Maybe I don't want to be a Christian any more

[Alceste]

^ This is an example of doing it wrong. Given that it doesn't seem to bear much relevance to the comment it was 'responding' to, and that comment was expressing the thought that maybe such an action may be considered disrespectful for some, I think it says its own story.

My suspicion is that the crucial difference between "doing it right" and "doing it wrong" when it comes to Bible quoting lies in whether or not the poster actually understands what s/he's posting. I've said it before on other threads, so excuse the repetition. The Bible is a very difficult book, and beyond the reading ability of the average fundamentalist. I'm not guessing - I gather this from the way they write, their general antipathy for reason and contemplation, and the extreme simplicity of the books they buy, write and recommend. Also from a passing comment from a friend who is a member of one of these churches, talking about school: "I was always interested in science, but it was challenging. Back then I avoided anything challenging." She never read a single book the whole time I knew her.

For Kathryn, who understands what she's reading, it's not a difficult thing to identify passages that are relevant to the discussion. For CP, who I believe struggles more with the text, it seems he thinks posting ANYTHING will do: even though he doesn't understand it himself it's the holy word of the lord, and so must be relevant to everything, and infallibly correct in every instance.

IMO, it's pointless to keep pointing out that his quotes are irrelevant to the discussion, since it isn't really a choice. He's doing the best he can with a book that is probably very intimidating from the perspective of someone who is not much of a reader.

 

[invisible chzbrgr]

Sorry for the off-topic, but I'm confused... Fish-Hunter is an alt of Christian Pilgrim? Or ...?

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry for the off-topic, but I'm confused... Fish-Hunter is an alt of Christian Pilgrim? Or ...?

Yes, they are one and the same.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

So you open up with an attack and you expect her to act warm and fuzzy?

As I've said on this thread already... those who claim the title "true Christian (tm)" are among the least christian people I've ever met.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
not by their titles ye shall know them.

While you may disagree with her faith, you have no right to judge her standing with God or with Christ. Look to yourself in that regard.

wa:do

Please understand the entire drive behind restoration theology and the LDS Christian Faith. Now consider that with the thread topic that I created. The LDS Christian Faith is all about restoration of the historic Christian Faith which is apostate. With Katz's participation on the thread topic, did she leave historic Christendom (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, and Triune God distinctive) for the restoration movement of the LDS Christian Faith? After-all, the LDS Christian Faith is the new kid on the block in the professing church. Most in historic Christendom do not receive Mormonism as being within Christendom. BTW, I have always posted that I cannot judge Katz's standing with God. Please re-read my postings on that issue before making such an untrue statement.

The Great Apostasy

 

[themadhair]

[FONT=&quot] The LDS Christian Faith is all about restoration of the historic Christian Faith which is apostate. With Katz's participation on the thread topic, did she leave historic Christendom (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, and Triune God distinctive) for the restoration movement of the LDS Christian Faith? [/FONT]

Actually, Christian Pilgrim, this thread isn’t about no longer being a christian. It posed the question of being chastised for not being a christian by arrogant, ignorant and obnoxious christians of a different stripe.

I appreciate your demonstration of such a christian Christian Pilgrim, it really helps highlight what the OP was getting at.

 

[Rakhel]

Actually, Christian Pilgrim, this thread isn’t about no longer being a christian. It posed the question of being chastised for not being a christian by arrogant, ignorant and obnoxious christians of a different stripe.

I appreciate your demonstration of such a christian Christian Pilgrim, it really helps highlight what the OP was getting at.

You forgot egotistical:yes:

 

[Heneni]

I think that a few things have gone awefully pear shaped in this thread. First of all, there seems to have been a violation against Katzpur, making her feel like she wants to dissociate herself from the word 'christian' all together. Perhaps that will bring her relief perhaps not. I would rather say not.

Then we have people standing up for katzpur. Would that bring relief? Maybe...if she felt that at least somebody was 'fighting' in her corner.

At the end of the day, most of us would love to preserve ourselves and our image or reputation. If we find that our brothers and sisters are acting up, we might want to dissociate ourselves from them in an effort to marginalize them so that we dont feel margenalized as a mormon. People who are hurt, hurt right on back.

I think that had jesus given up on the rather bigmouthed peter, who said he would do anything for him, even die with/for him, and then when push came to shove made a rather poor display of loyalty all burnt into the rubber with the sing song of a chicken, then we have to admit, that the worst of us, has a place in 'christiandom'. Jesus came for the lost. That means...the worst of us. And if he was willing to put up with peter, and doubting thomas, and especially wicked sinners, then i suppose we had better make up our minds that our brothers and sisters are in fact going to be rather 'odd'.

