Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[MysticSang'ha]

"You have the right to be wrong"... nice way to casually dismiss the experience and knowledge of a survivor and volunteer who has actually worked with other survivors instead of sitting online to dismiss others' experiences.

But I'm really not surprised. Why? Men are still posting sexist, ignorant, patronizing garbage in this thread. They have done so for many pages. I'm not surprised that it's still going on.

And then there's this:



Considering your previous posts on different topics, I'm also not surprised. A man embracing the backward, anachronistic culture of the Middle East is defending "rape prevention measures." Shocking.

Next up: Men meet up on the Internet to decide that rape survivors don't have sufficient knowledge or experience to criticize supposed rape prevention measures. Of course, men embracing backward desert "values" and cultures are invited as well.

You're such a misandrist, DS, saying things like "men this" and "men that." That's so wrong and never as good as saying "wimmin folk this" and "females need to blah blah blah that."

Because talking about what women do or need to do is just being rational. Any deviation from that inspires people to remind everyone that #notallmen are like that.

You White Knight, you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Would a single post apply to men here in general?

It directly embodies the mentality and attitude that underlie many of the posts in this thread.

So my experience, & how it affected me is meritless & of no consequence?

Have you ever been sexually assaulted? Have you ever worked in rape crisis centers? At the very least, have you talked to a lot of rape survivors and listened to what they had to say about their experience?

The mayor & women here who disagree with you are utterly wrong?

The mayor is miserably wrong, and her position is wrong regardless of whether a man or a woman supports it. I find it more sickening when privileged groups adopt discriminatory beliefs, however, which is why I have stronger criticism for men who perpetuate rape myths and sexism.

 

[Revoltingest]

It directly embodies the mentality and attitude that underlie many of the posts in this thread.

Does this mean it's a problem with men in general?

Have you ever been sexually assaulted? Have you ever worked in rape crisis centers? At the very least, have you talked to a lot of rape survivors and listened to what they had to say about their experience?

No.
No.
Yes.
Is sexual assault the only experience which qualifies one to talk?
If so, then have you?

The mayor is miserably wrong, and her position is wrong regardless of whether a man or a woman supports it. I find it more sickening when privileged groups adopt discriminatory beliefs, however, which is why I have stronger criticism for men who perpetuate rape myths and sexism.

This is gender based discrimination directed at posters.
Do you think it's ethical?
What relevant privilege do I have which female posters lack?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Does this mean it's a problem with men in general?

With hundreds of millions of men, yes. In fact, while I have no way to be 100% certain of the claim, I wouldn't say it would be very unreasonable to say that most men in the world are sexist.

No.
No.
Yes.
Is sexual assault the only experience which qualifies one to talk?
If so, then have you?

Having first-hand experience of sexual assault and working in rape crisis centers definitely qualifies someone to talk with more certainty than the average person. Dismissing such qualified explanations is not only uninformed but also downright irresponsible.

This is gender based discrimination directed at posters.
Do you think it's ethical?
What relevant privilege do I have which female posters lack?

I believe the differentiation I make between people based on gender is justified in this particular case. It's not about having any privileges over anyone on this forum; it's about the privileges most men enjoy over women in varying aspects of life.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You're such a misandrist, DS, saying things like "men this" and "men that." That's so wrong and never as good as saying "wimmin folk this" and "females need to blah blah blah that."

Because talking about what women do or need to do is just being rational. Any deviation from that inspires people to remind everyone that #notallmen are like that.

You White Knight, you.

Yeah... next thing you know I will be like those Social Justice Warriors talking about privilege and "mansplaining."

Oh, wait... too late. I think I'm a lost cause now. One more victim of "feminazism"!

 

[Revoltingest]

Having first-hand experience of sexual assault and working in rape crisis centers definitely qualifies someone to talk with more certainty than the average person. Dismissing such qualified explanations is not only uninformed but also downright irresponsible.

The problem here seems to be confusing disagreement with feelings of dismissal.
To find sexual assault so fundamentally different from other kinds of assault looks
fallacious. Those who've endured the latter have just as legitimate an opinion.
And to rank men lower in legitimacy simply because of gender is wrongful discrimination.

What I'm observing here is not mere discussion, debate & disagreement.
Rather, it's the denial of any merit, based primarily upon gender.
Essentially, it's saying that males who disagree are wrong because they're male.
This isn't evidenced or logical.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The problem here seems to be confusing disagreement with feelings of dismissal.
To find sexual assault so fundamentally different from other kinds of assault looks
fallacious. Those who've endured the latter have just as legitimate an opinion.
And to rank men lower in legitimacy simply because of gender is wrongful discrimination.

Disagreement based on nothing more than conjecture is not a legitimate opinion; it is uninformed and irresponsible.

