Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[prometheus11]

Gee, I bet you even believe, from your head all the way down to your toes, that you actually understood what Mystic was saying. But if I was inflicted with your lack of reading comprehension, I'd give up all hope and shoot myself.

Do you often bully others and suggest that they kill themselves? At this point, is be worried if we agreed.

 

[prometheus11]

Prometheus11 posed:





I'd say your comparison is weak. What if instead the mayor said: "We advise truck drivers to either buy $20,000 safes for their tools OR not frequent construction sites." ?

Such advice would be more in keeping with the "advice" to keep an arm's length away from strangers while in the city. As has been pointed out, such advice is basically meaningless.

I proved it wasn't victim blaming which was my intent.

 

[icehorse]

And if she did call for a code of conduct? Modern societies are full of codes of conducts for all kinds of people - it's called culture

Yes, and we need to make distinctions. In this case, a part of the mayor's "code of conduct" was - more or less - to "keep an arm's length away from strangers". This conduct is impossible to achieve in any big city. This is not a workable, fair suggestion.

 

[prometheus11]

Yes, and we need to make distinctions. In this case, a part of the mayor's "code of conduct" was - more or less - to "keep an arm's length away from strangers". This conduct is impossible to achieve in any big city. This is not a workable, fair suggestion.

Yes, she shouldn't have said that or clarified it. But she wasn't victim blaming.

 

[Thanda]

Yes, and we need to make distinctions. In this case, a part of the mayor's "code of conduct" was - more or less - to "keep an arm's length away from strangers". This conduct is impossible to achieve in any big city. This is not a workable, fair suggestion.

Perhaps you're right. So clearly she gave bad advice. But she is not guilty of victim blaming just because she gave advice.

 

[icehorse]

If we imagine a continuum on which advice can range from "bad" to "victim blaming", I'd say that advice that amounts to "in the future, do the impossible", is closer to the victim blaming end of the spectrum.

 

[Thanda]

If we imagine a continuum on which advice can range from "bad" to "victim blaming", I'd say that advice that amounts to "in the future, do the impossible", is closer to the victim blaming end of the spectrum.

I don't think so, she wasn't speaking to the victims.

 

[Revoltingest]

If we imagine a continuum on which advice can range from "bad" to "victim blaming", I'd say that advice that amounts to "in the future, do the impossible", is closer to the victim blaming end of the spectrum.

That isn't necessarily part of the Victim Blame Continuum.
I'd put in the <really bad> end of the Advice Quality Spectrum.

Wow!
I've really impressed myself with the geeky inanity of this irrelevant post.
And I'm not easily impressed.

 

[Koldo]

Apparently women in Cologne are now being advised to follow a "code of conduct":

http://news.yahoo.com/mayor-cologne-just-blamed-hundreds-011347213.html

Anyone want to defend the mayor's statement?

I see no victim blaming here.
Telling people to take preventive measures to reduce the odds they will become victims in the future doesn't, in any way, count as victim blaming.

 

[Sunstone]

Do you often bully others and suggest that they kill themselves? At this point, is be worried if we agreed.

Really? You really, honestly think I was telling you to kill yourself? If that's true, then your misunderstanding of my words is at least consistent with your misunderstanding of Mystic's words.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Are you now seriously telling me that no advice shout be given to people to help reduce their chances of a stroke? Now I've heard it all!

I'm seriously saying to listen to survivors and what we experience so that we can help lead the fight against future tragedies based on what has helped us and what hasn't helped us.

Estrogen caused my stroke. I stopped taking estrogen. Effective risk prevention of strokes occur when we study causal relationships between outside force against internal structures. So my risk - though low for a woman my age, and I don't smoke, exercise like a beast, and incorporate stress-relief strategies - still held up enough for me to be a statistic in spite of the fact I did everything right in regard to major risk factors.

There is an elevated risk for women who take estrogen, but still not a high risk. I just happened to be that rare person who had one.

So stroke prevention? The research shows promise of reduction of occurrence and re-occurrence. Based on science and careful study and going through the work with the survivors ourselves.

BAD and CONDESCENDING advice would be to tell people that to prevent a stroke one should eat food, and inhale and exhale, and if you do that right, you shouldn't get a stroke.

Like rape apologia, it's "advice" that is unwarranted, condescending, unrealistic, unhelpful, and leaves the survivors own words out of the entire field of inquiry.

I've even been told that as a rape survivor, literally, that my experience doesn't matter when we need to study what drove my attacker to attack me.

Nothing like that...nothing at all....was ever said to me surrounding my stroke and my recovery. Survivors should never be silenced nor shamed for what we have to offer in terms of our stories and our experience in recovery.

 

[Thanda]

I'm seriously saying to listen to survivors and what we experience so that we can help lead the fight against future tragedies based on what has helped us and what hasn't helped us.

Estrogen caused my stroke. I stopped taking estrogen. Effective risk prevention of strokes occur when we study causal relationships between outside force against internal structures. So my risk - though low for a woman my age, and I don't smoke, exercise like a beast, and incorporate stress-relief strategies - still held up enough for me to be a statistic in spite of the fact I did everything right in regard to major risk factors.

There is an elevated risk for women who take estrogen, but still not a high risk. I just happened to be that rare person who had one.

So stroke prevention? The research shows promise of reduction of occurrence and re-occurrence. Based on science and careful study and going through the work with the survivors ourselves.

