Master Path - Gary Olsen

[judas_kiss]

That's probably part of the draw for chelas - believing that they're the only people who get access to the "real" God. It's a good marketing ploy actually.

Gary Olsen and his followers aren't concerned about all the other souls in the universe. They seem to think they earned this amazing opportunity by being more spiritually advanced ("ready") than everyone else. :thud:

Gee Violet, what then does that make us... we must really be the fallen ones... to have the "real" god right here at our finger tips and see only evil!

 

[Anticult7]

That's right Violet. Yup...Chela signed his/her post Blessing to All as if we were receiving a lofty benediction from someone far more spiritually advanced than we mere peons :shout

That's probably part of the draw for chelas - believing that they're the only people who get access to the "real" God. It's a good marketing ploy actually.

Gary Olsen and his followers aren't concerned about all the other souls in the universe. They seem to think they earned this amazing opportunity by being more spiritually advanced ("ready") than everyone else. :thud:

 

[Anticult7]

Right Violet. That makes Gary Olsen's Masterpath a C-U-L-T !

That's probably part of the draw for chelas - believing that they're the only people who get access to the "real" God. It's a good marketing ploy actually.

Gary Olsen and his followers aren't concerned about all the other souls in the universe. They seem to think they earned this amazing opportunity by being more spiritually advanced ("ready") than everyone else. :thud:

 

[Fandango]

That's probably part of the draw for chelas - believing that they're the only people who get access to the "real" God. It's a good marketing ploy actually.

Gary Olsen and his followers aren't concerned about all the other souls in the universe. They seem to think they earned this amazing opportunity by being more spiritually advanced ("ready") than everyone else. :thud:

That's been my argument all along...if it's so awesome and legitimate, why doesn't the world know? Why doesn't Oprah know?? :sarcastic

 

[Violet Jones]

That's been my argument all along...if it's so awesome and legitimate, why doesn't the world know? Why doesn't Oprah know?? :sarcastic

No kidding! Why hasn't he met with the Dalai Lama yet? :biglaugh:

Based on what I've read and heard on the tapes, I think some chelas (particularly overseas) DO think Gary is some sort of famous VIP in the U.S. and that he has thousands and thousands of followers.

It seems Gary occasionally tries to perpetuate this delusion - ie. the comments about whispering in George W. Bush's ear, etc.

Funny, MP's membership seems to have decreased, even with Gary's pyramid scheme and "Master's Global Cause" efforts. Why haven't the vibrations emanating from the true "godman" attracted more seekers to the "Divine Current"?

Meanwhile, Eckankar and M.S.I.A. have like 50-100+ times as many followers as MasterPath. The "currents" flowing from Harold Klemp, J.R. and Ching Hai are all able to guide thousands of seekers to their respective paths. But the "Supreme Deity"...not so much.

Seriously, how can chelas possibly believe THEY are on the path to enlightenment with the true sat guru, and the ENTIRE rest of the world isn't "ready"? Aye yi yi. :areyoucra

 

[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

Thread re-opened and moved to General Religious Debates.
​

 

[Fandango]

:clap

 

[Ben Dhyan]

:clap

:clap2:.....and thanks Admin..:highfive:

 

[Zeeker]

Funny, MP's membership seems to have decreased, even with Gary's pyramid scheme and "Master's Global Cause" efforts. Why haven't the vibrations emanating from the true "godman" attracted more seekers to the "Divine Current"?

Meanwhile, Eckankar and M.S.I.A. have like 50-100+ times as many followers as MasterPath. The "currents" flowing from Harold Klemp, J.R. and Ching Hai are all able to guide thousands of seekers to their respective paths. But the "Supreme Deity"...not so much.

Seriously, how can chelas possibly believe THEY are on the path to enlightenment with the true sat guru, and the ENTIRE rest of the world isn't "ready"? Aye yi yi. :areyoucra

As a matter or interest, what is the current membership of MasterPath? What evidence is there that shows it is receding into decline?

Back on the City-Data forum it was mentioned that MP membership was somewhere below the 2,000 mark (maybe 1800+ odd), and that would be a couple of years ago now. If I remember rightly, my chela friend told me 1300 (or was it 300? I'm not sure now) participants typically attend these seeker sessions that are held monthly over the summer out West. At the time I thought: gosh that's a lot for a group I had never heard of before; maybe I'm onto something ? Was she trying to impress me with her exaggerations? To anyone who has been to these meetings: how many typically attend. Can these venues cater for 1300, or more likely 300, participants?

