Men boxing women??- Int'l boxing organization starting transgender league over 'safety' concerns

[Aštra’el]

The only thing I have disagreed with is people calling transgender females "men".

I called them “males”. “Sex and gender are two different things”, correct? Their gender is woman, their sex is male. Their sex will never change.

In many places, it might not matter. In sports, it does. On the field, in the arena, the gym, the track, the ring, when competing against females… it does matter.

I may not be so open on RF about the things I’ve done with my life, but I will say this. Unlike many here, I am directly affected by this. People close to me are directly affected by this. Transwomen are males. That is the reality. Affirm their gender all you want, but their sex is immutable. These males are competing against females in a division intended to exclude males.

 

[We Never Know]

I wasn't asking you to call a trans woman a cis woman. If anything, I was just asking you to call a trans woman a trans woman.

If I feel and identify as a cat, will I be accepted as a cat.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

If feel and identify as a cat, will I be accepted as a cat.

Sure, what's your pronouns for it?

 

[We Never Know]

Sure, what's your pronouns for it?

Tom or Queen(molly). Cats have two sexes... Male or female... Just like humans.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I called them “males”. “Sex and gender are two different things”, correct? Their gender is woman, their sex is male. Their sex will never change.

In many places, it might not matter. In sports, it does. On the field, in the arena, the gym, the track, the ring, when competing against females… it does matter.

I may not be so open on RF about the things I’ve done with my life, but I will say this. Unlike many here, I am directly affected by this. People close to me are also directly affected by this. Transwomen are males. That is the reality. Affirm their gender all you want, but their sex is immutable. These males are competing against females in a division intended to exclude males.

There are medical procedures that change sex, hence the term "sex reassignment surgery." They're not perfect and don't fully match being born a specific sex, but they can cause enough change to offset a lot of the advantages that males have over females in some sports.

I also find it interesting that you want everyone else to note that this directly affects you even though you rarely ever seem to reciprocate. Do you care how your proposal to ban trans women from all women's sports might affect them? Do you care how your vote does, or your support for various things that directly and unequivocally harm others (e.g., anti-LGBT legislation)?

Accommodation is a two-way street. You don't get to demand that everyone listen to you as if you were an authority on sports because this supposedly directly affects you while consistently and conspicuously minimizing and ignoring others' well-being in what you say and what you claim to do.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If I feel and identify as a cat, will I be accepted as a cat.

There are decades of research and established science demonstrating that gender identity is very different from what you're describing above. It would be similar only if millions of people reported that they identified as cats, scientific findings validated their identity, and medical procedures could change their bodies to match their identity as cats.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Tom or Queen(molly). Cats have two sexes... Male or female... Just like humans.

Some lions exhibit transgender traits. I posted a thread on this around 2020, hoping I can find it.

 

[We Never Know]

There are medical procedures that change sex, hence the term "sex reassignment surgery." They're not perfect and don't fully match being born a specific sex, but they can cause enough change to offset a lot of the advantages that males have over females.

I also find it interesting that you want everyone else to note that this directly affects you even though you rarely ever seem to reciprocate. Do you care how your proposal to ban trans women from all women's sports might affect them? Do you care how your vote does, or your support for various things that directly and unequivocally harm others (e.g., siding with Russia against Ukraine and anti-LGBT legislation)?

Accommodation is a two-way street. You don't get to demand that everyone listens to you as if you were an authority on sports because this supposedly directly affects you while consistently and conspicuously minimizing and ignoring others' well-being in what you say and what you claim to do.

There are medical procedures that change the age we look but regardless we are still the same age.
A surgery doesn't change who, what or when we were born.

 

[We Never Know]

Some lions exhibit transgender traits. I posted a thread on this around 2020, hoping I can find it.

And dogs hump the legs of humans, chickens, or whatever. Many animal species hump whats availible at the time. What does that prove?
There are humans that have sex with horses, cows, sheep, etc. Does that mean those people are horses, cows and sheep?

 

[Debater Slayer]

There are medical procedures that change the age we look but regardless we are still the same age.
A surgery doesn't change who, what or when we were born.

Such surgeries try to bring our appearance closer to a specific age, but they don't address any other age-related biological changes, such as the decrease in strength, poorer eyesight, etc.

On the other hand, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery affect most of the body to bring it closer to that of the other sex. As I said, they're not perfect, but they have still saved many lives.

 

[SomeRandom]

There are medical procedures that change the age we look but regardless we are still the same age.
A surgery doesn't change who, what or when we were born.

I thought that we were able to identify trans people using brain scans these days, no?
Like how is that not biological in nature to some degree?

