Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[prometheus11]

Your post really offends me!
I can barely contain my ready to boil over anger!
<chair thrown thru window>
<caviar can thrown thru 180" TV>
And now I have this sharp pain in my.....

== MODERATOR NOTICE ==
We just had to cut this guy off.
We're sure you were tired of it too.

I don't understand this post and I though we weren't supposed to mention "you know who" in threads.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes I am. Women are not the only victims of injustices. Making an assumption that men don't suffer questions about their behaviour when they are victims simply because "you don't hear men complain about the same kind of treatment nearly so often as women" is merely confirmation bias. What makes you think there should be a relationship between how often something happens and how often people complain about it. That would be like a policeman saying -"Ah, well there aren't that many rapes because we don't get many reports about them". There may be other reasons why people are not reporting, complaining or you not hearing them complain - and that reason may not be because they are not happening.

I don't doubt that sexual assault on men is most likely under-reported due to a combination of societal pressure and sexist culture, but I think that the cases of sexual assault on men are definitely fewer than those of sexual assault on women.

I can cite my own experience: most women where I live, including close family, have experienced sexual harassment at one point or another during their lives. Furthermore, a lot of them were told to dress or act differently to prevent sexual harassment. On the other hand, none of the men I know have ever told me that they have experienced sexual harassment. Most of them have no reason to fear telling me, so I take it that they haven't had that experience, just like I haven't, thankfully.

It seems to me that it takes an exceptional amount of oversight to claim that women and men experience sexual assault and harassment equally often.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't understand this post and I though we weren't supposed to mention "you know who" in threads.

Sorry.....I was just in complaining mode.
It's my time of the week.
Men...such complainers!

 

[Debater Slayer]

Perhaps. I believe a more thorough investigation of her views would show she is not nearly so sexist, insensitive, nor ignorant, and that she was trying her best to stop "truck drivers" from having their "tools robbed" until they catch the perps.

Your accusations of idiocy and "rape apologetics" seems shrill and needlessly melodramatic.

Regardless, she didn't blame any victims. That much is clear.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, then. My opinion of her statements still stands.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't understand this post and I though we weren't supposed to mention "you know who" in threads.

Voldemort?

 

[Revoltingest]

Your accusations of idiocy and "rape apologetics" seems shrill and needlessly melodramatic.

I'll note that the aggressive & prejudicial wielding of such labels is quite polarizing.
It has the net effect of negating someone's humanity.
The call this "erasure", don't they?

 

[Thanda]

I don't doubt that sexual assault on men is most likely under-reported due to a combination of societal pressure and sexist culture, but I think that the cases of sexual assault on men are definitely fewer than those of sexual assault on women.

I can cite my own experience: most women where I live, including close family, have experienced sexual harassment at one point or another during their lives. Furthermore, a lot of them were told to dress or act differently to prevent sexual harassment. On the other hand, none of the men I know have ever told me that they have experienced sexual harassment. Most of them have no reason to fear telling me, so I take it that they haven't had that experience, just like I haven't, thankfully.

It seems to me that it takes an exceptional amount of oversight to claim that women and men experience sexual assault and harassment equally often.

I don't claim that they do (experience sexual assualt at the same rate as women). But then again there is also a programming issue. Men are taught that they cannot be sexually assaulted. If a women approaches them, or touches them, they must consider themselves lucky. Note a case (or two?) which I read about last year where a teacher slept with a teen boy. The comments were all about how lucky he was - and yet there would have been outrage at the teacher taking advantage of a young girl had the sexes been reversed.

So it is possible that some men who are sexually harassed don't find it something they are allowed to complain about because of societal expectations that men can never tire of enough sex and invitations for sex.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'll note that the aggressive & prejudicial wielding of such labels is quite polarizing.
It has the net effect of negating someone's humanity.
The call this "erasure", don't they?

If you equate calling a spade a spade--even if doing so is considered politically incorrect by some people--to erasire, then we are not just in disagreement; we don't even share a square inch of ground anymore.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you equate calling a spade a spade--even if doing so is considered politically incorrect by some people--to erasire, then we are not just in disagreement; we don't even share an inch of ground anymore.

