Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[Flankerl]

*taps mic*

Is this thing on...?

Quite honestly was more talking about German 3rd wave feminists.

 

[Debater Slayer]

In other news, today....giving bad advice to citizens is now equivalent to "victim blaming."

Now over to John for the weather, where he's going to mock you for not carrying your umbrella yesterday by not talking about umbrellas at all but instead describing a storm system coming in this weekend.

This is a false analogy. Rain doesn't fall as a result of someone's malicious intent and deliberation. If there were a spiteful person responsible for pouring rain all over people's heads, your analogy might make sense. As it stands, it merely amounts to sugarcoating sexism.

 

[prometheus11]

This is a false analogy. Rain doesn't fall as a result of someone's malicious intent and deliberation. If there were a spiteful person responsible for pouring rain all over people's heads, your analogy might make sense. As it stands, it merely amounts to sugarcoating sexism.

The issue isn't sexism, and my comment wasn't about sexism. Supposedly, this thread is about victim blaming, which didn't occur since she wasn't talking about what the victims should have done. The weatherman can't be describing the future (this weekend's storm) as a way to say something pejorative about a decision made by someone yesterday.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The issue isn't sexism, and my comment wasn't about sexism. Supposedly, this thread is about victim blaming, which didn't occur since she wasn't talking about what the victims should have done. The weatherman can't be describing the future (this weekend's storm) as a way to say something pejorative about a decision made by someone yesterday.

Have you read all of the posts in this thread? Her comments make it seem like the victims didn't do what she thinks they were supposed to do to avoid getting assaulted... as if "keeping an arm's distance" from the perpetrators would have helped--completely ignoring the fact that the perpetrators were the ones who got close to the victims, not the opposite.

 

[Debater Slayer]

On a related note, if it turns out that the assaults were committed by "refugees" and the mayor said this... oh man... that would give a whole new meaning to "servile political correctness."

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Remember, kids...when giving rape prevention advice, rape survivors aren't deaf to that horse manure.

Consider telling people how to avoid having a stroke by suggesting to everybody they should eat food and to inhale and exhale throughout the day if they want to prevent a future stroke. I'm a stroke survivor, too, and advice like that is unhelpful,condescending, and takes no account what survivors experience and what we need in recovery and in fixing the problem.

Thank goodness people don't do that to stroke survivors.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Remember, kids...when giving rape prevention advice, rape survivors aren't deaf to that horse manure.

Consider telling people how to avoid having a stroke by suggesting to everybody they should eat food and to inhale and exhale throughout the day if they want to prevent a future stroke. I'm a stroke survivor, too, and advice like that is unhelpful,condescending, and takes no account what survivors experience and what we need in recovery and in fixing the problem.

Thank goodness people don't do that to stroke survivors.

Or telling clinically depressed people that they are depressed because they are "far from God" or because they need to "lighten up."

Same venomous, ignorant garbage with different names.

 

[Crypto2015]

This sort of political correctness is just another sort of racism. The mayor of Cologne said that Germans must strive "explain to people of other cultures that the coming carnival has nothing to do with sexual promiscuity", as if these Middle Eastern men were retarded subhumans who have no idea of what is right and what is wrong. Of course that they know that sexually assaulting women is wrong. The condescension of the liberal is one of the worst sorts of racism.

 

[prometheus11]

Have you read all of the posts in this thread? Her comments make it seem like the victims didn't do what she thinks they were supposed to do to avoid getting assaulted... as if "keeping an arm's distance" from the perpetrators would have helped--completely ignoring the fact that the perpetrators were the ones who got close to the victims, not the opposite.

I don't buy that. She wasn't talking about what the victims SHOULD HAVE done. She's warming others for the future. If the assailants were attacking people with blonde hair, she would address those CITIZENS with blonde hair.

She wasn't addressing the victims. She was SPECIFICALLY addressing all non victims.

I'm not addressing the rationality of her warning. Perhaps it is horribly sexist and she should be crucified for it.

