Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[FearGod]

Are you actually trying to say that I shouldn't believe anything unless I see it myself? That's quite an unreasonable stretch, I would say.

Did i generalized it ?!

 

[Debater Slayer]

Did i generalized it ?!

Then you believe that it can be reasonable to believe things without seeing them ourselves, right? Why do you find it unreasonable to believe the reports about the number of attackers in Cologne?

 

[FearGod]

Then you believe that it can be reasonable to believe things without seeing them ourselves, right? Why do you find it unreasonable to believe the reports about the number of attackers in Cologne?

Because it doesn't make sense.
A report says that the astronauts landed on the sun, should i believe it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Because it doesn't make sense.
A report says that the astronauts landed on the sun, should i believe it.

Why doesn't it make sense? How were all of those women assaulted, then?

 

[FearGod]

Why doesn't it make sense? How were all of those women assaulted, then?

Where're they? how you know if they were telling the truth or not? why you believe without seeing it yourself?
What if the same guys were moving from one place to one another and doing the same job?
If you believe then show us your evidence?

 

[Thanda]

We have a rule on this very forum that criticizing members' ideas and beliefs is fair game while criticizing or attacking the members themselves isn't. The former doesn't equal the latter. If it did, we would be insulting everyone we disagreed with by the sheer virtue of disagreeing with them.

I know Middle Eastern culture from the inside out. I have lived my whole life in the Middle East. I think I'm fully entitled to my judgment of the culture on the whole. From my point of view as a secular person, the positive aspects of the culture are outweighed by the negative ones.

If I say: you are stupid, you may say I have insulted you. But I may say I was not insulting you I was insulting thinking capacity. And I could use a similar line about practically any insult you could conceive. This is why I said we are nothing without our properties. People's cultures and beliefs are something they consider an integral part of themselves. It is hard to speak of it as dismissively as you have without in effect insulting the people who identify themselves with that culture. And please do not say "I also identify myself with that culture and I don't feel insulted" because you clearly don't. You have repeatedly called the culture a middle-eastern, and desert culture. Very rarely if ever have you referred to it as "our culture".

I'm just mirroring the mayor's words that came right after a mass assault to "advise" other people. If it's fair for her to make such comments after the assault of those women, it's fair for me to say she should have stayed away from the attacker and warn other people not to repeat her mistake.

You are not mirroring the mayor's words. Please find me the quote where she tells the victims of what they should have done.

 

[FearGod]

We have a rule on this very forum that criticizing members' ideas and beliefs is fair game while criticizing or attacking the members themselves isn't. The former doesn't equal the latter. If it did, we would be insulting everyone we disagreed with by the sheer virtue of disagreeing with them.

I don't agree with you,do you know really the rules?!

Commenting on ethics of a group is kind of insulting, like saying the morals of the west is filthy,
the Jews have bad and criminal attitudes, how the Middle eastern people described as a backward
desert people make any difference.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If I say: you are stupid, you may say I have insulted you. But I may say I was not insulting you I was insulting thinking capacity. And I could use a similar line about practically any insult you could conceive. This is why I said we are nothing without our properties. People's cultures and beliefs are something they consider an integral part of themselves. It is hard to speak of it as dismissively as you have without in effect insulting the people who identify themselves with that culture. And please do not say "I also identify myself with that culture and I don't feel insulted" because you clearly don't. You have repeatedly called the culture a middle-eastern, and desert culture. Very rarely if ever have you referred to it as "our culture".

So when you say that a person's opinion is ridiculous, you believe you are calling the person ridiculous? I know I'm not. I would be disrespecting and getting in trouble with people I know all the time if I were.

You are not mirroring the mayor's words. Please find me the quote where she tells the victims of what they should have done.

Why mention a "code of conduct" after an assault if you believe the victims acted properly according to you?

 

[Thanda]

So when you say that a person's opinion is ridiculous, you believe you are calling the person ridiculous? I know I'm not. I would be disrespecting and getting in trouble with people I know all the time if I were.

My point is, it is a fine line. The difference between insulting someone and insulting something about them is deceptively small.

Why mention a "code of conduct" after an assault if you believe the victims acted properly according to you?

A pointless question since this code of conduct was not for just any situation. It was specifically for an upcoming event. That event was going to be a carnival if I'm not mistaken. That code of conduct was drawn up specifically for that carnival and not for general use by all and sundry. Therefore there is no assumption (or at least an assumption can't be proved from her words) that the same code of conduct would have been effective if applied by the ladies who were assaulted.

