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Maybe I don't want to be a Christian any more

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
All this warm and loving "Christian fellowship and Bible sharing and rejoicing in the Lord."

You guys are SO concerned and caring for each other.

Just makes me tingle all over.

Do please continue. Don't let a godless heathen detract from your "making a joyful noise unto the Lord!"

:angel2:
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Christianity is not a label, its a lifestyle, and not of the rich and the famous but of the down and outers which god has chosen despite themselves. Unfortunately there is no seperating the name from the lifestyle. I have wanted to seperate myself from the 'label' as well, but i have come to realise that i have only made it one then. Its far more than a label, its my identity, its who i am.
And if you had been told all your life that you weren't really who your claimed to be, how would you feel? For years, I have been told by fundamentalist Christians that I am not a real Christian, but some kind of a fake, wannabe Christian.

You know the first time I ever heard someone tell me I wasn't a Christian? I was five years old. The little neighbor boy (he was six and I had a huge crush on him) came home from going to church for the first time with his parents. I was sitting out on our porch when he stopped by. "I just got home from church," he announced proudly. "I'm a Christian!" "Oh," I said, "so am I." "No you're not," he answered, "You're a Mormon." That was 55 years ago. See, I'm kind of a slow learner. For 55 years, I've been trying to convince people like him that Mormons are Christians -- real Christians.

I've been trying to do that here on RF for four years, and you know what? I bet I haven't managed to convince one single solitary person. Oh, there are some who believe we are, but it wasn't because I kept shoving it down their throats. It was because they are open-minded enough to look beyond the label to see what we Mormons on the forum stand for. The ones who insist that we belong to some weird cult, the ones who believe we worship "a different Jesus," the ones that are convinced we are trying to indoctrinate poor, unknowing Christians with heretical doctrines -- they will believe those things no matter what I could say.

Yes, there are people who are completely 'out there' and call themselves christian. I have no control over that. I cant redefine myself everytime someone pushes me out or lures me in, or embarrasses me. I can sympathize with katzpurs feelings at the moment, but i would say that there is no seperating oneself from the word christian if you want to associate yourself with jesus. That is the point isnt it? The word christian associates us with jesus first and foremost and for that reason, i think that katzpur will come to think as i do on the matter, and be called a christian regardless of others. At least that is my hope.
I disagree with you on this point, Heneni. A few days ago, it suddenly dawned on me that I can very well associate myself with Jesus and yet disassociate myself with the label "Christian." In the early days after Christ's death, His Apostles were not known as "Christians." They were probably just known as followers of the man, Jesus, whom they claimed as their Lord and Master. I can do the same. I can be known as a Latter-day Saint (or Mormon) who follows the man Jesus, my Lord and Master. Why in Heaven's name would I want to be associated with the in-your-face crowd? Anybody who wants to take the time to find out what I believe ought to be able to figure out easily enough that there is nothing I want more than to be associated with Jesus Christ. It's seriously getting to the point where I think it would be easier for me to do that by calling myself a Mormon than by calling myself a Christian.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Anyway, Katz, Dallas, Christine - just so you know, when I think "Christian" (in a positive sense) I think of you guys. How about a round of applause for Christian women! :clap No wonder Paul wanted you guys to zip it in church. ;)
LOL! Alceste, you made my day. Frubals!
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Yeah, when she started this thread I knew exactly who was causing the problem.
Actually, there are several. I think the others are just too embarrassed to be posting on this thread. CP/FH doesn't know enough to be embarrassed.0

Needless to say, I'm joining her ranks.
Welcome. Where two or three are gathered in His name, you know... I guess we're a Church now. :yes:
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
All this warm and loving "Christian fellowship and Bible sharing and rejoicing in the Lord."

You guys are SO concerned and caring for each other.

Just makes me tingle all over.

Do please continue. Don't let a godless heathen detract from your "making a joyful noise unto the Lord!"

:angel2:

You try and make a good impression and in just one thread and in one day, it all falls to pieces. ;) (just kidding)
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
Seriously, has it not occurred to you guys that this is NO different from any other discussion of an emotional subject? Politics, gender, race, etc. Take out a few words here and there and substitute something else and this could be on the Politics board or the Genders Roles board.

There is nothing here in tone that is really specific to xantanity or even religion.

Just some normal humans having a heated discussion about something they feel passionate about.

JC not need. Nor Mohammad. Nor Jehovah.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
I dont know CP, i havent read his posts. Does that matter? What we have here, are christians flogging another christian which apparantly have been verbally flogging others or something like that. If you repay evil with evil all you are is evil. I would say that CP has been rather ill treated in this thread and i dont care what he did in other posts, if i did, i would try and find an excuse to not forgive him, or to keep a grudge. Im happy i havent read anything he said in other threads at least it spares me to have to feel offended in order to feel self-righteous and imagine myself to have the upper hand of forgiveness which i might or might not extend to him, instead i would extend to him my sarcasm and gossip?