 

[Thanda]

@4consideration


"Na ja es ist immer eine Möglichkeit eine gewisse Distanz zu halten, die länger als eine Armlänge betrifft. Also von sich aus schon keine große Nähe zu suchen zu Menschen die einem Fremd sind zu denen man kein großes Vertrauensverhältnis hat.
Aber es gibt viele andere Möglichkeiten, sich in Gruppen zusammen zu finden, sich nicht trennen zu lassen, auch nicht in Feierlaune zu sagen "Ich gehe mal mit diesen oder jenen mit", sondern in der Gruppe in der man losgegangen ist zu bleiben."

"Well there is always the possibility to hold a general distance, which is longer than one arms length. To not seek a greater closeness with people you don't know, with whom you don't have a relationship of trust.
But there are many other possibilities(to be safe), to be in a group of people(you know), not to be seperated from each other, not even in a celebratory mood to say "I am going to accompany these or these people", but to stay within the group with the people you know."

More or less it says that.

The thing is that this wouldn't have helped that night.
- the victims weren't seeking closeness to the perpetrators, the perpetrators did
- the victims weren't leaving their groups, the groups of the perpetrators were just vastly bigger

And I saw the Videos from that night in Cologne, all you hear is French and Arabic interchangeably and black haired darker skinned men. Which is probably just a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge coincidence.

I think you're making an assumption that her advice was to the victims of the crime. But you previously told us that she is actually trying to give advice for an upcoming activity in which there will be a large group of people.

If so her advice seems to be perfectly appropriate to me. If you're going to a big party where there will be a lot of people, stick with the people you know. Don't go to groups you don't know even if they look like a lot of fun. I'm really not sure what's wrong with her advice.

 

[Scott C.]

Apparently women in Cologne are now being advised to follow a "code of conduct":

http://news.yahoo.com/mayor-cologne-just-blamed-hundreds-011347213.html

Anyone want to defend the mayor's statement?

I would need to interrogate the mayor a bit before I could understand his intentions. However, I see no problem with city officials offering suggestions on how to stay safe. What follows are generalizations which may not apply specifically to this situation.

Suppose I like to wear blue shirts. Suppose there's a gang in a certain area that likes to attack people in blue shirts. I ignore the advise and take a stroll through the neighborhood. I'm assaulted and the blue shirt contributed to the motivation. After the fact, the police condemn the assailants but also ask why I was dumb enough to ignore the advise and put myself at risk. That would be a fair question and I would expect the police to point out the danger to the public.

Like it or not, good men and bad men notice hot women and even more so when they show a lot of skin. Does that mean that a hot woman with little clothing is more likely to be assaulted? I would think so, although that's a sad commentary. A woman would be foolish to walk through a rough neighborhood dressed that way. That doesn't make an assault "her fault", but it does mean that she should have taken more precaution. Obviously the condemnation must be focused at the perpetrators, but a caution should also be given to those who are at risk.

The problem lies in that a woman may interpret such a caution as "you're a whore and were asking for it." If that is the intention of the caution, that is a reprehensible attitude. However, if it's a realistic assessment of cause and effect, the caution is warranted and should be followed.

 

[Thanda]

Remember, kids...when giving rape prevention advice, rape survivors aren't deaf to that horse manure.

Consider telling people how to avoid having a stroke by suggesting to everybody they should eat food and to inhale and exhale throughout the day if they want to prevent a future stroke. I'm a stroke survivor, too, and advice like that is unhelpful,condescending, and takes no account what survivors experience and what we need in recovery and in fixing the problem.

Thank goodness people don't do that to stroke survivors.

Are you now seriously telling me that no advice shout be given to people to help reduce their chances of a stroke? Now I've heard it all!

 

[Thanda]

I would need to interrogate the mayor a bit before I could understand his intentions. However, I see no problem with city officials offering suggestions on how to stay safe. What follows are generalizations which may not apply specifically to this situation.

