Mass Assault in Cologne, Mayor blames female victims ?!

[Thanda]

this threat is faced over women potentially not having access to vital health care

What is the vital healthcare that is being threatened?

 

[Flankerl]

 

[Curious George]

Like I said, I agree - I hope you also agree that bad advice is not victim blaming.

I think the trouble is you are speaking towards behavior that is per se victim blaming while she is discussing a range a victim blaming, which includes statements that foster per se victim blaming, and imply that the speaker on some level feels the victims of sexual assault has some degree of fault. So, if someone gets on national television and says do x to avoid y, they either believe that those who have not avoided y are guilty of not doing x (except for occasional outliers) or they are encouraging others to think that way. Thus, people refer to these statements as victim blaming, even though they are not the per se victim blaming such as asking a person who was raped what he or she did or might have done to "excite" the attacker.

 

[Thanda]

I think the trouble is you are speaking towards behavior that is per se victim blaming while she is discussing a range a victim blaming, which includes statements that foster per se victim blaming, and imply that the speaker on some level feels the victims of sexual assault has some degree of fault. So, if someone gets on national television and says do x to avoid y, they either believe that those who have not avoided y are guilty of not doing x (except for occasional outliers) or they are encouraging others to think that way. Thus, people refer to these statements as victim blaming, even though they are not the per se victim blaming such as asking a person who was raped what he or she did or might have done to "excite" the attacker.

Exactly. If you are addressing someone who has just been attacked, and instead of consoling them and finding the criminal all you care about is asking them what they did not land themselves in trouble - then in that case you are blaming the victim. However if you give general safety tips about how to avoid being a victim of a crime - even if that crime is rape - then you are not blaming them for the actions of the criminal. Criminals need two things to commit a crime - a motive and an opportunity. We have nothing to do with the motive (most of the time). But we can often do something to prevent them having the opportunity.


Btw, why do Americans call rape "sexual assault"?

 

[Revoltingest]

Like I said, I agree - I hope you also agree that bad advice is not victim blaming.

This suggests that there's a great deal of misunderstanding due to incompatible perspectives.
Many of us would fit into one of the old stereotypical orientations.....
1) Wanting feelings validated
2) Fixing the problem
Type 1 people want something, but type 2 people are addressing something else.
This might make type 1 people thing the type 2s don't care, & are even judging them.
Type 2s don't get why type 1s react with hostility towards help.

Now, for your viewing pleasure, a video which crops up here pretty often....

We clueless type 2s (ie, the fixers) request that type 1s not call us misogynistic rape apologists
for our clumsy attempts to fix things. We don't blame you. We just want to prevent more suffering.
But we're often not very good at expressing this....& we're slow learners.

 

[prometheus11]

I think the trouble is you are speaking towards behavior that is per se victim blaming while she is discussing a range a victim blaming, which includes statements that foster per se victim blaming, and imply that the speaker on some level feels the victims of sexual assault has some degree of fault. So, if someone gets on national television and says do x to avoid y, they either believe that those who have not avoided y are guilty of not doing x (except for occasional outliers) or they are encouraging others to think that way. Thus, people refer to these statements as victim blaming, even though they are not the per se victim blaming such as asking a person who was raped what he or she did or might have done to "excite" the attacker.

But that's just wrong.

If you've got to presume how some individuals of a certain group "V" might extrapolate some interpretation based on unintended perceptions of explicit warnings to people SPECIFICALLY NOT "V" then you're jumping through imaginary hurdles merely for the sake of wishing the speaker had said something that fits your accusation.

Illogical steps of caution given to non victims isn't victim blaming.

 

[Revoltingest]

Btw, why do Americans call rape "sexual assault"?

Rape is a subset of sexual assault, which can include unwanted touching.

 

[Thanda]

Rape is a subset of sexual assault, which can include unwanted touching.

I see. I just find it a bit weird because some people use the words as if they are interchangeable.

 

[Revoltingest]

I see. I just find it a bit weird because some people use the words as if they are interchangeable.

Confusion of the 2 terms does cause some trouble here.

 

[Thanda]

Confusion of the 2 terms does cause some trouble here.

Indeed, some people end up finding statistics about sexual assault (which could be huge depending on how you define the term - even overheard jokes are fair game) and then they start quoting the stats as if they were speaking specifically about rape.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What is the vital healthcare that is being threatened?