In comparison: I've often heard that Eckankar has over 50,000 members and Scientology has at least 200,000 active members with heard of claims into the millions.

 

[Fandango]

I'm guessing they are pretty small seminars ... judging by the YouTube videos, it looks like a typical small conference room at a hotel, so I'd guess these seminars draw less than 200 people ... I still have a theory that large seminars are going to draw more attention in the form of scrutiny that Olsen doesn't want.

What's telling to me is the apologetic tone on the MP website in the "About" section...going to great lengths to portray that it's all above-board.

 

[Zeeker]

Many years ago I accepted an invitation to attend a free conference at The Summit Lighthouse retreat, called Camelot, located in the back hills to the north of Malibu Beach in California. The Summit Lighthouse is a New Age group founded by Mark and Elizabeth Prophet. The grounds at Camelot were spacious with many buildings all over the place. There were many hundreds of attendees present for the conference gathering. I was a total stranger and knew no one there. I received my name tag at the registration desk, which was color coded with no colored circle sticker indicator, so I was tagged as a complete outsider. I remember seeing these large framed portraits around the place – of The Ascended Masters, with the proverbial long beards and/or bushy moustaches and/or wearing turbans (Saint Germain was one of them I recall). There were seminars and I was inside one of the buildings viewing a video screen listening to Elizabeth Prophet speak. I noted references to astrology, the Path of the Soul, the Divine Self and such like, during the lectures. I heard Elizabeth speaking in a bellowing authoritative voice to all her audience located throughout the grounds. It did become “overpowering” for those around me as they displayed transfixed gazes towards Elizabeth’s image on the screen, and then began raising their arms over their heads while repeating some verses she had uttered. It reminded me of attending a Pentecostal Church meeting, if you’ve ever been to one of those. I made a point not to join in and do the same, which felt quite awkward at the start. To just be there, observe, and take it all in. I began to realize that I was the only “black sheep” in the place who was not participating, but no one else seemed to notice as they were all too self–absorbed in their own worship. :namaste

I went outside and wandered through the grounds during a break. Who should I spot ambling along slowly and talking to another woman, all by themselves in a quite area just a stones throw away, but Elizabeth Prophet herself. “Wow!:dan:Here you go!" I told myself. A golden opportunity to meet this person in the flesh and find out what she is like, for Real! As I was walking towards Elizabeth and collecting my thoughts on what I was going to say during our conversation, a young man in a suite side-stepped in front of me. He started to point in my direction, :tsk: indicating that I should go back the way I had come. Only then did I notice that there were four of them there keeping a perimeter. All just standing and looking outwards, keeping a 30 yard radius of clear space around the deity. :162:

I found my visit to Camelot a very interesting experience, although I have had nothing more to do with The Summit Lighthouse since. To anyone who has attended a scheduled MasterPath meeting: What are They like? Is there a reception where you are given a name tag to make it easy to strike up a conversation with strangers? A member’s initiation level must be a proudly recognized achievement. How do you come to know an initiates status? Who attends the seekers meetings: is it roughly 50/50 mix of existing members and newcomers? Are most newcomers joined by their one-on-one chaperone? Are there extracurricular activities, group events and/or satsangs, after the seminar sessions. We can only get a vague impression of what meetings are like from the video clips. What was/are MasterPath Meetings like for You? I would love to read about your experiences there.

 

[Vichar]

To anyone who has attended a scheduled MasterPath meeting: What are They like? Is there a reception where you are given a name tag to make it easy to strike up a conversation with strangers? A member’s initiation level must be a proudly recognized achievement. How do you come to know an initiates status? Who attends the seekers meetings: is it roughly 50/50 mix of existing members and newcomers? Are most newcomers joined by their one-on-one chaperone? Are there extracurricular activities, group events and/or satsangs, after the seminar sessions. We can only get a vague impression of what meetings are like from the video clips. What was/are MasterPath Meetings like for You? I would love to read about your experiences there.

I am a MasterPath student of eight years. This looks like a sincere question so I will try to answer it.

At meetings, there are indeed name tags but I've never found that it makes striking up conversation any easier or harder.

