Flankerl
Well-Known Member
No it doesn't.
Especially not when it's oh so obvious that it was the evil terrorists in the Caucasus.
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Maybe NATO should back down?
No it doesn't.
Especially not when it's oh so obvious that it was the evil terrorists in the Caucasus.
Yes, there are very often discrepancies between the "official version" of events versus what others might say about it. Again, it's a familiar story. I've heard it many times before in regards to events here in the U.S.
It's not surprising if other governments do similar things as our government. It doesn't mean they're innocent by any means, nor did I say that they were.
I was bringing an example brought in a class I attended to explain the reasoning for something which I was asked about here. I am pleased to see that not all Americans turned a blind eye to reality. Some, however, seem to do it more often than not.
It's in my nature (design engineer) to design
solutions....often that no one likes.
(I tend to not consider feelings that most
humans have. They get in the way.)
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
@Augustus said: When you only get to exist to the extent you bow down to your neighbour and do whatever it is that they demand, you are a vassal. You demand that of Ukraine.
You are very quick to demand that others become vassals to appease others, but would not accept that for your own country. That is hypocrisy. Would you tell Modi to bow down to China if they demand it? Or resign if they request it?
They are more militarily powerful than you after all, so refusal would just be poking the dragon. Accept your status as slaves, otherwise you only prolong the suffering.
(and if that is not acceptable to you, don't demand it of others)
Aup. says: I never said bow down to neighbors, I said take their sensitivities into consideration.
No hypocrisy here. India and Modi do not ignore Chinese sensitivities. We do just as much, as we think, is essential (Quad).
Chinese may have more numbers, but it is not that India is weak and Chinese can do whatever they want on our borders. India has enough deterrent (also missiles which can reach all corners of China and some 160 nuclear warheads). We have a nice disciplined, determined army. That is why the Chinese adventure in Ladakh failed. Chinese also understand this.
We are continuing to talk to them. And recently, Chinese have said that India and China are not adversaries. India fully agrees with that.
We do not desire a world-power status (that requires too much work
). We have other concerns (basically economic uplift of our people), but we are slaves to none. We have our own position.
I think China and Vietnam too had territorial differences and the brave people of Vietnam were able to resist them.
You are very quick to demand that others become vassals to appease others, but would not accept that for your own country. That is hypocrisy. Would you tell Modi to bow down to China if they demand it? Or resign if they request it?
They are more militarily powerful than you after all, so refusal would just be poking the dragon. Accept your status as slaves, otherwise you only prolong the suffering.
(and if that is not acceptable to you, don't demand it of others)
Aup. says: I never said bow down to neighbors, I said take their sensitivities into consideration.
No hypocrisy here. India and Modi do not ignore Chinese sensitivities. We do just as much, as we think, is essential (Quad).
Chinese may have more numbers, but it is not that India is weak and Chinese can do whatever they want on our borders. India has enough deterrent (also missiles which can reach all corners of China and some 160 nuclear warheads). We have a nice disciplined, determined army. That is why the Chinese adventure in Ladakh failed. Chinese also understand this.
We are continuing to talk to them. And recently, Chinese have said that India and China are not adversaries. India fully agrees with that.
We do not desire a world-power status (that requires too much work
). We have other concerns (basically economic uplift of our people), but we are slaves to none. We have our own position.I think China and Vietnam too had territorial differences and the brave people of Vietnam were able to resist them.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
@Flankerl said: lol a President who went against the will of his people, amassed a ridiculous amount of wealth, fired on his own people and curiously found shelter in Russia.
and finally deciding to apply for membership of NATO.
Ukranians, US and NATO deliberately provoked Russia. Are you on drugs.
Or they send as many Russian soldiers back in body bags as possible.
And then what? Installation of a Russian puppet on the throne?
Aup. says: I am not against Ukranians selecting their own President, but I do not think they made a correct choice in electing populist Zelenskyy in their Euromaidan euphoria. He landed them in a war.
Yeah, deciding to be a member of NATO was not a good choice as the later events proved.
I never use drugs. Yes, the decision to join NATO provoked Russia. Body bags are part of a war, no problem about that.
No, not a puppet of Russia, but a person wiser than Zelenskyy.
and finally deciding to apply for membership of NATO.
Ukranians, US and NATO deliberately provoked Russia. Are you on drugs.
Or they send as many Russian soldiers back in body bags as possible.
And then what? Installation of a Russian puppet on the throne?
Aup. says: I am not against Ukranians selecting their own President, but I do not think they made a correct choice in electing populist Zelenskyy in their Euromaidan euphoria. He landed them in a war.
Yeah, deciding to be a member of NATO was not a good choice as the later events proved.
I never use drugs. Yes, the decision to join NATO provoked Russia. Body bags are part of a war, no problem about that.
No, not a puppet of Russia, but a person wiser than Zelenskyy.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
@Estro Fwlino said: Since mainstream sources are biased...I am exclusively relying on Indian media in English, lately.
Aup. Says: That is probably correct because we have no axe to grind.
However, Indian media also has its own biases. There is government-supporting media and government-opposing media. I go by my own analysis.
Aup. Says: That is probably correct because we have no axe to grind.
However, Indian media also has its own biases. There is government-supporting media and government-opposing media. I go by my own analysis.
Augustus
…
Nice euphemism "sensitivities". Now replace "sensitivities with what Russia actually objects to
1. Ukraine choosing its own leader
2. Ukraine wanting to choose which trading bloc to belong to
3. Ukraine wanting to take steps to secure its safety from a hostile and powerful neighbour
4. Ukraine choosing its own identity and future direction as opposed to being part of the "Russian sphere of influence"
You seem to think Russia has the right to demand these from other countries.
