Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[Debater Slayer]

Oh, so now you're against codes of conduct? Do you know that when you go into a zoo or national park there is a code of conduct so that you avoid an accident? Is your being against a code of conduct a general theory or is it a position you hold specifically on rape?

In this case I'm talking about rape. I haven't seen any evidence that a code of conduct like what the mayor proposed is useful for preventing rape.

More flip-flopping. Now suddenly you are referring to the mayor's rape prevention measures. You specifically said you were not surprised that FearGod was defending rape prevention measures. You did not say you were surprised he was defending the mayors rape prevention measures. Remember in the beginning of this thread when you told Revoltingest that you did not care what the mayor's intentions were and you were only interested in her words? Remember when you stated that you felt completely justified in calling other poster's here misogynists and sexist purely on their words with no worry about their intentions?

Look now at the pickle you are in. You have said, words which mean one thing while you claim they meant something else. That should make you think next time before you judge people without understanding their intentions.

In reference to the mayor's proposed measures, I put "rape prevention measures" in quotes. I don't see what's so hard to comprehend about that. If you don't get what I meant, I don't care much. I believe I was clear enough, especially so because I know there are posters who understood what I meant.

What evidence do you have of her measures failing?

That's not how it works. The burden is on her to show that her advice is effective. I can't just propose anything out of the blue and ask people to provide evidence that it doesn't work; it falls on me to provide evidence that it does.

 

[Debater Slayer]

A parenthetical aside about misogyny & misandry.....
One is not disqualified from misogyny by being female, nor from misandry by being male.
From google, misandry is....
"dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e., the male sex)."
And misogyny is......
"dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."

We see in these typical & common definitions, that gender isn't a criterion in application.
We may also observe that there are males with prejudice against their own gender, & will even openly state this.

I don't disagree, but I find it unreasonable that someone would accuse me of insulting Middle Eastern people when my family, my friends, and I are Middle Eastern. I think it is both unreasonable and even potentially dangerous to confuse criticism of certain cultural values with insulting people.

 

[Thanda]

In this case I'm talking about rape. I haven't seen any evidence that a code of conduct like what the mayor proposed is useful for preventing rape.

Great so you haven't seen evidence. And because you haven't seen evidence your assumption is to assume no one else has and further to assume that since you, the knower of all things, don't have the evidence then the evidence doesn't exist. And since according to your all knowing self the evidence doesn't exist you are entitled to call the Mayor a victim blamer?

In reference to the mayor's proposed measures, I put "rape prevention measures" in quotes. I don't see what's so hard to comprehend about that. If you don't get what I meant, I don't care much. I believe I was clear enough, especially so because I know there are posters who understood what I meant.

Your statement was general and you know it. At the very least you must admit that your words were general whether you meant something else or not. That is the point. Please find me those other posters who will dispute this.

That's not how it works. The burden is on her to show that her advice is effective. I can't just propose anything out of the blue and ask people to provide evidence that it doesn't work; it falls on me to provide evidence that it does.

That is exactly how it works. You said:

"The fact that the mayor proposed failed and ineffective measures betrays a lack of sufficient research or an overlooking thereof. Either she didn't do enough research or she did and overlooked it when she made her comments."​

You made a statement of fact - you said her measures have failed and they are ineffective. "Failed" indicates a past event. You now need to prove that this event happened. "Ineffective" also indicates that you have knowledge of some prior test that was done to confirm the ineffectiveness of the measures. You must now tell us about this research or experiment that proves the specific measures proposed by the mayor are ineffective.

Be careful with language, you will be taken at your word.

 

[Thanda]

I don't disagree, but I find it unreasonable that someone would accuse me of insulting Middle Eastern people when my family, my friends, and I are Middle Eastern. I think it is both unreasonable and even potentially dangerous to confuse criticism of certain cultural values with insulting people.