And what about Katzpur, when she realised (has she?) that this was turning into a lets give CP a go thread, she did not stop it. WHY? Do we look for opportunity to belittle our brothers, or if not a brother then when our enemy is being attacked do we leave them on the wayside to rot? God have mercy on us!


Heneni
 

McBell

Unbound
I dont know CP, i havent read his posts. Does that matter? What we have here, are christians flogging another christian which apparantly have been verbally flogging others or something like that. If you repay evil with evil all you are is evil. I would say that CP has been rather ill treated in this thread and i dont care what he did in other posts, if i did, i would try and find an excuse to not forgive him, or to keep a grudge. Im happy i havent read anything he said in other threads at least it spares me to have to feel offended in order to feel self-righteous and imagine myself to have the upper hand of forgiveness which i might or might not extend to him, instead i would extend to him my sarcasm and gossip?

And what about Katzpur, when she realised (has she?) that this was turning into a lets give CP a go thread, she did not stop it. WHY? Do we look for opportunity to belittle our brothers, or if not a brother then when our enemy is being attacked do we leave them on the wayside to rot? God have mercy on us!


Heneni
Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth....
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
"I don't know CP, i havent read his posts. Does that matter?"

It is a generally accepted principal that one can only make intelligent and insightful comments on things one has READ. Absent that reading one's pontifications are . . . .questionable?:rolleyes:

And to proceed from that state of self confessed ignorance and make "self righteous" criticims of others who HAVE read the matters under discussion . . . the word hubris springs to mind.:slap:
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
"I don't know CP, i havent read his posts. Does that matter?"

It is a generally accepted principal that one can only make intelligent and insightful comments on things one has READ. Absent that reading one's pontifications are . . . .questionable?:rolleyes:

And to proceed from that state of self confessed ignorance and make "self righteous" criticims of others who HAVE read the matters under discussion . . . the word hubris springs to mind.:slap:

Grace is a wonderful thing. It is not deserved. Mercy is a wonderful thing...it gives the guilty another chance. I dont have to read CP's posts so that i can evaluate whether the man needs grace or mercy. There is no being alive and that includes you, who are not in need of grace and mercy.

And for that reason, i would say that there is absolutely no good enough reason to continue to belittle or stomp on one man simply because the ones doing the stomping thinks they want a sense of 'justice'. Well...if justice is what you want....then justice is what you will get. Are you qualified to throw the first stone? From this thread i can only conclude that the one that needs to have mercy here...is katzpur. If she does not extend mercy to CP or anybody else that ha hurt her, then mercy cannot be extended to her.

I think that in the end it is always better to go for mercy, because tomorrow we wake and feel different about ourselves and our world and those around us. Today we feel alienated, tomorrow we feel better. But if today we dont extend mercy, tomorrow will have little hope for us. Only the frightening prospect of judgement!


Heneni
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Heneni, consider it tough love. If you haven't read his posts, you should. He has no self-esteem, is an idolater of a book and submits the direction of his own heart to the whims of his church leaders, therefore - in the view of most of us - he is separated from God by two degrees (a book, and the people who tell him what it means). His conversation style is abusive, arrogant and alienating online, so I imagine his IRL personality cuts him off from his community in a similar way. When I imagine what his life must be like, well, I think "pretty awful".

So I don't know about the rest of them, but I'm trying to help. It's not helpful to be tolerant of poor behavior.
 

Christian Pilgrim

Active Member
Heneni, consider it tough love. If you haven't read his posts, you should. He has no self-esteem, is an idolater of a book and submits the direction of his own heart to the whims of his church leaders, therefore - in the view of most of us - he is separated from God by two degrees (a book, and the people who tell him what it means). His conversation style is abusive, arrogant and alienating online, so I imagine his IRL personality cuts him off from his community in a similar way. When I imagine what his life must be like, well, I think "pretty awful".

So I don't know about the rest of them, but I'm trying to help. It's not helpful to be tolerant of poor behavior.

IMO...here is my response to the post above.