Unless you would accept foreign powers demanding these for your own country (which you don't), it is rank hypocrisy to demand them of others, no matter how much you try to sugar coat Russia's actions.
Wion mainly. But they are much better than ours, trust me.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?
It's not up to you, me or Putin to determine who Ukrainians vote for in their democratic elections.
Do you get that?
Furthermore the "populist" thing about Zelensky has always been that he stood against the corruption build under the pro-Russian regime.
Wow that's horrible. Imagine being against corruption. Imagine a people voting someone into office who does something against it.
Wow that's so bad.
And no EU membership is not populist. It's literally the wish of the vast majority of Ukrainians of both voting age and before.
Nothing populist about it. If it were any wish of the populace was populist and a politician would have to go against it.
Putin also already said why he attacked Ukraine: Nazis, Zelensky is a drug user and Ukraine is not a real country, it's actually part of Russia which Lenin gave away and Putin is here to right that wrong.
That's your side btw.
And Russia already said that they are going to put a puppet as President.
It's not up for debate.
Absolutely foolish of you.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Russia may not have a right (just like US had no right to invade Iraq), but there are lines between nations (not those which form boundaries) which should not be crossed. Ukraine, unfortunately crossed that line. If Ukraine was lead by a person wiser than Zelenskyy, it could perhaps have avoided the war. One should not thump his chest before a bully.
Augustus
…
You keep hiding behind weasel words that obscure the true meaning.
What "line" did it cross that you would accept being enforced on your country by China?
1. Ukraine choosing its own leader
2. Ukraine wanting to choose which trading bloc to belong to
3. Ukraine wanting to take steps to secure its safety from a hostile and powerful neighbour
4. Ukraine choosing its own identity and future direction as opposed to being part of the "Russian sphere of influence"
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, my views are ridiculous. I get that very clearly. They elected Zelenskyy and Zelenskyy got them into a war.
I do not know if corruption ended with coming of Zelenskyy. It was the responsibility of the leader to have saved them from a war.
What Putin says is war propaganda. They will (if they win) certainly like to remove Zelenskyy and bring someone else in his place, a person with whom they could talk business, whether a puppet (Yanukovych) or some one else.
I have already accepted that my views are ridiculous.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
No Putin got them into a war.
Russia mounted an invasion.
This is not up for debate.
Prior to that Ukraine was about as close to joining NATO or the EU as I am to becoming a millionaire.
Which is just a roundabout way of saying "Install a President who does what Russia wants".
Ah yes war propaganda. Except that Putin has repeated these views for close to a decade.
Basic Russian Nationalism alá Dugin.
Your indifference to the self determination of the Ukrainian people is noted.
You are nothing more than a Russian propaganda tool.
Was told by spirit first about a year ago that some people in NATO or Biden admin wanted this war.
So i guess it was planned. They must have known that it was a very red line for Moscow. I don´t see how sending weapons there will result in anything else than more death.
But Putin probably want to avoid hurting Ukrainians since as i understand many Russians and Ukrainians know each other.
I am on neither Russias or Nato´s side. Just want to avoid people dying.
So how does this benefit Bidens handlers? They can have the middle east for themselves? Russias collapse?
So i guess it was planned. They must have known that it was a very red line for Moscow. I don´t see how sending weapons there will result in anything else than more death.
But Putin probably want to avoid hurting Ukrainians since as i understand many Russians and Ukrainians know each other.
I am on neither Russias or Nato´s side. Just want to avoid people dying.
So how does this benefit Bidens handlers? They can have the middle east for themselves? Russias collapse?
How many of our leaders have complained about the forced injections, nazi passports or Covid camps in Australia for example? Anyone? They are just as authoritarian unfortunately.
Actually, the only boundary line crossed was
by an invading Russian military into Ukraine.
Let Ukrainians rain death down upon the Russkies.
Well...Soros too with its NGOs accused Orbán of corruption...so it is a common pattern.
A shared strategy.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
It is a very believable conspiracy though.
Check this:
"Suspicions deepened when a fifth bomb was discovered in the basement of a building in Ryazan, a city southeast of Moscow, and those who had placed it turned out to be not Chechen terrorists but agents of the FSB. After these agents were arrested by local police, Nikolai Patrushev, the head of the FSB, said that the bomb had been a fake and that it had been planted in Ryazan as part of a training exercise. The bomb, however, tested positive for hexogen, the explosive used in the four successful apartment bombings. An investigation of the Ryazan incident was published in the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, and the public’s misgivings grew so widespread that the FSB agreed to a televised meeting between its top officials and residents of the affected building. The FSB in this way tried to demonstrate its openness, but the meeting was a disaster: It left the overwhelming impression that the incident in Ryazan was a failed political provocation.
Three days after the broadcast, Putin was elected. Attention to the Ryazan incident faded, and it began to appear that the bombings would become just the latest in the long list of Russia’s unsolved crimes."
‘The Bloody Czar’: Did a False-Flag Operation Fuel Putin’s Rise?
And Putin used to be a FSB director back then.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
You really like the Lega Nord don't you? You really like Matteo Salvini don't you?
How do you cope with your Duce being called out all over Europe for being a Russian sockpuppet?
Oups that's awkward.
People like you are the biggest enemies of Europe.
Always touting about the Nation being so important to them, the EU is so evil, the evil Liberalism Soros spreads.
And once you look under their pants you see Putins hand reaching all the way inside.
"Mayor: I have personal note to Mr senator Salvini. I have gift for you in order to take it into refugee center. We need to see what your friend Putin have done. What person - you call your friend - have done to this people who are fleeing here in number of 50 000 a day. We will go together (with Salvini) to refugee center and the border ONLY if you would dress this T-shirt. You are welcome. NO RESPECT FOR YOU"