Suppose I like to wear blue shirts. Suppose there's a gang in a certain area that likes to attack people in blue shirts. I ignore the advise and take a stroll through the neighborhood. I'm assaulted and the blue shirt contributed to the motivation. After the fact, the police condemn the assailants but also ask why I was dumb enough to ignore the advise and put myself at risk. That would be a fair question and I would expect the police to point out the danger to the public.

Like it or not, good men and bad men notice hot women and even more so when they show a lot of skin. Does that mean that a hot woman with little clothing is more likely to be assaulted? I would think so, although that's a sad commentary. A woman would be foolish to walk through a rough neighborhood dressed that way. That doesn't make an assault "her fault", but it does mean that she should have taken more precaution. Obviously the condemnation must be focused at the perpetrators, but a caution should also be given to those who are at risk.

The problem lies in that a woman may interpret such a caution as "you're a whore and were asking for it." If that is the intention of the caution, that is a reprehensible attitude. However, if it's a realistic assessment of cause and effect, the caution is warranted and should be followed.

I agree. Although I wouldn't say the clothing plays so much of a role. Generally rapes are opportunistic crimes. It isn't usually well planned by the criminal that: "That girl always wears short stuff, I'm going to rape her". I think it is more of a case where if they see a young woman in a vulnerable situation, they will take advantage.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think you're making an assumption that her advice was to the victims of the crime. But you previously told us that she is actually trying to give advice for an upcoming activity in which there will be a large group of people.

If so her advice seems to be perfectly appropriate to me. If you're going to a big party where there will be a lot of people, stick with the people you know. Don't go to groups you don't know even if they look like a lot of fun. I'm really not sure what's wrong with her advice.

I suspect that the mayor spends little time discussing such things on internet forums.
If she had, she'd know that there are times when crime victims don't want advice.
That should be handled separately.....& by offering better quality advice.
I see clumsiness, but no evidence of sexism.

 

[prometheus11]

Are you now seriously telling me that no advice shout be given to people to help reduce their chances of a stroke? Now I've heard it all!

Yes. It'd be stroke-victim-blaming. /sarcasm.

 

[prometheus11]

I suspect that the mayor spends little time discussing such things on internet forums.
If she had, she'd know that there are times when crime victims don't want advice.
That should be handled separately.....& by offering better quality advice.
I see clumsiness, but no evidence of sexism.

I don't see where she gave any advice to victims, though, just to citizens that had NOT been victims that evening.

 

[Thanda]

I suspect that the mayor spends little time discussing such things on internet forums.
If she had, she'd know that there are times when crime victims don't want advice.
That should be handled separately.....& by offering better quality advice.
I see clumsiness, but no evidence of sexism.

But again lets make sure we understand, she wasn't advising the victims of the rape. And also, it appears she was responding to a question that was asked. What was she asked?

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't see where she gave any advice to victims, though, just to citizens that had NOT been victims that evening.

But the victims also hear it, & they're prone to taking it personally (as we're told).
They confuse what they feel (blame, with what is intended (avoiding assault).
Here's the thorny problem.
Crimes happen.
Victims' concerns & reactions should be taken into account.
But authorities will want to take preventive measures, which includes....
- Identifying the risk...in this case, young foreign males
- Advising the populace on avoiding assault.
- Pursuing the perps.
- Avoid appearing bigoted towards a protected group.
Some of these are a bit mutually exclusive.
Handle it imperfectly, & they're either racist, misogynistic, lax, or ineffective.

 

[Revoltingest]

But again lets make sure we understand, she wasn't advising the victims of the rape. And also, it appears she was responding to a question that was asked. What was she asked?

I don't know.
But it appears that she had already initiated this behavioral code.

 

[prometheus11]

But the victims also hear it, & they're prone to taking it personally (as we're told).
They confuse what they feel (blame, with what is intended (avoiding assault).

That's irrelevant, IMO. She was speaking SPECIFICALLY to people who were not victims. People will misinterpret the word "potato," but that's not the fault of the tv chef.