What I'm observing here is not mere discussion, debate & disagreement.
Rather, it's the denial of any merit, based primarily upon gender.
Essentially, it's saying that males who disagree are wrong because they're male.
This isn't evidenced or logical.

The claims are without merit. The privileged status of those embracing them just puts salt on the wound.

 

[Revoltingest]

Disagreement based on nothing more than conjecture is not a legitimate opinion; it is uninformed and irresponsible.

We agree in theory, but not in application.

The claims are without merit. The privileged status of those embracing them just puts salt on the wound.

Okey dokey.

 

[FearGod]

Considering your previous posts on different topics, I'm also not surprised. A man embracing the backward, anachronistic culture of the Middle East is defending "rape prevention measures." Shocking.

Do you think Japan is embracing the backward of the Middle east by specializing women-only passenger cars?
The thing that you don't want to understand that bad people exist all the time and it isn't an awful idea to think
of prevention measures, it's even stupid and dangerous as to ignore it.

Next up: Men meet up on the Internet to decide that rape survivors don't have sufficient knowledge or experience to criticize supposed rape prevention measures. Of course, men embracing backward desert "values" and cultures are invited as well.

So we have to assume that people are aware of the light-fingered and the thieves....etc and hence it is a backward
idea to advise and warn them to be aware of the thieves and the pickpockets.

Also implying that the idea is a middle eastern one and a backward desert values is insulting the
the people of the middle east and the people who agree with the mayor as well which is utterly
rude and stupid.

 

[Thanda]

Oh please...find me some evidence that this advice is helpful.

And let's not assume what I'm trying to do here. But the least anyone in this thread can do is listen to somebody like me and take what I have to say in consideration.

It's clear you have no intentions of doing that.

We have taken into consideration what you have said and have found that what you say, while probably right and applicable to most rape situations, is not applicable to the rape situations that this thread is concerned about. This is not a rape thread. This is a thread about rape in Cologne. The type of rape in Cologne that this thread is interested in is the type committed by strangers in public places.

 

[Thanda]

"You have the right to be wrong"... nice way to casually dismiss the experience and knowledge of a survivor and volunteer who has actually worked with other survivors instead of sitting online to dismiss others' experiences.

But I'm really not surprised. Why? Men are still posting sexist, ignorant, patronizing garbage in this thread. They have done so for many pages. I'm not surprised that it's still going on.

What value does her experience and knowledge have when she keeps talking about rapists who are known to their victims while this thread is about rapists who are not known to their victims?

Considering your previous posts on different topics, I'm also not surprised. A man embracing the backward, anachronistic culture of the Middle East is defending "rape prevention measures." Shocking.

Seeing as you're so against rape prevention measures, why don't you have a quarrel Mystic and tell her to stop teaching self defense techniques and such things to other women including survivors

 

[FearGod]

Prevention measures for women

4 Ways Women Can Protect Themselves from Predators

One of the ways is to fight back and to strike at one specific moments.
http://www.livescience.com/36929-safety-self-defense-tips-women.html

The prevention measures don't blame women but just advising them to be aware and alert.
Why that is hard to understand?

 

[Flankerl]

Ah yes the single woman should attack the 20 or so males around her.

Thats a valid strategy.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What value does her experience and knowledge have when she keeps talking about rapists who are known to their victims while this thread is about rapists who are not known to their victims?

Read her posts again. The difference between the measures proposed by the mayor and her supporters and what people like Mystic are suggesting is that the latter is based on actual experience and is proved to be effective.

Seeing as you're so against rape prevention measures, why don't you have a quarrel Mystic and tell her to stop teaching self defense techniques and such things to other women including survivors

I'm not against prevention measures; I'm against condescending "advice" and victim-blaming. Self-defense techniques are effective measures, but nobody should be told that they could have prevented their being assaulted if they had learned self-defense techniques.

 

[Thanda]

Read her posts again. The difference between the measures proposed by the mayor and her supporters and what people like Mystic are suggesting is that the latter is based on actual experience and is proved to be effective.

So the Mayor's advice is not as awesome as Mystics. Well no one ever said it was. All we said, which is the subject of this thread, is that the mayor given advice was not an act of victim blaming. Do you concede this?

I'm not against prevention measures; I'm against condescending "advice" and victim-blaming. Self-defense techniques are effective measures, but nobody should be told that they could have prevented their being assaulted if they had learned self-defense techniques.

Aaaand the flip-flopping begins. Here is what you said to FearGod:

A man embracing the backward, anachronistic culture of the Middle East is defending "rape prevention measures." Shocking.​

Note very carefully that you did not say "defending unproven/unresearched/ineffective rape prevention measures". You simply said "rape prevention measures". Further more you put double quotes around the term "rape prevention measures". Now if I'm not dumb that signifies your belief that the very concept is bogus.

