Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[Debater Slayer]

What did she say, & why is it so wrong?

From the article:

In order "to prevent such incidents from ever happening again," Reker proposed that women adhere to a "code of conduct," the Independent reported on Tuesday.

This code would require women to remain "an arm's length distance from strangers" within their own group, and encourages women to ask bystanders or witnesses to help should they feel threatened, according to the same report. In the future, women would do well to be aware of the potential dangers of events conducive to drunkenness, the mayor reportedly added.

Do I even need to explain what is wrong with that?

How is it your place to tell one woman what she is allowed to say to other women?

I didn't mention anything about being "allowed"; she can say what she wants, but I also have every right to criticize her for it.

This is also like asking what's wrong with telling Ann Coulter that she shouldn't say that women shouldn't have the right to vote. There are women who say sexist things about other women. Their gender doesn't exempt them from criticism for doing so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The not reporting is obviously means the police can do nothing. The not being arrested has a lot to do with the lack of evidence that usually characterizes rape - as well as other crimes: if someone robs me of my phone in a dark alley and sells it I will have a very hard time getting them arrested as there will be no evidence other than my own word.

It still means there is a huge one-sidedness when it comes to telling victims how to not be victims, and placing responsibility on them, and saying nothing about what attackers should do to not attack - it still means that "he" (your word, not mine) is usually not arrested, usually not prosecuted, and usually not put away in jail or prison.
You are also ignoring the fact that most of the time rape involves a victim who is attacked by a family member, a friend, or another acquaintance, adding a level of difficulty in pressing charges.

 

[Sunstone]

Many of the refugees (up to 20% according to some statistics) adhere to an ideology that is either that of ISIS or very close to that of ISIS. These people consider themselves invaders in the name of Islam. Non-Muslim women are liable to be taken as sex slaves.

Sources?

 

[Revoltingest]

Usually, however, when someone is trying to tell women how to be safe, they are placing sole responsibility at the hands of the victims, and totally displacing it from the attacker, who is never told to ignore their urges to attack, or how to take their minds off of their urge to attack,.....

This is rather prejudicial towards anyone giving advice.
To make a sweeping claim about hidden nefarious motives is simply wrong.

Consider that advising victims is common in all crimes, eg, robbery, embezzlement, fraud.
The reason people don't advise thieves to not steal is that these perps are bent upon stealing.
But victims of theft can benefit from learning preventive measures.
I've been there & done that....advising friends who have suffered loss due to theft & assault.
And they've done the same for me.
We can all learn from adversity, without being at fault (ie, blamed) for our victimization.

But authorities are now advising potential rapists (ie, men) to not rape, particularly at universities
where the crime is more likely to be of a sexual nature, with consent being an issue.
Example....
https://well.wvu.edu/articles/tips_for_preventing_sexual_assault
http://www.brown.edu/Student_Servic..._assault_&_dating_violence/advice_for_men.php

 

[Thanda]

It still means there is a huge one-sidedness when it comes to telling victims how to not be victims, and placing responsibility on them, and saying nothing about what attackers should do to not attack - it still means that "he" (your word, not mine) is usually not arrested, usually not prosecuted, and usually not put away in jail or prison.
You are also ignoring the fact that most of the time rape involves a victim who is attacked by a family member, a friend, or another acquaintance, adding a level of difficulty in pressing charges.

Again, not much police can do about that. All I'm saying is police are not going to spend their time telling rapists how to avoid raping - instead, when they do they will try to catch them and send them to prison.

Besides this there are obviously lots of campaign going around about violence against women - and I am willing to bet there are more messages from authorities about how wrong rape is than there is about how women should avoid it. And yet, every once in a while when the advice is given - it is victim blaming.

 

[Revoltingest]

From the article:
Do I even need to explain what is wrong with that?

The problem I see with the extracted text is that quoted portions are interspersed with unquoted text.
How much of it is from the mayor, & how much is inference & paraphrasing by the rather prejudicial author?

I didn't mention anything about being "allowed"; she can say what she wants, but I also have every right to criticize her for it.

Such severe criticism without knowing her motives, & yet attributing wrongful ones, would certainly have a chilling effect.

This is also like asking what's wrong with telling Ann Coulter that she shouldn't say that women shouldn't have the right to vote. There are women who say sexist things about other women. Their gender doesn't exempt them from criticism for doing so.