I hope that we will come together and realise that we are really the 'lost' who have been found. None of us christians belongs to ourselves anymore, we belong to god, and therefore we are his workmanship and his business. So as long as we let god get on with the business of changing us, let us have patience with the worst of our kind. Besides...we are family.

heneni

 

[McBell]

BTW, I have always posted that I cannot judge Katz's standing with God. Please re-read my postings on that issue before making such an untrue statement.

Now I will flat out call you a liar.
Liar.

Here is where you did judge her standing with God:

Hi Catz,

I'm glad to see your on this thread too. Please share when you left the Christian Faith and decided to become a Mormon Christian instead.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

The older -- and wiser -- I get, and the more I hang out on RF, the more convinced I am that I don't really care whether I'm known as a Christian or not. As a matter of fact, more and more all the time, I'm starting to want to distance myself from people who call themselves "Christians." I'm beginning to understand why non-Christians are so turned off by Christians and by the doctrines they profess. It has taken me a long time to admit this. No one who truly believes in Jesus Christ and worships Him as his Savior and Redeemer wants to be told that He isn't a Christian. That's why we Latter-day Saints get so defensive when we're accused of not being Christians. If we say, "You're wrong. We are Christians," we are forced to defend ourselves against slanderous remarks. If we say, "You're right. We're not Christians," it's as if we have denied everything we stand for.

But who are we really denying it to? I don't need to fall into a man-made category of some kind in order for Jesus Christ to recognize me as His follower. I am just about ready to simply back off and stop trying to be accepted into the club. I don't want to be thought of as a Christian when most of the people who call themselves Christians are so unpleasant and judgmental. I don't want to be associated with them in any way. I'm a Latter-day Saint. I'm a Mormon. I love my Savior with all my heart and believe that when I stand before Him, He will welcome me with open arms, along with my brothers and sisters of all religious (and non-religious) persuasions. Don't even bother referring to me as a Christian (real or fake) any more because I want nothing to do with the Christianity I see all around me.

Well said!

People get so caught up in label-making, they forget what they're actually talking about.

 

[painted wolf]

Please understand the entire drive behind restoration theology and the LDS Christian Faith.

I think I've got a pretty good handle on it thanks.

Now consider that with the thread topic that I created. The LDS Christian Faith is all about restoration of the historic Christian Faith which is apostate. With Katz's participation on the thread topic, did she leave historic Christendom (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, and Triune God distinctive) for the restoration movement of the LDS Christian Faith? After-all, the LDS Christian Faith is the new kid on the block in the professing church. Most in historic Christendom do not receive Mormonism as being within Christendom. BTW, I have always posted that I cannot judge Katz's standing with God. Please re-read my postings on that issue before making such an untrue statement.

You didn't say anything in that post about "historic" christendom. And regardless it would be still be a moot point if you did. Every branch of Christianity claims to be the "true christians (tm)" and that every other branch is somehow got it wrong.
Age of the break up doesn't matter.
You asked why she wasn't a Christian... that is a declaration on her standing with god, regardless of your protestations otherwise.

wa:do

 

[themadhair]

[SIZE=-10]Hmmm…maybe if us godless heathens want to take over the world we can get these different denominations to battle each other to the death leaving the planet there for the taking…..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]Nevermind. Nothing to see here.[/SIZE]

 

[challupa]

[SIZE=-10]Hmmm…maybe if us godless heathens want to take over the world we can get these different denominations to battle each other to the death leaving the planet there for the taking…..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]Nevermind. Nothing to see here.[/SIZE]

Well it's certainly happened before. The early Christians, RCC EOC and gnostic Christians fought long and hard over who had the right to bring their brand of christianity into being the official religion of Rome. There is a quote that Jonathan Kirsch says in his book, The Battle for God, that the pagans got to the point of thinking that they could just stand back and do nothing to get rid of the Christians because they were doing such a good job at killing each other. This rivalry has been going on since day one and its all about "being right" and therefore superior in their eyes.