I've never asked anyone about their level of initiation. I've been focused on my own inner journey and it seems inappropriate to ask others about their "level". I suspect the intiations are merely there as a way to provide focus for concentration, as all progress comes as the result of concentrating the attention energy. A good analogy might be educating kids in math. In algebra class, you learn algebra, which precedes calculus. By dividing math into smaller subjects, it allows the student to concentrate better.

It seems to me that seeker meetings are attended mostly by existing students, with only a small portion of the audience being made up of new seekers. Still, I see lots of new faces at every seeker meeting.

As for the meeting itself, I will describe its outer structure briefly. The meeting begins with a HU chant, which is simply everyone in the room singing a single note on the word "HU" (hyoo). This is meant to settle down the attention and re-center. After this, the master gives a talk lasting about an hour regarding the nature of the spiritual journey. He always says approximately the same thing at seeker meetings, but I always glean something different from them.

You didn't ask about fees, but I will volunteer that information here. Seeker meetings do not cost money but subsequent student meetings cost $40 USD. You didn't ask my opinion on money and spirituality so I'll refrain from providing it.

What do I experience at these meetings? Every one is a deeply moving spiritual experience for me. It's never been about the specific words that I read in the books or the specific words spoken by Gary at the meetings. I have always felt that everyone is on the path already. The Light and Sound teachings seem to already be inside of me, and the outer words are merely a form of reference, a kind of "look over here". After meetings I feel much more centered and at peace. My worries and concerns are not gone; rather, I am able to raise my state of consciousness to a place where these concerns are put in perspective. Rather than avoiding those issues that are bothering me I feel more prepared to address them. I stop beating myself up about doing "poorly" (in my own eyes) and re-focus my attention on where it needs to be.

But these are my experiences, and there is nothing to say you will experience the same thing at a seeker meeting. You may go to one and feel nothing. In my opinion, spirituality is profoundly personal--it's a personal relationship with god. So it's not about MasterPath, but rather about what moves you personally, inside. The only advice I can offer is one that I attempted to follow myself: I tried to follow the scent of love and understanding. Any path or teaching that isn't about love, in my opinion, is not one that I would want to follow.

May your own journey bring you fulfillment and joy.

 

[Vichar]

As a matter or interest, what is the current membership of MasterPath? What evidence is there that shows it is receding into decline?

Back on the City-Data forum it was mentioned that MP membership was somewhere below the 2,000 mark (maybe 1800+ odd), and that would be a couple of years ago now. If I remember rightly, my chela friend told me 1300 (or was it 300? I'm not sure now) participants typically attend these seeker sessions that are held monthly over the summer out West. At the time I thought: gosh that's a lot for a group I had never heard of before; maybe I'm onto something ? Was she trying to impress me with her exaggerations? To anyone who has been to these meetings: how many typically attend. Can these venues cater for 1300, or more likely 300, participants?

In comparison: I've often heard that Eckankar has over 50,000 members and Scientology has at least 200,000 active members with heard of claims into the millions.

I never counted the number of students in the auditorium with me. It seemed like there were about 1000 people there (as an order of magnitude estimation). It is sometimes more or less. As the years went by it seems more people have been attending, to the point where we won't all fit into the existing venues. Many more students attend via internet broadcast or by dialing a phone number--I used the internet service myself once and the experience was largely the same for me. Still, for reasons I can't explain well I still prefer to attend in person.

 

[Zeeker]

I am a MasterPath student of eight years. This looks like a sincere question so I will try to answer it.

Thank you Vichar, and welcome to the discussion.

At meetings, there are indeed name tags but I've never found that it makes striking up conversation any easier or harder.

I find it more “friendly” when I am able to talk to someone and can call them by their first name by seeing it on their lapel. It is also good to recall the name of someone you rarely see, rather than not say it because it has been forgotten, or even mistakenly use a wrong name (I've done that).

I've never asked anyone about their level of initiation. I've been focused on my own inner journey and it seems inappropriate to ask others about their "level". I suspect the initiations are merely there as a way to provide focus for concentration, as all progress comes as the result of concentrating the attention energy. A good analogy might be educating kids in math. In algebra class, you learn algebra, which precedes calculus. By dividing math into smaller subjects, it allows the student to concentrate better.