Cancer screenings, STI screenings, contraception, abortion - pretty much everything that Planned Parenthood does, and even though only a very small percentage of what they do is abortions, conservative Christians tend to be some of the strongest, loudest, and most vocal opponent of PP, and want to see PP shut down regardless of the fact that 97% of what they do is provide invaluable health services to women and men.

 

[Thanda]

Cancer screenings, STI screenings, contraception, abortion - pretty much everything that Planned Parenthood does, and even though only a very small percentage of what they do is abortions, conservative Christians tend to be some of the strongest, loudest, and most vocal opponent of PP, and want to see PP shut down regardless of the fact that 97% of what they do is provide invaluable health services to women and men.

I see. I have seen their arguments in that regard. They (I'm not American) say providing money to planned parenthood subsidizes abortions. Kind of like if somebody was running a completely legit business, except for the cocaine they sell on the side. If he says to you, "Hey man, Invest! I won't use your money for the cocaine - I'll keep things separate". I'm guessing most people would still have an issue.

 

[Jumi]

I don't think we'll find someone who sells cocaine for 3% of their legitimate business.

 

[Thanda]

I don't think we'll find someone who sells cocaine for 3% of their legitimate business.

Even if that were true, how would it be relevant?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The problem here for the defenders or apologists for Reker is not just about rape prevention, because for heavens sake women are already given multitudes of how-not-to-get-raped advice throughout most of our lives.

I feel this point really needs iterated, not only because it's very true, but because my own situation adds a unique perspective. Of course I heard such advice being directed towards women, quiet often, before I embraced myself as trans, but once I embraced myself and started taking steps towards transitioning, the very first time I met a trans-support group the issue came up, and I found myself having the same advice directed towards me. It always does fall back on women. Even as a "guy with lots of female friends," I've never heard any advice of situations, behaviors, or other potential indications to help friends stay out of such bad situations. There is nothing that men are told in regards to handling urges for inappropriate sexual conduct and rape. But women are bombarded with advice about how to not get raped, and it's never anything new, full-proof, or really even that effective given the statistics on rape (especially in regards to the acquaintance aspect that is frequently a factor in rape).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I feel this point really needs iterated, not only because it's very true, but because my own situation adds a unique perspective. Of course I heard such advice being directed towards women, quiet often, before I embraced myself as trans, but once I embraced myself and started taking steps towards transitioning, the very first time I met a trans-support group the issue came up, and I found myself having the same advice directed towards me. It always does fall back on women. Even as a "guy with lots of female friends," I've never heard any advice of situations, behaviors, or other potential indications to help friends stay out of such bad situations. There is nothing that men are told in regards to handling urges for inappropriate sexual conduct and rape. But women are bombarded with advice about how to not get raped, and it's never anything new, full-proof, or really even that effective given the statistics on rape (especially in regards to the acquaintance aspect that is frequently a factor in rape).

*applauds*

Preach!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They (I'm not American) say providing money to planned parenthood subsidizes abortions.

That's a part of it, even though there is not one cent of federal funding that pays for abortions. But the whole thing must burn because of a few abortions, and the edited video certainly didn't help, even though it's known to be heavily and carefully edited.

Kind of like if somebody was running a completely legit business, except for the cocaine they sell on the side. If he says to you, "Hey man, Invest! I won't use your money for the cocaine - I'll keep things separate". I'm guessing most people would still have an issue.

That part isn't really a valid comparisson, as the abortions are legal - they just don't do that many of them and they have the overall goal of reducing the need and want for abortions.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Man... I especially miss @Alceste when I see threads like this one. She helped balance the scales a lot.

 

[columbus]

If we imagine a continuum on which advice can range from "bad" to "victim blaming", I'd say that advice that amounts to "in the future, do the impossible", is closer to the victim blaming end of the spectrum.

What better advice could the mayor have given?
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Man... I especially miss @Alceste when I see threads like this one. She helped balance the scales a lot.

Always good to make the echo chamber louder, eh?

(Btw, you're allowed to slap me after remarks like this one.)

What better advice could the mayor have given?
Tom

Had I been the mayor, I'd have given no advice.
(News reports would already alerted everyone to the risk.
And to describe the perps might be illegal hate speech in Germany.)
Just announce a stern crackdown on crime.
(And then actually implement it.)