Maybe I don't want to be a Christian any more

[Katzpur]

Katzpur is the good Samaritan!

Yes, I like that analogy!

Uh... That's really, really sweet of both of you, but I truly am not. :group: Nevertheless, you made my day. You really, really did.

 

[ayani]

i did say Christ-follower. this means Jesus of Nazareth, the man quoted, described, and written about in the Gospel narratives.

who points to Himself as unique, and fully sufficient for a person's salvation and reconciliation to God. who described Himself as the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the Gate for the sheep, and who promises to be with His followers forever, and to send the Holy Spirit to teach, guide, and convict our hearts.

Mormons believe that God sent Joseph Smith as well as Jesus to restore the church. the issue is whether or not this is true, and whether this is a concept that we can see Jesus pointing to or endorsing as He talks about Himself, and others who will come after Him.

we have to take into account the Lord, His words and examples, and the words and examples of Joseph Smith, as well.

if God did sent Smith, one can be a Christian and a Mormon, and ought to be. if He did not, one can not also be a Christ-follower, and a member of a church founded by a prophet whom God did not call or speak through.

Not according to everything else you said in your post.

 

[Katzpur]

if God did sent Smith, one can be a Christian and a Mormon, and ought to be. if He did not, one can not also be a Christ-follower, and a member of a church founded by a prophet whom God did not call or speak through.

Okay, I agree.

 

[ayani]

cool. that's basically all i'm saying, and logically it makes sense, setting aside one's persona beliefs for or against Smith's legitimacy as a prophet of God.

it's a similar logical consideration facing the possible validity Mohammad's claims, as well as Baha'ullah's, and others.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The older -- and wiser -- I get, and the more I hang out on RF, the more convinced I am that I don't really care whether I'm known as a Christian or not. As a matter of fact, more and more all the time, I'm starting to want to distance myself from people who call themselves "Christians."

I'm sorry that you feel that way. It seems that your attitude towards others is less than charitable. Many people call themselves Christians, but not all who do are. Should Christians not be called Christians?

Book of Mormon, Alma 46
15 And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come.
16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.

 

[blackout]

I'm sorry that you feel that way. It seems that your attitude towards others is less than charitable. Many people call themselves Christians, but not all who do are. Should Christians not be called Christians?

Book of Mormon, Alma 46
15 And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come.
16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.

*chokes*

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Don't even bother referring to me as a Christian (real or fake) any more because I want nothing to do with the Christianity I see all around me.

I sympathize with you. While I will always be a Christian, I'm increasingly becoming discouraged with the direction of most Christian churches and their selective enforcement and lack of enforcement of Biblical doctrine. It also seems to me that there are many proclaiming Christians who seldom show any true interest in developing the type of fellowship that Jesus commanded with-in the confinements of their own church, let alone, outside of their church.

As a Christian, I feel it's my responsibility to share my understanding of Scripture with other Christians (and non-Christians), so that they can choose for themselves it's relevance. I do this out of love for my God and His inspired Word and not for the feedback. People can criticize me all they want because for one, Jesus was criticized for sharing His knowledge of Scripture and two, I was once an ignorant Christian too who needed other mature Christians to show me my misunderstanding of Scripture. With-out them, we would not be having this discussion.

Are there arrogant and abusive Christians? Yes, because there are arrogant and abusive people. As Christians, we are well aware of the daunting challenge of building up it's members, sharing our admiration of Christ to those who don't believe, while keeping our own inter-demons at bay. With-out good Christians like yourself, (that's right, I said it ), Christianity looses the few people who actually have something meaningful to say about Christianity.

I hope you change your mind regarding calling yourself a Christian. But I won't think any less of you if you don't.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"As Christians, we are well aware of the daunting challenge of building up it's members, sharing our admiration of Christ to those who don't believe, . . ."

And WHY do you feel so compelled? Why can't you follow Carlin's 11th commandment?

What IS IT about this mythology that drives it to so aggressively expand belief in its nonsense?