So you are saying that for the most part, chelas are unaware and uninterested in other members’ level of initiation? That it is just a personal confirmation of having passed particular guideposts. Your analogy of math class progressions suggests that there is a “curriculum” for a chela to follow, a stipulated discourse of stages on their path. I understand that with recognition beyond the 4th level, endorsement by Gary himself is required?

It seems to me that seeker meetings are attended mostly by existing students, with only a small portion of the audience being made up of new seekers. Still, I see lots of new faces at every seeker meeting. As for the meeting itself, I will describe its outer structure briefly. The meeting begins with a HU chant, which is simply everyone in the room singing a single note on the word "HU" (hyoo). This is meant to settle down the attention and re-center.

I understand the “Hu” is also sung at the start of the daily contemplation exercises, and that it introduces the start of all the discourse and study tapes and recordings? That it is a prompt to enter into a relaxed altered state, a trance if you will, to more readily digest and accept the “information” that is being presented.

After this, the master gives a talk lasting about an hour regarding the nature of the spiritual journey. He always says approximately the same thing at seeker meetings, but I always glean something different from them.

This is something I have questions about. Why do chelas pay to attend the same meetings to hear the same introductory material over and over again? Most everyday people would find it boring to have to listen to the same thing over and over again .…unless they were on drugs, or something, and saw it differently every time. Or, is it the attraction of seeing Gary again every time, and being awe inspired by that?

Another “seekers” experience of mine I’ll mention. I attended an introductory seekers meeting with the “Moonies’ twice. You can review my previous post for more detail:

Re: List of responsibilities for the "Area Supervisor"

At my second meeting attendance I began to realize what was going on. That the meeting was primarily for the benefit of, and to persuade, new seekers. That existing members were there for their role in orchestrating a repeat performance every time. It left me with an eerie uncanny feeling with those around me being unauthentic and merely acting out a play in the interests of a hidden agenda, I was starting to become aware of. That the members present were doing it for what they conceived to be a “higher good” (according to the group of course), even if it meant tricking or misleading newcomers in order to have them make a commitment to participate and join.

You didn't ask about fees, but I will volunteer that information here. Seeker meetings do not cost money but subsequent student meetings cost $40 USD. You didn't ask my opinion on money and spirituality so I'll refrain from providing it.

I can understand the need to charge for admission. The rent for the venue has to come from somewhere. Are there 3 such sessions during a weekend meeting? Are you saying that only the first such session is free to any new seeker? The subsequent 2 sessions the seeker will have to pay for, and that chelas pay for all the sessions they attend during the weekend. I also have the impression that a seeker would be able to attend all sessions during a weekend meeting for free, if they asked for it and showed clear signs of becoming a member after.

What do I experience at these meetings? Every one is a deeply moving spiritual experience for me. It's never been about the specific words that I read in the books or the specific words spoken by Gary at the meetings. I have always felt that everyone is on the path already. The Light and Sound teachings seem to already be inside of me, and the outer words are merely a form of reference, a kind of "look over here". After meetings I feel much more centered and at peace. My worries and concerns are not gone; rather, I am able to raise my state of consciousness to a place where these concerns are put in perspective. Rather than avoiding those issues that are bothering me I feel more prepared to address them. I stop beating myself up about doing "poorly" (in my own eyes) and re-focus my attention on where it needs to be.

I can relate to that. For example: I can pickup a book by Jiddu Krishnamurti and almost all of what he has to say in his impromptu dialogues simple just rings true for me. What I read is actually what I already know, on the inside, with the text simply reminding me of what I am but continuously forgetting. (Krishnamurti was not a “guru” as such, but regarded by many as a modern day prophet of the 20th century, who talked on such topics as: life, consciousness, spirituality, war and peace.) The thing here is, all I need to do is read the book, with no “qualified” discourse or any required rituals to follow. It’s already there, inside me, and only requires a conscious reminder. I have to add that I do not get any such sensation of “self-evident truth” when I have listened to Gary’s “advanced” tapes, but experienced quite the contrary. A person should not be required to be “inducted” (in fact that is a sure sign they are being condition, by undoubtedly someone else) in order to realize their truth, and is fully capable of seeing it “cold sober.” If meetings are helping you feel more centered and at peace, then something is certainly working for you. I’m not that sure that there are no “obligations” when it becomes dependent on someone outside of yourself.