There is little doubt that you have been insulting of middle eastern people. You have not only criticised "certain" cultural values but you have criticised the whole culture. You have called it backward and anachronistic. Of their values you termed them "values" to indicate your low opinion of them. I do not care whether or not you are middle-eastern just like I would not care whether or not someone is black who made blanket statements about black culture or black people or black men etc.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Great so you haven't seen evidence. And because you haven't seen evidence your assumption is to assume no one else has and further to assume that since you, the knower of all things, don't have the evidence then the evidence doesn't exist. And since according to your all knowing self the evidence doesn't exist you are entitled to call the Mayor a victim blamer?

Where is that evidence you claim to have seen, then?

Your statement was general and you know it. At the very least you must admit that your words were general whether you meant something else or not. That is the point. Please find me those other posters who will dispute this.

Well, like I said, if you don't or can't comprehend what I said, I don't care much. There's not much I can do about that anyway.

That is exactly how it works. You said:

"The fact that the mayor proposed failed and ineffective measures betrays a lack of sufficient research or an overlooking thereof. Either she didn't do enough research or she did and overlooked it when she made her comments."​

You made a statement of fact - you said her measures have failed and they are ineffective. "Failed" indicates a past event. You now need to prove that this event happened. "Ineffective" also indicates that you have knowledge of some prior test that was done to confirm the ineffectiveness of the measures. You must now tell us about this research or experiment that proves the specific measures proposed by the mayor are ineffective.

Be careful with language, you will be taken at your word.

The women who were assaulted in Cologne didn't go close to the attackers; the attackers went close to them. This alone is evidence that the mayor's advice is ineffective, not to speak of the rape myths it perpetuates. A lot of people in different countries repeat such "advice" even when women get assaulted while doing everything they can to prevent getting assaulted. Just look at Saudi Arabia or Iran. One would think no sexual harassment or assault would ever occur there if such "codes of conduct" were actually useful.

 

[Debater Slayer]

There is little doubt that you have been insulting of middle eastern people. You have not only criticised "certain" cultural values but you have criticised the whole culture. You have called it backward and anachronistic. Of their values you termed them "values" to indicate your low opinion of them. I do not care whether or not you are middle-eastern just like I would not care whether or not someone is black who made blanket statements about black culture or black people or black men etc.

So you actually think you are in any position whatsoever to tell someone whose family and closest friends are Middle Eastern--not to mention being Middle Eastern himself--that he intentionally insulted Middle Eastern people. And then you try to tell me with a straight face that I shouldn't say the mayor's words were victim-blaming and that I shouldn't make that judgment.

The irony and inconsistency are astounding.

I do want to clarify something, though: when I said the "backward, anachronistic culture of the Middle East," I didn't specify that I meant the statement to be critical of Middle Eastern culture on the whole while acknowledging that there are some positive aspects of it. I should have mentioned that having a negative opinion of it overall doesn't mean I see no positives whatsoever in it. Still, I stand by my statement that most values of Middle Eastern culture are backward and anachronostic, and I think that, having lived my whole life in the Middle East, I have the right to make a judgment of the culture.

 

[Thanda]

So you actually think you are in any position whatsoever to tell someone whose family and closest friends are Middle Eastern--not to mention being Middle Eastern himself--that he intentionally insulted Middle Eastern people. And then you try to tell me with a straight face that I shouldn't say the mayor's words were victim-blaming and that I shouldn't make that judgment.

The irony and inconsistency are astounding.

Yes I do. Just as you are all too happy to call the mayor (a woman who has suffered a life-threatening assault) a victim blamer that is offering failed and ineffective (for which you have yet to offer any proof) rape prevention measures.

It is you who has led us down this road. Don't pretend now to be "astounded".

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes I do. Just as you are all too happy to call the mayor (a woman who has suffered a life-threatening assault) a victim blamer that is offering failed and ineffective (for which you have yet to offer any proof) rape prevention measures.

It is you who has led us down this road. Don't pretend now to be "astounded".

I have edited the post you quoted above for more clarity. Also, criticizing a culture, no matter how harshly, doesn't necessarily amount to insulting or even criticizing people. I don't know how you can't see that distinction even if you believe my intentions are different from what I'm stating. This seems to me to be basic comprehension of what is being said.