Thank you for the indirect compliment. Christians should aim to loose all of their self-esteem and replace it with Christ-esteem. The Apostle Paul tells us to put no confidence in our flesh (self-esteem). We are told to trust in the Lord with all of our heart and lean not on own understanding, and He will direct our paths. I know it goes against the flesh to believe that we are not autonomous and self-reliant, but rather we all rely on the daily provisions of Almighty God, even though we may not personally believe it. Why do you think you are able to live another day, do you sustain life as we know it? For those who have not been reconciled to God through the Biblical Jesus Christ, you are in a cosmic rebellion and war against the one True God. According to the Bible, you are His enemy that He will crush. You will eventually loose that war and return to the dust, and resurrected for eternal judgment and punishment. Of course this is my opinion in my reading of the Scriptures. This Forum site is to discuss various religious beliefs and worldviews. I am coming from a Biblical worldview and if you disagree with what I believe God reveals in the Scriptures, your correction is more than welcome. Self-esteem is the reason for the Fall of mankind and is just a word for the continual rebellion against Him. Self-esteem = pride of mankind apart from God. I also believe in tough love. That's why I share the truth in love. The message of the cross will always be an offense for those who are in the flesh. But the message of the cross is the only way to be reconciled to God, and to be saved from His wrath. Ultimately, the cosmic question is "do you want to have peace with God, and be adopted into His eternal family, or do you want to continue to rebel against Him as His enemy that He will crush". This is Biblical revelation. God is love for those who know God through the Lord Jesus Christ. God is your eternal enemy and judge if you are not found united to Christ according to Holy Scripture. Again, if you believe this is not what the Bible reveals, please feel free to discuss why this is not the central message of the Bible for sinful mankind.
 
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MysticPhD

Member
I'm not sure what you are saying, but here is what I think you're saying. God is not wrathful, jealous, hateful or vengeful. He does not punish us. Those charactoristics I just named are human characteristics and because they create negative scenerios when we display any of these characteristics, we get the circumstances because of our actions and these circumstances are not God's. I am not sure though whether you believe in eternal damnation for unbelievers when we die though. Do you?
I'm sorry . . . I took a brief hiatus from posting. I am quite certain that there are negative consequences for failure to develop our spirituality in "love of God and each other." The ambiguity in scripture leaves little room for definitive answers about what that might be or what its duration is. I have my view . . . but it is less certain than most of my other views. It is hard to reconcile God being all in all and coming to save all . . . with God's failure to do so.
 

Christian Pilgrim

Active Member
I'm sorry . . . I took a brief hiatus from posting. I am quite certain that there are negative consequences for failure to develop our spirituality in "love of God and each other." The ambiguity in scripture leaves little room for definitive answers about what that might be or what its duration is. I have my view . . . but it is less certain than most of my other views. It is hard to reconcile God being all in all and coming to save all . . . with God's failure to do so.

Do you think spirituality and worship can be measured by our love for God in Spirit and in truth? Apart from a deep love for God, we are unable to love others in the way God calls us to love others. I think the crippling effect of mankind as a whole is that we truly love "self" over and above our love for God. It seems this Forum Site is justifying my personal right to create God into any way that "I" want Him to be; therefore, my personal image of God can serve me. That is self-esteem and the manifestation of the pride of men. Mankind really doesn't want to know and worship the One True God, because mankind wants to be on the throne to rule and reign. The golden calf is alive and well in the 21st century (IMO).

In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes. - Judges 17:6

Things haven't changed, for we all want to do what is right in our own eyes; therefore we create our own gods (imo).

goldencalf.jpg


This is still the picture reflecting the 21st century.
 
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MysticPhD

Member
God is a wratful God according to the Scriptures. God is also a jealous God too. Please help me understand what you are saying?
These are primitive misunderstandings of God in the OT that Jesus came to correct and display the TRUE NATURE of God unambiguously by His life, teachings and death. Jesus smote no one despite scourging and crucifixion by men (surprising Judas I suspect). 1 John 5:20 (King James Version)

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
 

Christian Pilgrim

Active Member
These are primitive misunderstandings of God in the OT that Jesus came to correct and display the TRUE NATURE of God unambiguously by His life, teachings and death. Jesus smote no one despite scourging and crucifixion by men (surprising Judas I suspect). 1 John 5:20 (King James Version)

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

The true nature of God is revealed equally in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. You will find pictures, types, and foreshadows of the person and work of Christ starting from Genesis 3, and all through the OT. The NT is full of quotes of the OT. The wrath of God and judgment was a major theme for Jesus and His disciples throughout the NT. What do you think the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is all about? Please consider the message of the forerunner of Jesus Christ.

He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? - Luke 3 -John the Baptist

The Judgment at Christ's Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Thes

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. - Matthew records the words of Jesus

God is love. God is also Holy and perfectly just. We can try to domesticate Jesus and create Him the way we want Him to be. But it is impossible to domesticate and tame the Biblical Jesus. What is written is written. It is impossible for God to lie.

But he answered, “It is written,
“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
- Mat 4 (Jesus)
 
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