Some will excuse prejudgement by saying they're calling a spade a spade, trumpeting the flouting of political incorrectness.
But candor & righteous indignation don't make it right.
One can express one's views by fulminating at others, or one can address what happened, ie, what the mayor said & its consequences.
The latter is more productive.

No one has made an objective case the the mayor is sexist or not.
Certainly, no one has done so for the accusation of victim blaming.
Have any of the victims commented upon her advice?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Some will excuse prejudgement by saying they're calling a spade a spade, trumpeting the flouting of political incorrectness.
But candor & righteous indignation don't make it right.
One can express one's views by fulminating at others, or one can address what happened, ie, what the mayor said & its consequences.
The latter is more productive.

No one has made an objective case the the mayor is sexist or not.
Certainly, no one has done so for the accusation of victim blaming.
Have any of the victims commented upon her advice?

We can't read people's minds. That's why we go by what they say and do. It's pretty simple.

 

[prometheus11]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, then. My opinion of her statements still stands.

I'm sure. Are you willing to research her previous statements and overall stance on sexism and tendency to "blame victims" and similar behavior?

I think your accusations are shrill because they're extremely judgmental, and it appears as though you are judging her entire being on the basis of just a few sentences...and not "unequivocally evil" statements, but statements about which there is much disagreement and debate as to her intent and motivation. Do you often so harshly judge to such extremes based on a few debatable sentences?

 

[Revoltingest]

We can't read people's minds.

But since she didn't blame them, I can only presume that you're doing just that.

That's why we go by what they say and do. There really isn't much to understand there.

I'd say there's more yet to understand.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm sure. Are you willing to research her previous statements and overall stance on sexism and tendency to "blame victims" and similar behavior?

I think your accusations are shrill because they're extremely judgmental, and it appears as though you are judging her entire being on the basis of just a few sentences...and not "unequivocally evil" statements, but statements about which there is much disagreement and debate as to her intent and motivation. Do you often so harshly judge to such extremes based on a few debatable sentences?

I'm judging her words as I believe I have every right to. She could be a saint for all I care; that wouldn't change her words.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But since she didn't blame them, I can only presume that you're doing just that.

Words have implications, as I'm sure you know. Sometimes people aren't fully aware, if at all, of what their comments entail. That doesn't change the words or the implications.

 

[prometheus11]

I'm judging her words as I believe I have every right to. She could be a saint for all I care; that wouldn't change her words.

No. You're emphatically stating that she's NOT a "Saint."

Someone's ENTIRE character, on just a few words, that are debatable.

Are you going to research her views and policies to determine if your judgment of her is warranted?

 

[icehorse]

And I thought we're all agreed yahoo, is not a reliable source for news.

The source shouldn't matter: either the mayor called for women to follow a "code of conduct" or she didn't.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No. You're emphatically stating that she's NOT a "Saint."

Someone's ENTIRE character, on just a few words, that are debatable.

Are you going to research her views and policies to determine if your judgment of her is warranted?

I'm not judging her; I'm judging her comments. As far as that goes, I think her comments are clear enough for me to form a solid judgment of them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Words have implications, as I'm sure you know. Sometimes people aren't fully aware, if at all, of what their comments entail. That doesn't change the words or the implications.

Some inferences are cromulent.
Others are prejudicial, based upon faulty awareness.
We each judge.

 

[Thanda]

The source shouldn't matter: either the mayor called for women to follow a "code of conduct" or she didn't.

And if she did call for a code of conduct? Modern societies are full of codes of conducts for all kinds of people - it's called culture

 

[icehorse]

Prometheus11 posed:

City mayor:

Currently, there's a group of thugs robbing truck drivers. They look for pick ups with open beds and unlocked service vehicles, and they take all the tools. From sanders and drills to screw drivers and hammers to welders and cement mixers. We advise any truck drivers who carry tools to be careful and lock up your valuables until we can apprehend this gang.

Victim blaming?

I ask again.

I'd say your comparison is weak. What if instead the mayor said: "We advise truck drivers to either buy $20,000 safes for their tools OR not frequent construction sites." ?

Such advice would be more in keeping with the "advice" to keep an arm's length away from strangers while in the city. As has been pointed out, such advice is basically meaningless.