But these are my experiences, and there is nothing to say you will experience the same thing at a seeker meeting. You may go to one and feel nothing. In my opinion, spirituality is profoundly personal--it's a personal relationship with god. So it's not about MasterPath, but rather about what moves you personally, inside. The only advice I can offer is one that I attempted to follow myself: I tried to follow the scent of love and understanding. Any path or teaching that isn't about love, in my opinion, is not one that I would want to follow.

I’ve hear that before. That your encounter is a personal experience and different from anyone else’s. That with the contemplations, your questions will be answered with personal meaning. I have yet to hear about any individual experiences and the answers of chelas therein. I have the impression they are related to karma: why certain situations in life present and repeat themselves (in relation to the past), and how they are being progressively worked through and overcome as a matter of personal development? Are you able to describe some of what has happened with you, and your discoveries on your spiritual journey?

May your own journey bring you fulfillment and joy.

Thank you Vichar. May your path be transparent and lead you to greater awareness.

 

[Zeeker]

I never counted the number of students in the auditorium with me. It seemed like there were about 1000 people there (as an order of magnitude estimation). It is sometimes more or less. As the years went by it seems more people have been attending, to the point where we won't all fit into the existing venues. Many more students attend via internet broadcast or by dialing a phone number--I used the internet service myself once and the experience was largely the same for me. Still, for reasons I can't explain well I still prefer to attend in person.

Thanks for that Vichar.

From what you say there are many more than 2-300 (about triple that) attendees regularly at the seeker’s meetings. What do you mean by being unable to explain well why you prefer to attend in person. Is it too personal to explain, or have you not given it much conscious though – and maybe contemplation will uncover an answer for you?

 

[Vichar]

Thank you for the welcome Zeeker! You broke up your quote and response to me, and it would be hard to formally quote your questions. I will try to respond to the questions I read above without going to the trouble of cutting and pasting the quote syntax--I hope that's OK.

So you are saying that for the most part, chelas are unaware and uninterested in other members’ level of initiation?
I can't speak for other chelas; I can only relate to you my own areas of focus.

I understand that with recognition beyond the 4th level, endorsement by Gary himself is required?

I don't know.

Why do chelas pay to attend the same meetings to hear the same introductory material over and over again? ... Or, is it the attraction of seeing Gary again every time, and being awe inspired by that?
This will take more words to explain. I realize that it seems like the same words again and again. I don't know exactly what you believe, so forgive me if I misstep and say something that sounds odd or simply untrue to you.

I believe we are a complex being, composed of more than just body, thoughts, and emotions. We are beings composed of spirit, and all else follows from that. Our bodies are simply coverings we've been stuffed into, and it's a poor fit. I know there is a lot of doubt / anger / skepticism directed at Gary in this thread, so I won't try to convince anyone of anything. What matters to me is my own experience, and at these meetings I experience a relaxation, an opening, like pushing weights over the edge of the basket of my balloon. I rise up naturally in consciousness as a result, although I've since learned to do this in degree on my own. I like to think of it as a sort of spiritual osmosis, or maybe thermodynamic principle. If you are cold, and you stand next to a fire, you feel warmer. In that same way, proximity to Gary seems to do wonder for my level of awareness. The proximity doesn't have to be physical, and I know that--this is a personal limitation of mine right now, one that I transcend from time to time. It's not about what Gary is saying with his mouth. The true master is inside of me, and it's operating at a wavelength that is unfamiliar to me, like a language I haven't spoken in a long time or a frequency that my current tuner is unable to reach. Gary the man is able to point me in the right direction. It's like learning to throw a frisbee or shoot an arrow. Sure, you can read a book and try to do it, but if you have a teacher you can feel what they are doing with their body and it helps you. In the same way, being close to Gary, whether in person or in attention, lets me remember the pattern that I followed before to raise my awareness. It helps me. This is the best way I can explain it right now; maybe I'll try again later if this explanation is unsatisfactory.

EDIT:
What do you mean by being unable to explain well why you prefer to attend in person. Is it too personal to explain, or have you not given it much conscious though – and maybe contemplation will uncover an answer for you?
Attending in person feels like a personal limitation of mine. When I'm in a lower state of consciousness, I don't remember the higher states and I don't remember how I got there. Gary in the physical seems to more easily be able to grab me in my physical state and ease me into a higher state. I believe this to be a limitation of mine, not his. In time, I've gotten better at raising my attention on my own. I'm not sure if I'm answering your question...