 

[ChristineES]

I guess you haven't followed our discussions and dialogs together. She cursed at me and didn't care if she would get a warning by the moderators because it was worth it to her. Please see post 55 in context. IMO.. she is really not fighting me personally, but she is fighting biblical truth which (IMO) goes against her personal faith as a Mormon Christian. I personally believe that historic biblical Christianity is not apostate as taught by the Mormon Church. I do not believe in the claims of Joseph Smith and personally believe him to be a false prophet. I have come to that conclusion through prayer, and illumination of the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures.

The problem I see is simple- the RF isn't to go to various Christian denominations to tell them the problems you may see in their theology. You can say you disagree with someone's theology, but to tell them that they are not Christians because of the differences in your theology is going to make people angry- even the sweetest, most benevolent person is going to be pushed too far and say something you consider a curse. That is judging your brother and something Jesus said was a no-no.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

The problem I see is simple- the RF isn't to go to various Christian denominations to tell them the problems you may see in their theology. You can say you disagree with someone's theology, but to tell them that they are not Christians because of the differences in your theology is going to make people angry- even the sweetest, most benevolent person is going to be pushed too far and say something you consider a curse. That is judging your brother and something Jesus said was a no-no.

What are you talking about Christine? I never judged Katz's status before God in any of my postings. I have always called Mormons to be LDS Christians or Mormon Christians. Most Christians who rebuke me for calling Mormons to be Mormon Christians. If you are a historical Christian within Christendom, then in Mormon theology you are apostate. Within Christendom, Mormon Christianity is not usually included as being within Christendom since Mormon Christians do not worship the Triune God. I do not get mad with any of the LDS Christians on this site because their church considers all of historic Christendom to be apostate, or considers me to be apostate. Here is the offical LDS site. I assume that you worship the Triune God, or do you? Within historic Christendom, the rejection of the Triune God is considered heresy.

The Great Apostasy

Christine, what do you think Jesus meant by this?

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” - Jesus Christ

 

[McBell]

What are you talking about Christine? I never judged Katz's status before God in any of my postings.

Still trying to push that lie are you?

Within historic Christendom, the rejection of the Triune God is considered heresy.

Interesting, is it not, that Historical Christians, for the most part, resisted the introduction of the Trinity concept. Augustine had one hell of a time gettig the Trinity concept accepted.

Seems you have opted to pick a particular time in history and not accept that which came before the time you chose. Then you opt to label that particular time as "Historic".

Seems to me that this is a rather devious and dishonest approach.
Now, who is it that is the master of lies...?

The Great Apostasy

Christine, what do you think Jesus meant by this?

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” - Jesus Christ

Where did you find that?
If you found it in the Bible, why is it that you forgot the address?
In fact, you tend to forget the put the address more often than not.
I have been meaning to ask you why.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Christian Pilgrim
The Great Apostasy

Christine, what do you think Jesus meant by this?

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” - Jesus Christ

Where did you find that?
If you found it in the Bible, why is it that you forgot the address?
In fact, you tend to forget the put the address more often than not.
I have been meaning to ask you why.

The chapter and verses are not part of Holy Scripture. They were added later on and the chapter and verses are not consider inspired Scripture.

Passage: John 4 (ESV Bible Online)

 

[J Bryson]

Still trying to push that lie are you?


[/font][/color]
Interesting, is it not, that Historical Christians, for the most part, resisted the introduction of the Trinity concept. Augustine had one hell of a time gettig the Trinity concept accepted.

Seems you have opted to pick a particular time in history and not accept that which came before the time you chose. Then you opt to label that particular time as "Historic".

Seems to me that this is a rather devious and dishonest approach.
Now, who is it that is the master of lies...?


Where did you find that?
If you found it in the Bible, why is it that you forgot the address?
In fact, you tend to forget the put the address more often than not.
I have been meaning to ask you why.

It's John 4:21-24

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

So as you can see from the context, it's not quite what he's making it out to be.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

It's John 4:21-24



So as you can see from the context, it's not quite what he's making it out to be.

Passage: John 4 (ESV Bible Online)

Please explain what you think Jesus meant in John 4:21-24 in context. The proper context for any Scripture is the entire Scriptures. Since you are a Unitarian universalist, please explain the following words of Jesus in red text.

John 14
I Am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.”Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask meanything in my name, I will do it.

 

[McBell]

It's John 4:21-24

Thank you, I think he posted part of the address just before you posted this.

So as you can see from the context, it's not quite what he's making it out to be.

I figured as much, which is what I suspect is the real reason he does not present the address when he presents verses.

Now to go see for myself....

 

[J Bryson]

Thank you, I think he posted part of the address just before you posted this.

We were simulposting.