Believe what ever myth(s) you like. Nobody really cares. But why oh WHY can't you practice some common respect for others and KEEP YOUR CRAP TO YOURSELVES?

You want special privileges for this myth, you want its precept taught in schools, enacted into law, used to control commerce, dictate speech, control science, etc etc etc.

WHY?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

I sympathize with you. While I will always be a Christian, I'm increasingly becoming discouraged with the direction of most Christian churches and their selective enforcement and lack of enforcement of Biblical doctrine. It also seems to me that there are many proclaiming Christians who seldom show any true interest in developing the type of fellowship that Jesus commanded with-in the confinements of their own church, let alone, outside of their church.

As a Christian, I feel it's my responsibility to share my understanding of Scripture with other Christians (and non-Christians), so that they can choose for themselves it's relevance. I do this out of love for my God and His inspired Word and not for the feedback. People can criticize me all they want because for one, Jesus was criticized for sharing His knowledge of Scripture and two, I was once an ignorant Christian too who needed other mature Christians to show me my misunderstanding of Scripture. With-out them, we would not be having this discussion.

Are there arrogant and abusive Christians? Yes, because there are arrogant and abusive people. As Christians, we are well aware of the daunting challenge of building up it's members, sharing our admiration of Christ to those who don't believe, while keeping our own inter-demons at bay. With-out good Christians like yourself, (that's right, I said it ), Christianity looses the few people who actually have something meaningful to say about Christianity.

I hope you change your mind regarding calling yourself a Christian. But I won't think any less of you if you don't.

I just don't understand LDS Christians. Why do LDS Christians want the approval of Christendom when the Mormon Church is claiming to restore apostate Christianity through new revelation apart from Scripture? If anyone should be angry in the flesh, it should be historic Christians since Mormonism is calling all of our brothers and sisters in Christ for the last 20 centuries to be apostate. Doesn't Christendom have the right to "contend for the Faith that was once for all delivered to the Saints" against LDS Christianity? After-all, God commands us in Jude 3 to do this very thing. Please, let's get some historical and theological perspective on personal claims of Katzpur and other LDS Christians.

http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-great-apostasy

Judgment on False Teachers

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. - Jude 3

 

[sojourner]

I just don't understand LDS Christians. Why do LDS Christians want the approval of Christendom when it’s your Mormon Church is claiming to restore apostate Christianity? If anyone should be angry in the flesh, it should be historic Christians since Mormonism is calling all of our brothers and sisters in Christ for the last 20 centuries to be apostate. Doesn't Christendom have the right to "contend for the Faith that was once for all delieved to the Saints" against LDS Christianity? Please, let's get some historical and theological perspective on personal claims of Katzpur and other LDS Christians.

The Great Apostasy

I don't mind opening the gates for any and letting them play on the playground. Where I run afoul is when they try to take over the playground, call it "theirs" instead of "Christ's," and force everyone to play the same game. I don't see Katz doing that. But I do see some non-Mormon Christians doing it!

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

I don't mind opening the gates for any and letting them play on the playground. Where I run afoul is when they try to take over the playground, call it "theirs" instead of "Christ's," and force everyone to play the same game. I don't see Katz doing that. But I do see some non-Mormon Christians doing it!

It all comes down to defining what authorative revelation is from above. Why would LDS revelation be as relevant as non-Christian revelation? Do you think the Quran should also be used to define authorative revelation from above in par with the Holy Scriptures, and the Book of Mormon? Why would it be up to you to decide to open and close the gates? Please consider my signature, because the only door that matters is defined by the Biblical Jesus Christ. I personally don't see Katzs and other Mormons to be faithful to the Mormon claim of restoration of apostate Christianity. They too have been heavily influenced by religious pluarlism (many ways to God apart from the Son).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

cool. that's basically all i'm saying, and logically it makes sense, setting aside one's persona beliefs for or against Smith's legitimacy as a prophet of God.

it's a similar logical consideration facing the possible validity Mohammad's claims, as well as Baha'ullah's, and others.

... like Paul's, for instance.