Are you saying that only the first such session is free to any new seeker?
Yes, that is correct.

I have the impression they are related to karma: why certain situations in life present and repeat themselves (in relation to the past), and how they are being progressively worked through and overcome as a matter of personal development? Are you able to describe some of what has happened with you, and your discoveries on your spiritual journey?
I will try to introduce my own experiences in this way: I believe we are students in a classroom, and the classroom is our human body and human experience. We are given this experience to learn some basic stuff, like cause and effect, personal responsibility, understanding, acceptance, receptivity to the truth (as opposed to our pop-culture concrete realism that most of us believe in by default). For a long time, the lessons are pretty automatic, like learning your multiplication tables. We learn by rote, we make a lot of mistakes, and we aren't ready for explicit instruction. After enough of these experiences, our awareness becomes refined enough that we begin to feel unfulfilled with the scope of human awareness. Put differently, the toy trucks and dolls aren't fun to play with anymore, and we want more.

I can try to relate my spiritual experiences, but I now believe it's not a good idea to be too explicit. Why is it not a good idea? Well, reading this thread, I see others accusing MasterPath students of being arrogant, elitist, and thinking too highly of themselves. I would not want to relate my experiences only to have that opinion reinforced in the reader's mind. When I've told people about my experiences in the past, I got the distinct impression that they were either jealous or sensitive in some way, and so I've learned to be more discreet.

I'll offer up this: before I was ever on the path I used to practice lucid dreaming. Eventually I became better at it, and I realized that part of the trick was realizing that I was really dreaming while the dream was still going on. After that point, miraculous things would happen: I would gain control over my environment; I could change scary / undesirable situations; I could refine my sensory experience in the dream so that it seemed as real or more real than the "physical" reality. Since I've been on MP, I've come to see my human is much like a kind of dream, and when I can "wake up" more, I become more aware and I am able to transcend the human mental and emotional tendencies that get me in trouble / are meant to distract me. Going to seminar is like that--it feels like a kind of waking up. Usually one of the first things I think / feel are, "Whoa, what have I been doing these last few months? Why did I let myself fall asleep again? I have to try and remember what this feels like so it is easier to raise my consciousness on my own." It's a lot like lucid dreaming. I'll just finish by saying I'm now past the point where I squander my moments of lucidity on cheap tricks like flying or acts of psychic power or elimination of fears / anxieties. Gary has shown me that there are actually qualitatively different worlds waiting beyond the current range of my mental / emotional / physical experience that I'm used to--I see now that a human life is just "more of the same" again and again.

You ask me, doesn't hearing same thing get boring after a while? I might ask the same of myself and my fellow human beings: the same desires of sex, fame, money, respect, attention from others--doesn't that get old after a while?

 

[Vichar]

This is a long thread. I wanted to read it all so that I could give the opinions expressed herein a fair shake. There are a lot of negative comments in this thread, but I found this question that seems sincere:

Also, PM21, instead of attempting to prove anything to us....why can't you simply answer questions? I'm still waiting for a single chela to share how he/she assesses the efficacy of the guru. I think it is a fair, simple, and legitimate question.

You assess the efficacy of the guru by observing the changes in your own consciousness. What is going on in your life? Are you the same person?

I find that since I've been on the path, I've become more patient, more loving, less prone to anger, and more responsible for my actions. (Before I was on the path, I probably would have responded negatively to some of the criticism that I'm reading in this thread.)

By following the teachings, I have been able to confirm for myself that what Gary has been telling me all along is quite real. All I can say is that they are qualitatively different than any other experiences I can remember in this lifetime, and there is nothing at all subtle about them.

As a scientist I must volunteer the possibility that the two events (my being on the path and my inner experiences) could simply be temporally related, and not causually related. I choose to believe that they are causually related, because I can repeat the results each time I perform the same actions.

Could I have achieved the same results with a different guru? Frankly, I don't know. I had no other guru to study with.

Could I have achieved the same results on my own? Again, who knows? All I know is that before the path, I wasn't getting anywhere in my inner journey.