You haven't yet made anything other than a hypothetical argument that the mayor could be sexist.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The problem I see with the extracted text is that quoted portions are interspersed with unquoted text.
How much of it is from the mayor, & how much is inference & paraphrasing by the rather prejudicial author?

The mayor's statements are detailed here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nduct-to-prevent-future-assault-a6798186.html

I'm going by what is mentioned in the above article.

Such severe criticism without knowing her motives, & yet attributing wrongful ones, would certainly have a chilling effect.

Not more chilling than the "advice" given to victims of sexual assault.

You haven't yet made anything other than a hypothetical argument that the mayor could be sexist.

Well, I'm going by her own proposals. If that's not enough to determine whether or not her words are sexist, I don't know what is.

 

[Revoltingest]

The mayor's statements are detailed here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nduct-to-prevent-future-assault-a6798186.html
I'm going by what is mentioned in the above article.

This is a better source.
Certainly, her timing is impolitic.
But her suggestion has merit, given how increasingly dangerous public areas in Germany are.
It appears that men aren't suffering this increase in crime, but they'd benefit from advice on
avoiding assault too.

Well, I'm going by her own proposals. If that's not enough to determine whether or not her words are sexist, I don't know what is.

In this particular case, I'm inclined to cut more slack when an assault survivor speaks to others of the same gender.
They'd have much in common. And without evidence to the contrary, she deserves credibility for trying to help.

 

[4consideration]

I think this is a link to the press conference, but I don't understand enough German to interpret it.

I'm posting it here in case someone who does understand German may be able to tell us:

1. if this woman made the statements being discussed any sort of main focus for her response to the situation,

2. if Ms. Reker avoided talking about the perpetrators,

3. if she did, actually, create an impression that the women involved were in any way at fault for what occurred.

(My opinion is that based upon the events thus far reported, I see no justification for holding these women at fault in any way, shape, or form, for being assaulted. At the same time, I don't interpret the mayor's words as "blaming" the victims. I have seen nothing yet that I think would justify an attack on this mayor, if she is simply pointing out ways women may help avoid such a thing -- especially given there have been several locations that have experienced this, it appears to be organized, and the government seems to have been caught off-guard -- and needs to get a handle on it, and stop it.)

It is very easy to take a few of a person's sentences and present them as if that is the main focus of what the person said. I have a hunch that may be happening here. If any of our German-speaking members would care to interpret it for us and see if that is the case, I would very much appreciate it.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think this is a link to the press conference, but I don't understand enough German to interpret it.
I'm posting it here in case someone who does understand German may be able to tell us:
1. if this woman made the statements being discussed any sort of main focus for her response to the situation,
2. if Ms. Reker avoided talking about the perpetrators,
3. if she did, actually, create an impression that the women involved were in any way at fault for what occurred.
(My opinion is that based upon the events thus far reported, I see no justification for holding these women at fault in any way, shape, or form, for being assaulted. At the same time, I don't interpret the mayor's words as "blaming" the victims. I have seen nothing yet that I think would justify an attack on this mayor, if she is simply pointing out ways women may help avoid such a thing -- especially given there have been several locations that have experienced this, it appears to be organized, and the government seems to have been caught off-guard -- and needs to get a handle on it, and stop it.)
It is very easy to take a few of a person's sentences and present them as if that is the main focus of what the person said. I have a hunch that may be happening here. If any of our German-speaking members would care to interpret it for us and see if that is the case, I would very much appreciate it.

I'll add that in addition to a language barrier, & incomplete coverage by news sources, there's a cultural difference between Germany & Americastan.
I once worked for a German company (Knorr Bremse), & was struck by how they have codes/manuals for everything. They love regulation. So to me, a code of conduct for women looks very strange, it might be more acceptable there.
Btw, I liked working with Germans, but not for them.

 

[4consideration]

Something just occurred to me, and I don't know if it's a terrible idea, or maybe a good one.

I was just thinking about what might be expected to happen if Germany decided to erect billboards, or advertise in some way, something like this:

"People that sexually assault others are probably pretty bad at sex, or else they would have repeat requests for it, and wouldn't have to try to force it on someone else. If you sexually assault someone, you are telling the world you can't get it from someone willingly. That's sad."

 

[Sunstone]

Something just occurred to me, and I don't know if it's a terrible idea, or maybe a good one.

I was just thinking about what might be expected to happen if Germany decided to erect billboards, or advertise in some way, something like this:

"People that sexually assault others are probably pretty bad at sex, or else they would have repeat requests for it, and wouldn't have to try to force it on someone else. If you sexually assault someone, you are telling the world you can't get it from someone willingly. That's sad."