But now all of a sudden, when you realise that a fellow feminist actually believes in rape prevention measures, they are no longer such an outrageous idea. Now suddenly the difference is hers are well researched. Now tell me again, how exactly do you know there was no research done by the mayor in regards to her proposed rape prevention measures?

 

[Debater Slayer]

So the Mayor's advice is not as awesome as Mystics. Well no one ever said it was. All we said, which is the subject of this thread, is that the mayor given advice was not an act of victim blaming. Do you concede this?

I can't call a "code of conduct" supposed to prevent rape anything other than victim-blaming and poorly thought out rhetoric.

Aaaand the flip-flopping begins. Here is what you said to FearGod:

A man embracing the backward, anachronistic culture of the Middle East is defending "rape prevention measures." Shocking.​

Note very carefully that you did not say "defending unproven/unresearched/ineffective rape prevention measures". You simply said "rape prevention measures". Further more you put double quotes around the term "rape prevention measures". Now if I'm not dumb that signifies your belief that the very concept is bogus.

But now all of a sudden, when you realise that a fellow feminist actually believes in rape prevention measures, they are no longer such an outrageous idea. Now suddenly the difference is hers are well researched. Now tell me again, how exactly do you know there was no research done by the mayor in regards to her proposed rape prevention measures?

The double quotes signify my skepticism of the particular measures the mayor proposed. There is no flip-flopping; I have been aware of Mystic's position all along. There is a reason I agree with her posts; I read them well.

The fact that the mayor proposed failed and ineffective measures betrays a lack of sufficient research or an overlooking thereof. Either she didn't do enough research or she did and overlooked it when she made her comments.

 

[Thanda]

I can't call a "code of conduct" supposed to prevent rape anything other than victim-blaming and poorly thought out rhetoric.

Oh, so now you're against codes of conduct? Do you know that when you go into a zoo or national park there is a code of conduct so that you avoid an accident? Is your being against a code of conduct a general theory or is it a position you hold specifically on rape?

The double quotes signify my skepticism of the particular measures the mayor proposed. There is no flip-flopping; I have been aware of Mystic's position all along. There is a reason I agree with her posts; I read them well.

More flip-flopping. Now suddenly you are referring to the mayor's rape prevention measures. You specifically said you were not surprised that FearGod was defending rape prevention measures. You did not say you were surprised he was defending the mayors rape prevention measures. Remember in the beginning of this thread when you told Revoltingest that you did not care what the mayor's intentions were and you were only interested in her words? Remember when you stated that you felt completely justified in calling other poster's here misogynists and sexist purely on their words with no worry about their intentions?

Look now at the pickle you are in. You have said, words which mean one thing while you claim they meant something else. That should make you think next time before you judge people without understanding their intentions.

The fact that the mayor proposed failed and ineffective measures betrays a lack of sufficient research or an overlooking thereof. Either she didn't do enough research or she did and overlooked it when she made her comments.

What evidence do you have of her measures failing?

 

[Revoltingest]

....those who have accused me of being anti-male apparently forgot that I'm a male.......

A parenthetical aside about misogyny & misandry.....
One is not disqualified from misogyny by being female, nor from misandry by being male.
From google, misandry is....
"dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e., the male sex)."
And misogyny is......
"dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."

We see in these typical & common definitions, that gender isn't a criterion in application.
We may also observe that there are males with prejudice against their own gender, & will even openly state this.

 

[Underhill]

Oh please...find me some evidence that this advice is helpful.

And let's not assume what I'm trying to do here. But the least anyone in this thread can do is listen to somebody like me and take what I have to say in consideration.

It's clear you have no intentions of doing that.

I actually have done that. I acknowledge you may have more knowledge than me on any number of subjects. But what you are trying to do is equate your experience with a situation that is completely different.

I would bet I have more experience driving than most anyone on the forum. Well over a million miles driving everything from motorcycles to oversize loads. That doesn't make me an expert on trains or dirigibles.

 

[Revoltingest]

I actually have done that. I acknowledge you may have more knowledge than me on any number of subjects. But what you are trying to do is equate your experience with a situation that is completely different.

I would bet I have more experience driving than most anyone on the forum. Well over a million miles driving everything from motorcycles to oversize loads. That doesn't make me an expert on trains or dirigibles.

But I also observe your courtesy in allowing us less experienced drivers to opine about matters related to driving.
You don't disqualify us because of who we are. Rather, you deal with the merit of our posts.

It must be difficult to place limits upon who may or may not opine about certain matters.
One must know both the gender & life experiences of each poster.
I can't remember so many things about so many people.