Also: my heart really goes out to zizzer. She seems very distraught by her experiences with masterpath. I'm so glad that you got off masterpath if it was hurting you. I hope that you learn to trust again so that when you find something real and true to you, you will embrace it and be whole.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Could I have achieved the same results on my own? Again, who knows? All I know is that before the path, I wasn't getting anywhere in my inner journey.

Welcome to RF Vichar. Fwiw, it is my understanding is that THAT which is represented by the concept God, Higher Self, etc., is the real Guru, Master, etc., and that this is the ultimate realization.... or if you will, the final initiation. Iow, so long as there is a 'you' seeking enlightenment, oneness, etc., then the realization of the underlying indivisible unity of one's true nature remains eternally impossible.

THIS which seeks is THAT which is sought and THIS which is sought is THAT which seeks, all else is illusion.

Of course it is understood that there is a prerequisite need for the disciple to approach the REAL through the expediency of dualistic teachings initially, but when the student is ready, the obvious error/maya of dualism becomes self evident and the inevitable last stage of reintegration begins.

As the mystical saying goes,..God only can ever reveal God to God.

 

[Zeeker]

Thank you for your reply Vichar. I’m getting a better picture and I find your account more than interesting. Leads on to further questions I’d be delighted to read your answers to. There's a 10,000 character limit on posts, so I've cut a little and put your quotes in bold quotations.

"Proximity to Gary seems to do wonder for my level of awareness. The proximity doesn't have to be physical, and I know that--this is a personal limitation of mine right now, one that I transcend from time to time. It's not about what Gary is saying with his mouth. The true master is inside of me, and it's operating at a wavelength that is unfamiliar to me, like a language I haven't spoken in a long time or a frequency that my current tuner is unable to reach. Gary the man is able to point me in the right direction. It's like learning to throw a frisbee or shoot an arrow. In the same way, being close to Gary, whether in person or in attention, lets me remember the pattern that I followed before to raise my awareness. It helps me. This is the best way I can explain it right now; maybe I'll try again later if this explanation is unsatisfactory."

Being in Gary’s proximity at meetings is effective way for you to raise your consciousness. Do you have any interaction with Gary at the meetings. For instance, would you receive a “knowing” gaze from him where the both of you know what it signifies and what is happening? Is there any thought transference, telepathy if you like, happening between the two of you? Does he say a few words as he walks by you that have demonstrated that he knows who you are and where you are “at,” at that moment? Who is it that you refer to as the true master here. Is it your own higher self, or garji. Does Gary, the man, “point you in the right direction” through the teachings, the discourses and tapes, or are you referring to a visualization of garji. If it is garji, how does garji operate and guide you? Does garji point and/or speak to you, or is something completely different going on?

When I read in Gary’s writings, that he, through the Inner Master, can be present with up to a “billion” devotees at once; I can’t help but think that Gary is pulling your leg ….big time. I do believe that all sorts of contact between engaging individuals are possible, but that it requires active participation on both sides of the equation. As for the possibility of distance communication among more that two individuals at once, I don’t know. You would have to be a “god” ….or something, to do that? I certainly can’t see Gary as being one of those: an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient entity; or whether any being remotely like that even exists.

"Attending in person feels like a personal limitation of mine. When I'm in a lower state of consciousness, I don't remember the higher states and I don't remember how I got there. Gary in the physical seems to more easily be able to grab me in my physical state and ease me into a higher state. I believe this to be a limitation of mine, not his. In time, I've gotten better at raising my attention on my own. I'm not sure if I'm answering your question..."

Locating to a higher state: I have the impression that chelas “travel” there during gross contemplation? Or are you able to go there at any moment, within a matter of seconds, with practice over time as you become proficient with the techniques you have learned? Attending the meetings and seeing Gary, in the physical, works best for you. As for remembering, surely you must be remembering something, tit bits or even selected portions of your experiences there. Otherwise you would never have known that you were there in the first place? As an accomplished lucid dreamer you must be well practiced in remember dreams? Be able to effectively recall what happened, by transferring your experiences from “shadow” memory to conscious memory before they fade away. Are dream recall and navigating the inner realms similar in many ways? I would have thought that the object of the exercise is to recall “information” from those higher states. That this knowledge is a resource, to be applied in wakeful living and assist in the development of your spiritual progress on the outer plane etc.?