 

[sojourner]

It all comes down to defining what authorative revelation is from above. Why would LDS revelation be as relevant as non-Christian revelation? Do you think the Quran should also be used to define authorative revelation from above in par with the Holy Scriptures, and the Book of Mormon? Why would it be up to you to decide to open and close the gates? Please consider my signature, because the only door that matters is defined by the Biblical Jesus Christ. I personally don't see Katzs and other Mormons to be faithful to the Mormon claim of restoration of apostate Christianity. They too have been heavily influenced by religious pluarlism (many ways to God apart from the Son).

Unfortunately, pluralism was not on the radar for the author in that particular passage of scripture. Righteousness was the issue.
I don't "gatekeep." I fully understand that I am not in charge of the door. But take a close look at your post. If ever there were a door-keeper...
I think that there are lots of writings that are both revelatory and valid witness. The only reason we have a "Bible" is because of the canon, which was developed solely with the intention of its being a list of "things we can read in church."

 

[themadhair]

The only reason we have a "Bible" is because of the canon, which was developed solely with the intention of its being a list of "things we can read in church."

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[challupa]

I don't mind opening the gates for any and letting them play on the playground. Where I run afoul is when they try to take over the playground, call it "theirs" instead of "Christ's," and force everyone to play the same game. I don't see Katz doing that. But I do see some non-Mormon Christians doing it!

well said, that's what I see too. I am really beginning to think that it's time to transcend all religions and just be a loving cohesive society of humans!

 

[challupa]

It all comes down to defining what authorative revelation is from above. Why would LDS revelation be as relevant as non-Christian revelation? Do you think the Quran should also be used to define authorative revelation from above in par with the Holy Scriptures, and the Book of Mormon? Why would it be up to you to decide to open and close the gates? Please consider my signature, because the only door that matters is defined by the Biblical Jesus Christ. I personally don't see Katzs and other Mormons to be faithful to the Mormon claim of restoration of apostate Christianity. They too have been heavily influenced by religious pluarlism (many ways to God apart from the Son).

That is only "your" interpretation of the Bible. It's not necessarily right you know. In fact, you define religion in some of the most unloving and hostile ways I have ever seen imo. I may not be a Christian, but I do believe in love. Do you believe in love and how do you think love should be defined?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Unfortunately, pluralism was not on the radar for the author in that particular passage of scripture. Righteousness was the issue.
I don't "gatekeep." I fully understand that I am not in charge of the door. But take a close look at your post. If ever there were a door-keeper...
I think that there are lots of writings that are both revelatory and valid witness. The only reason we have a "Bible" is because of the canon, which was developed solely with the intention of its being a list of "things we can read in church."

I think the best way to best understand and communicate with you is to get your personal view in regards to the Bible. It does not seem that your view of the Scriptures is the same as my view. Since the Scriptures determines my ultimate source of authority in how God reveals Himself to us, what is your ultimate source of authority in how God reveals Himself to us? I believe Jesus has cleary taught that He is the door. He also taught that many will come in His name that are false.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

That is only "your" interpretation of the Bible. It's not necessarily right you know. In fact, you define religion in some of the most unloving and hostile ways I have ever seen imo. I may not be a Christian, but I do believe in love. Do you believe in love and how do you think love should be defined?

God is love according to His written revelation (Holy Bible). What do you mean by the word love?

 

[themadhair]

I think the best way to best understand and communicate with you is to get your personal view in regards to the Bible.

God is love according to His written revelation (Holy Bible).

I find you apparent lack of self-identity, and your unwillingness to recognise that your view is your (or your church’s) interpretation, to be a little creepy.

 

[challupa]

God is love according to His written revelation (Holy Bible). What do you mean by the word love?

I never asked what God was, I asked what you thought was love "in your words". For me love means trying to walk on this earth as kindly and gently as I can. It means doing the least amount of harm and constantly learning how to do these things better. I honestly don't believe God is like you protray him. I see love to mean unconditional, though I haven't been able to achieve that.