking the public to keep their doors well closed to prevent the thieves from entering
their houses, looks like blaming the public.

 

[FearGod]

Pointing out that the victim should or shouldn't have done X or Y instead of focusing on the perpetrator of the crime does amount to victim-blaming. It's like saying, "Yes, I know you got assaulted by a violent criminal, but you are at fault for not avoiding him in the first place."

An advice isn't blaming, asking the citizens to be aware from the light-fingered doesn't mean
the citizen are blamed for being plundered.

 

[Revoltingest]

An advice isn't blaming, asking the citizens to be aware from the light-fingered doesn't mean
the citizen are blamed for being plundered.

Aye....I've been assaulted more than once, by people I knew & by people I didn't.
(Lucky to have survived that hit & run episode....just a broken leg & a few bumps.)
I've been robbed by people I knew & people I didn't....the ones I know are the worst.
Ya know what?
I've learned some things. I'm getting better at avoiding trouble.
To alter an old saw.....whatever doesn't kill me makes me smarter.
Sure, sure....new troubles await. There are no guarantees in life.
People deserve to benefit from my experiences without having to endure them.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

We know that. The question is, did the women in cologne who were attacked by an immigrant population know their attackers? Were the women in cologne likely to know the people who might attack them at the upcoming carnival? Please keep in mind what this thread is about and stop confusing issues.

Except that in this case, it was sensible. This was not people they knew perpetrating the crime, it was street crime perpetrated by strangers.



This may be the case if you were talking about the typical rape case. This is not that.



I don't know how the mayor said it as I was not there. But reading what he actually said this was not that at all, some of his advice was excellent, some of it was good normally but not much use on the train (where many of these incidents happened). They were, and are, concerned about these men who come into town and assaulted women on the street or on the train.

You are trying to turn this into something it isn't. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to think they were blaming or shaming the victims.

Oh please...find me some evidence that this advice is helpful.

And let's not assume what I'm trying to do here. But the least anyone in this thread can do is listen to somebody like me and take what I have to say in consideration.

It's clear you have no intentions of doing that.

 

[Revoltingest]

... nice way to casually dismiss the experience and knowledge of a survivor and volunteer who has actually worked with other survivors instead of sitting online to dismiss others' experiences.
But I'm really not surprised. Why? Men are still posting sexist, ignorant, patronizing garbage in this thread. They have done so for many pages. I'm not surprised that it's still going on.

Is this not broadly dismissing the viewpoints of men?
Is your viewpoint the singular truth, or is there any merit in what any men here have to say?
What is your view of the women who side with men?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Is this not broadly dismissing the viewpoints of men?

Dismissing the viewpoints of men who ignore the experience of survivors and rape crisis workers? Yes, of course.

 

[Revoltingest]

Dismissing the viewpoints of men who ignore the experience of survivors and rape crisis workers? Yes, of course.

How do you know they're being ignored?
And I had 2 other relevant questions.

 

[Debater Slayer]

How do you know they're being ignored?

See my previous post. I quoted a post that directly dismissed them in a casual, careless manner.

And I had 2 other relevant questions.

You edited your post after I had quoted it. I will respond now.

Is your viewpoint the singular truth, or is there any merit in what any men here have to say?
What is your view of the women who side with men?

1) I don't see any merit in their claims in the last... many pages of this thread.

2) I know a lot of sexist and misogynistic women; however, as I said before, I'm usually inclined to discuss women's rights issues with women more than with men who adopt a sexist position from their privileged (yes, privileged) vantage point. I especially have unequivocal contempt for backward cultures where most men have sexist beliefs when their culture places them over women in different aspects of life.

 

[Revoltingest]

See my previous post. I quoted a post that directly dismissed them in a casual, careless manner.

Would a single post apply to men here in general?

1) I don't see any merit in their claims in the last... many pages of this thread.

So my experience, & how it affected me is meritless & of no consequence?

2) I know a lot of sexist and misogynistic women; however, as I said before, I'm usually inclined to discuss women's rights issues with women more than with men who adopt a sexist position from their privileged (yes, privileged) vantage point. I especially have unequivocal contempt for backward cultures where most men have sexist beliefs when their culture places them over women in different aspects of life.

The mayor & women here who disagree with you are utterly wrong?