As for the mayor's survival of an assault, she should have stayed away from her attacker. I'm not blaming her, of course; I'm just offering sensible advice for other people.

 

[FearGod]

In this case I'm talking about rape. I haven't seen any evidence that a code of conduct like what the mayor proposed is useful for preventing rape.

Her advice actually is very useful, women should keep a distance and be alert and asking
the help from the crowd, many will offer their help and support.

Here's one evidence that it works, a woman was groped by a man, she asked for the help and some
guys surrounded him and called the police.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Her advice actually is very useful, women should keep a distance and be alert and asking
the help from the crowd, many will offer their help and support.

Here's one evidence that it works, a woman was groped by a man, she asked for the help and some
guys surrounded him and called the police.

What about when attackers get close to women and there are so many of them (the attackers) that asking for help is unfeasible?

 

[FearGod]

What about when attackers get close to women and there are so many of them (the attackers) that asking for help is unfeasible?

The bad guys will be much less than the good ones.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The bad guys will be much less than the good ones.

Except that the report states that there were about 1,000 men attacking far fewer women. There is just no way to effectively ask for help from people who are so outnumbered.

 

[FearGod]

Except that the report states that there were about 1,000 men attacking far fewer women. There is just no way to effectively ask for help from people who are so outnumbered.

Did you count them?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Did you count them?

The report says they were about that number, and even if the report were wrong (which I doubt it is), it seems clear to me from all indications that the victims were largely outnumbered by the attackers.

 

[FearGod]

The report says they were about that number, and even if the report were wrong (which I doubt it is), it seems clear to me from all indications that the victims were largely outnumbered by the attackers.

If they counted them as a 1,000 then they saw them otherwise how did they count them and who did count them.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If they counted them as a 1,000 then they saw them otherwise how did they count them and who did count them.

Ask the authorities, not me. Also, eyewitnesses may have been unable to do anything about the attacks despite seeing them.

 

[FearGod]

Ask the authorities, not me. Also, eyewitnesses may have been unable to do anything about the attacks despite seeing them.

So you believe without seeing, good that you don't believe about God.

 

[Debater Slayer]

So you believe without seeing, good that you don't believe about God.

Are you actually trying to say that I shouldn't believe anything unless I see it myself? That's quite an unreasonable stretch, I would say.

 

[Thanda]

I have edited the post you quoted above for more clarity. Also, criticizing a culture, no matter how harshly, doesn't necessarily amount to insulting or even criticizing people. I don't know how you can't see that distinction even if you believe my intentions are different from what I'm stating. This seems to me to be basic comprehension of what is being said.

We are nothing without our properties. The people of the middle-east created and/or uphold the culture you insult so much. They therefore identify it as an essential part of who they are. To insult it is to insult them.

As for the mayor's survival of an assault, she should have stayed away from her attacker. I'm not blaming her, of course; I'm just offering sensible advice for other people.

You really aren't good with words are you? First you say "she should have stayed away from her attacker" then you say "I'm just offering sensible advice for other people." Are you for real?

I repeat: Be careful with language, you will be taken at your word.

 

[Debater Slayer]

We are nothing without our properties. The people of the middle-east created and/or uphold the culture you insult so much. They therefore identify it as an essential part of who they are. To insult it is to insult them.

We have a rule on this very forum that criticizing members' ideas and beliefs is fair game while criticizing or attacking the members themselves isn't. The former doesn't equal the latter. If it did, we would be insulting everyone we disagreed with by the sheer virtue of disagreeing with them.

I know Middle Eastern culture from the inside out. I have lived my whole life in the Middle East. I think I'm fully entitled to my judgment of the culture on the whole. From my point of view as a secular person, the positive aspects of the culture are outweighed by the negative ones.

You really aren't good with words are you? First you say "she should have stayed away from her attacker" then you say "I'm just offering sensible advice for other people." Are you for real?

I repeat: Be careful with language, you will be taken at your word.

I'm just mirroring the mayor's words that came right after a mass assault to "advise" other people. If it's fair for her to make such comments after the assault of those women, it's fair for me to say she should have stayed away from the attacker and warn other people not to repeat her mistake.