I don't know if rapists pay that much attention to the truth about themselves, but I like your idea anyway.

 

[Revoltingest]

Something just occurred to me, and I don't know if it's a terrible idea, or maybe a good one.
I was just thinking about what might be expected to happen if Germany decided to erect billboards, or advertise in some way, something like this:
"People that sexually assault others are probably pretty bad at sex, or else they would have repeat requests for it, and wouldn't have to try to force it on someone else. If you sexually assault someone, you are telling the world you can't get it from someone willingly. That's sad."

I doubt that people who commit such crimes would see it as anything other than another lame PSA.
It seems that some people living in Germany have different values regarding women in public.
Severe prosecution & punishment of the perps would send a corrective message.

 

[4consideration]

I doubt that people who commit such crimes see it as anything other than another lame PSA.
It seems that some people living in Germany have different values regarding women in public.
Severe prosecution & punishment of the perps would send a corrective message.

I didn't mean for that to be done in lieu of prosecution and punishment.

Both can occur.

 

[Flankerl]

This is a better source.
Certainly, her timing is impolitic.
But her suggestion has merit, given how increasingly dangerous public areas in Germany are.
It appears that men aren't suffering this increase in crime, but they'd benefit from advice on
avoiding assault too.

Actually men suffer the same.
The difference is that women get sexually assaulted or raped while men end up in hospital.

And her suggestion has no merit. Her suggestion is for Carnival next month. Just Google Cologne Carnival and look at some Videos, Pictures and think about the advise of an arms length distance again.(Americans might also realise that personal space is different in Germanic Countries)
And before actual Carnival is Weiberfastnacht which doesn't even have an English Wiki article but is apparently somewhat known as Fat Thursday. Its an essential female holiday in the Rhineland, aka in Cologne.
The entire idea of Weiberfastnacht is to have a fun girls day without a male escort which couldn't help either way.

I think this is a link to the press conference, but I don't understand enough German to interpret it.

I'm posting it here in case someone who does understand German may be able to tell us

I am not really sure if I want to watch a 41 minutes long video and then translate it or parts of it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Apparently women in Cologne are now being advised to follow a "code of conduct":

http://news.yahoo.com/mayor-cologne-just-blamed-hundreds-011347213.html

Anyone want to defend the mayor's statement?

The problem here for the defenders or apologists for Reker is not just about rape prevention, because for heavens sake women are already given multitudes of how-not-to-get-raped advice throughout most of our lives.

The problem is furthering or extending even more behavior modification after surviving a brutal assault that is a slap in the face. It's conflating culpability to a level not seen with other crimes.

Our family was burglarized after an ice storm cut our power. Multiple homes were hit. The local law enforcement investigating NEVER ONCE told us how to prevent it from happening again NOR did they ask us how we allowed it to happen in the first place. People also didn't spread blasé and vapid statements about how people should be more hyper aware of burglars after an ice storm, and that they're just trying to help other people by saying such.

I have family members who are male and were molested as teen boys...they don't hear this "advice" for rape prevention.

And yet as a survivor of rape, I still gotta hear this kind of bull****.

The cognitive dissonance about violent crimes discussing rape is still appalling yet unsurprising. It's a slap in the face to me, but what do apologists really care? They care more about being singled out by survivors like me and don't want to look bad or uncaring, but give less than two ****s about the actual survivors ourselves when I say that this so-called "advice" ACTUALLY HURTS.

 

[prometheus11]

I have no idea if it's victim blaming. Can someone post the exact sentence(s) that demonstrate the victim blaming?

If she was trying to prevent future crimes and women from from BECOMING victims, it can't be victim blaming, even if the comments were insensitive or inappropriate.

 

[4consideration]

I am not really sure if I want to watch a 41 minutes long video and then translate it or parts of it.

That's understandable. I wasn't actually meaning for anyone to translate the whole thing verbatim. I was really just looking to see if anyone could address the points I listed -- so we could see if the woman was being insensitive, victim blaming, etc...and whether or not the article was an honest reflection of what was said by her.

 

[Crypto2015]

Sources?

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...efugees-isis-sympathizers-13-percent-support/

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't mean for that to be done in lieu of prosecution and punishment.
Both can occur.

Oh, I know.
German authorities have been saying they plan vigorous actions against the perps.
(One wouldn't know that based upon the yahoo article.)