How does the sound current fit in with all this? Do you not also know what plane you are in by the particular sounds you hear (e.g. Bees signifies the etheric plane, violins are in hukikat lok, a flute means atma lok, and so on). It seems odd to me that all the other L&S groups had to adopt what Eckankar came out with on what each specific sound represents. These so called higher realms would be a rather abstract, and individual, phenomena, I would have assumed? I suppose all shabda practitioners can become conditioned to associate specific sounds to particular planes, en mass. I realize I know next to nothing about what chelas actually do here. I would have thought it would be easier, and simpler, for a current surfer to discover their own cues in determining where they are; that it does not need to be all so specific?

"I can try to relate my spiritual experiences, but I now believe it's not a good idea to be too explicit. Why is it not a good idea? Well, reading this thread, I see others accusing MasterPath students of being arrogant, elitist, and thinking too highly of themselves. I would not want to relate my experiences only to have that opinion reinforced in the reader's mind. When I've told people about my experiences in the past, I got the distinct impression that they were either jealous or sensitive in some way, and so I've learned to be more discreet."

I know what you mean. We all have fixed ideas about many things and it is often easier to be closed minded. I bring to my mind the word “understand.” It means to stand under anything outside of your own thinking, and not to “elevate” yourself and look down on it. If it becomes and issue we can always carry on the discussion in private.

"Since I've been on MP, I've come to see my human is much like a kind of dream, and when I can "wake up" more, I become more aware and I am able to transcend the human mental and emotional tendencies that get me in trouble / are meant to distract me. Going to seminar is like that--it feels like a kind of waking up. Usually one of the first things I think / feel are, "Whoa, what have I been doing these last few months? Why did I let myself fall asleep again? I have to try and remember what this feels like so it is easier to raise my consciousness on my own.""

Sounds vaguely familiar. Want to ask you: have you been a user of recreational drugs at some stage? It is apparent to me that there is a predominance of those people that are attracted to “new age” type groups and the like. That those experiences can be similar to what you describe, and that they can be recreated without the use of drugs.

When I was involved with Scientology they had a program called the Purification Rundown. It was/is? a course designed to get all the toxins out of the bodies of former drug users, and included a physical exercise regime, sweating it out in saunas, as well as auditing. Invariably participants experienced “flashback,” and re-experiencing those states during their drug trips. The explanation was: that remains of those drugs were still being stored in the body. As they were being released, by doing the program, the experiences of the drugs will reoccur. I don’t buy that. I believe you can re-experience those states by the recall of those memories together with application of the faculties of your own mind, without the use of any drug. And, that when that happens, you can readily be misled and attribute the experience to something or someone outside of yourself.

"You ask me, doesn't hearing same thing get boring after a while? I might ask the same of myself and my fellow human beings: the same desires of sex, fame, money, respect, attention from others--doesn't that get old after a while?"

Variety is the “spice of life,” and to make it more interesting we should remain open to explore and discover things that are different and new. We are all here living in this “human” world, although we may come to realize we are not of it. I think we each need to find the right balance, in all things, and be able to differentiate the more important from the necessary.

 

[Vichar]

Welcome to RF Vichar. Fwiw, it is my understanding is that THAT which is represented by the concept God, Higher Self, etc., is the real Guru, Master, etc., and that this is the ultimate realization.... or if you will, the final initiation. Iow, so long as there is a 'you' seeking enlightenment, oneness, etc., then the realization of the underlying indivisible unity of one's true nature remains eternally impossible.

THIS which seeks is THAT which is sought and THIS which is sought is THAT which seeks, all else is illusion.

Of course it is understood that there is a prerequisite need for the disciple to approach the REAL through the expediency of dualistic teachings initially, but when the student is ready, the obvious error/maya of dualism becomes self evident and the inevitable last stage of reintegration begins.

As the mystical saying goes,..God only can ever reveal God to God.

Thank you for the welcome. I hear what you are saying. Esoteric teachings sound like gobbley-gook. And yet, when I focus attention and relax the mind, things suddenly become apparent.

Regarding your statement about "as long as YOU are seeking, enlightenment is impossible." Well, I would interpret that this way: We relate to the mind, think we ARE the mind, but the mind cannot become self realized, because it is not the true self. Still the mind, and what remains is free of the mind's influence.