And this is what both you and Mystic keep missing. She was not addressing the victims or commenting on their situation. It has already been explained in this thread that she was asked about the safety and security situation of the upcoming carnival in light of the recent attacks. She articulated what she thought would help people attending that carnival keep safe.

My question still stands btw, where did the mayor tell the victims what they should have done?

 

[Debater Slayer]

My point is, it is a fine line. The difference between insulting someone and insulting something about them is deceptively small.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I sure as all hell am not going to sugarcoat my opinion of a sexist, homophobic, religiously bigoted culture just because someone might misinterpret my opinion as insulting Middle Eastern people.

A pointless question since this was not the code of conduct was not for just any situation. It was specifically for an upcoming event. That event was going to be a carnival if I'm not mistaken. That code of conduct was drawn up specifically for that carnival and not for general use by all and sundry. Therefore there is no assumption (or at least an assumption can't be proved from her words) that the same code of conduct would have been effective if applied by the ladies who were assaulted.

And this is what both you and Mystic keep missing. She was not addressing the victims or commenting on their situation. It has already been explained in this thread that she was asked about the safety and security situation of the upcoming carnival in light of the recent attacks. She articulated what she thought would help people attending that carnival keep safe.

My question still stands btw, where did the mayor tell the victims what they should have done?

She apparently ignored or forgot the fact that "staying away from strangers" was useless to prevent the mass assault. Saying that staying away from strangers should help is essentially saying that it would have prevented said assault from happening.

 

[FearGod]

Um... I'm an admin, so yes?

Yes, infallible

I didn't say "backward desert people"; I said "backward desert values/culture." I'm sure you believe that premarital sex is immoral. Does that mean you are insulting everyone who has it? If you say yes, then you are implying that all disagreements with others' actions are insulting. I think that's an untenable position.

How a culture is different than the people holding it?
Is it allowed to say the western culture is a filthy one?how that isn't insulting to the western people?!

 

[Debater Slayer]

How a culture is different than the people holding it?
Is it allowed to say the western culture is a filthy one?how that isn't insulting to the western people?!

A culture is a group of beliefs, practices, traditions, and norms. It is not a group of people. You can say that Western culture is immoral (in your opinion), for example, but you can't say that Western people are. You can even call a country things like "cesspool" and "hellhole," but you can't insult its people or call them names. There is a difference between the two.

 

[FearGod]

A culture is a group of beliefs, practices, traditions, and norms. It is not a group of people. You can say that Western culture is immoral (in your opinion), for example, but you can't say that Western people are. You can even call countries things like "cesspool" and "hellhole," but you can't insult its people or call them names. There is a difference between the two.

Can i say the western culture is barbaric without mentioning "in my opinion"?

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't disagree, but I find it unreasonable that someone would accuse me of insulting Middle Eastern people when my family, my friends, and I are Middle Eastern. I think it is both unreasonable and even potentially dangerous to confuse criticism of certain cultural values with insulting people.

I find much of your criticism of the middle east & Egypt to be cromulent.
I'm pretty harsh towards my own country too, even though I like the people.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Can i say the western culture is barbaric without mentioning "in my opinion"?

If you would like to discuss the rules in detail, you would need to start a thread in Site Feedback. We don't discuss moderation on public forums.

 

[Revoltingest]

Can i say the western culture is barbaric without mentioning "in my opinion"?

You're pretty safe in saying we're "somewhat barbaric" without adding the "in my opinion".
(There'd be pretty wide agreement on that.)

 

[FearGod]

You're pretty safe in saying we're "somewhat barbaric" without adding the "in my opinion".
(There'd be pretty wide agreement on that.)

No, i won't say that, my ethics prevent me of doing so.
I won't use the broad brush,never.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, i won't say that, my ethics prevent me of doing so.
I won't use the broad brush,never.

For me to say we're somewhat barbaric is perhaps more acceptable, since I include myself.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes, infallible

I just noticed this jab.

No, not infallible, but it means that I do know the rules. That was my answer to your question.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You're pretty safe in saying we're "somewhat barbaric" without adding the "in my opinion".
(There'd be pretty wide agreement on that.)

Actually, it would not be okay to say that Western or Middle Eastern people are barbaric. Calling the cultures barbaric without involving people is a different thing.