BAD and CONDESCENDING advice would be to tell people that to prevent a stroke one should eat food, and inhale and exhale, and if you do that right, you shouldn't get a stroke.

Like rape apologia, it's "advice" that is unwarranted, condescending, unrealistic, unhelpful, and leaves the survivors own words out of the entire field of inquiry.

I've even been told that as a rape survivor, literally, that my experience doesn't matter when we need to study what drove my attacker to attack me.

Nothing like that...nothing at all....was ever said to me surrounding my stroke and my recovery. Survivors should never be silenced nor shamed for what we have to offer in terms of our stories and our experience in recovery.

So you're simply saying people shouldn't give bad, unresearched advice to victims? If that is what you are saying then I totally agree with you. But as I've asserted before, bad advice doesn't always amount to victim blaming.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So you're simply saying people shouldn't give bad, unresearched advice to victims?

Bad and in researched advice ideally shouldn't be given out to anyone. People will, though, and when they do, need to be called out on it so that myths can be exposed for the lies and the myths that they are.

If that is what you are saying then I totally agree with you. But as I've asserted before, bad advice doesn't always amount to victim blaming.

Unrealistic, unhelpful, and condescending advice given as blanket statements for everyone as preventative measures does include survivors hearing that horse crap and having to internally process it in regards to how supported they feel in their own community.

The lesson is clear: always take into account what the survivors experienced. Never brush us aside thinking what we hear and what we experience post-trauma is irrelevant. We must be a part of the conversation to help lead the way against future tragedies and atrocities.

 

[Flankerl]

I see no victim blaming here.
Telling people to take preventive measures to reduce the odds they will become victims in the future doesn't, in any way, count as victim blaming.

Thus if women dress like women in Islamic countries do, don't leave the house unnecessary or only with a male relative they won't become victims in the future.

Allahu Akbar to that.

 

[Jumi]

I think it is more of a case where if they see a young woman in a vulnerable situation, they will take advantage.

Not just young or "hot", but also disabled and many other things.

 

[4consideration]

If we imagine a continuum on which advice can range from "bad" to "victim blaming", I'd say that advice that amounts to "in the future, do the impossible", is closer to the victim blaming end of the spectrum.

I see what you're saying, although I think it's more like the old "duck and cover" advice, than being on the spectrum of victim-blaming.

I think it's a stretch to accuse her of victim blaming, if she really did say what she is reported by the BBC to have said (linked through the article from the OP.)

'Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker said the attacks were "monstrous". "We cannot allow this to become a lawless area," she said, insisting that visitors could not come to the city fearing attack.' http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

It doesn't follow for me that someone who is saying these attacks were "monstrous" was meaning the women attacked had any blame in the matter.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I see what you're saying, although I think it's more like the old "duck and cover" advice, than being on the spectrum of victim-blaming.

I think it's a stretch to accuse her of victim blaming, if she really did say what she is reported by the BBC to have said (linked through the article from the OP.)

'Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker said the attacks were "monstrous". "We cannot allow this to become a lawless area," she said, insisting that visitors could not come to the city fearing attack.' http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

It doesn't follow for me that someone who is saying these attacks were "monstrous" was meaning the women attacked had any blame in the matter.

I disagree.

"Duck and cover" said to Americans was stupid.

Saying "duck and cover" either directly to survivors or within earshot of survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is not just stupid and thoughtless, but demeaning and condescending. That is, if we are to consider this to be well-meaning advice.

These words don't exist in a bubble, and they carry different weight on different people.

 

[prometheus11]

I disagree.

"Duck and cover" said to Americans was stupid.

Saying "duck and cover" either directly to survivors or within earshot of survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is not just stupid and thoughtless, but demeaning and condescending. That is, if we are to consider this to be well-meaning advice.

These words don't exist in a bubble, and they carry different weight on different people.

Completely agree. Not victim blaming though.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who says that they are running from ISIS?

Not necessarily ISIS, but groups like ISIS, regimes that rule with a violent fist, and other bad circumstances.

To think that conservative Islam is not more dangerous than conservative Christianity is ridiculous.

You apparently didn't understand. Conservative Muslims and conservative Christians both pose the same level of threat because both groups want to work within the system to turn their religious dogma into legal legislation. In America, this threat is faced over women potentially not having access to vital health care, legislation that allows for discrimination against those who are GLBT, and even trying to teach their religious mythos as scientific fact in public classrooms. Conservative Muslims are in the same boat, and the espouse the same morality that comes from the same sources, and these conservative values just are not congruent with modern day values as they easily, often, and unnecessarily impede and infringe upon the rights of others, particularly those who do not believe the same thing.

 

[Thanda]

Bad and in researched advice ideally shouldn't be given out to anyone. People will, though, and when they do, need to be called out on it so that myths can be exposed for the lies and the myths that they are.



Unrealistic, unhelpful, and condescending advice given as blanket statements for everyone as preventative measures does include survivors hearing that horse crap and having to internally process it in regards to how supported they feel in their own community.

The lesson is clear: always take into account what the survivors experienced. Never brush us aside thinking what we hear and what we experience post-trauma is irrelevant. We must be a part of the conversation to help lead the way against future tragedies and atrocities.

Like I said, I agree - I hope you also agree that bad advice is not victim blaming.