I dunno given that the distribution of sex organs (both internal and indeed external) is more like a spectrum in our species rather than a strict binary (intersex conditions, hermaphroditism, pseudomites and everything in between being potential outcomes naturally occurring in humans) I don’t see how the idea that someone can identify as the opposite gender is that far fetched.

Ahh also not every “born female” necessarily has ovaries, fun fact. Unless you consider people with Swyer Syndrome male, due to them being born with XY chromosomes and external gonads. Though they are also born with external and some internal female sex organs, so I mean

Lol biology be weird I guess

For reference
Research on the Transgender Brain: What You Should Know – Cleveland Clinic
Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity
Swyer syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics

 

[Subduction Zone]

Such surgeries try to bring our appearance closer to a specific age, but they don't address any other age-related biological changes, such as the decrease in strength, poorer eyesight, etc.

On the other hand, hormone therapy and sex reaasignment surgery affect most of the body to bring it closer to that of the other sex. As I said, they're not perfect, but they have still saved many lives.

I do not understand why so many cannot understand that being trans is not a choice. I don't know about you, but I would not choose to be rejected by not only a huge percentage of the straight population, but also a fair percentage of the gay population. This is about the one area, sports of the combat sort where being born male can make a huge difference, this is one of the few areas where I will say that the trans people cannot compete as "females". There was a mixed martial artist that was trans that would devastate her opponents. She had too much of an unfair advantage from being born and raised male. Hormone treatments were not enough.

 

[We Never Know]

Such surgeries try to bring our appearance closer to a specific age, but they don't address any other age-related biological changes, such as the decrease in strength, poorer eyesight, etc.

On the other hand, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery affect most of the body to bring it closer to that of the other sex. As I said, they're not perfect, but they have still saved many lives.

This person identifies as a tiger. Had multiple surgeries, dental implants, etc to be a tiger...... Does that make him a tiger??? Yes or no?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I do not understand why so many cannot understand that being trans is not a choice. I don't know about you, but I would not choose to be rejected by not only a huge percentage of the straight population, but also a fair percentage of the gay population. This is about the one area, sports of the combat sort where being born male can make a huge difference, is once of the where I will say that the trans people cannot compete as "females". There was a mixed martial artist that was trans that would devastate her opponents. She had too much of an unfair advantage from being born and raised male. Hormone treatments were not enough.

I definitely don't think there's an easy solution to this, but I do believe that combat sports are an especially precarious area because of the risk of serious injury if one competitor has too much of an advantage over another.

As for accepting that being trans is not a choice, I suppose we could ask a similar question about the belief that being gay is a choice, which is still a very popular misconception in many parts of the world. It seems to me that ideology and upbringing, among other things, can really cloud objective assessment of such things.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This person identifies as a tiger. Had multiple surgeries, dental implants, etc...... Does that make him a tiger??? Yes or no?

View attachment 70009

No, for two reasons:

1) Being a tiger isn't an identity. On the other hand, gender is, according to current medical consensus. Being a man or a woman is therefore different from being a tiger.

2) The degree to which the person in the picture resembles a tiger is far smaller than that to which a lot of trans people look like the sex they transitioned to. For example, this is Hunter Schafer, who is a trans woman:

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

2) The degree to which the person in the picture resembles a tiger is far smaller than that to which a lot of trans people look like the sex they transitioned to. For example, this is Hunter Schafer, who is a trans woman:

Actually, that may not be the best argument to bring up. The hormones will make one more feminine. But I'd say she isn't the norm exactly. Though you can get better results, and closer to hers, in general, by transitioning before puberty hits.

 

[We Never Know]

No, for two reasons:

1) Being a tiger isn't an identity. On the other hand, gender is, according to current medical consensus. Being a man or a woman is therefore different from being a tiger.

2) The degree to which the person in the picture resembles a tiger is far smaller than that to which a lot of trans people look like the sex they transitioned to. For example, this is Hunter Schafer, who is a trans woman:

Which is no different than a cross dresser... Accept they think they are female,, where as a cross dresser knows its just.a role being played. Tomorrow morning they both well stand when they pee.

 

[Aštra’el]

This is about the one area, sports of the combat sort where being born male can make a huge difference, this is one of the few areas where I will say that the trans people cannot compete as "females". There was a mixed martial artist that was trans that would devastate her opponents. She had too much of an unfair advantage from being born and raised male. Hormone treatments were not enough.

I might have worded it differently, but at least we can agree on this.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Actually, that may not be the best argument to bring up. The hormones will make one more feminine. But I'd say she isn't the norm exactly. Though you can get better results, and closer to hers, in general, by transitioning before puberty hits.

That's a fair point, although I was just addressing the part about appearance and giving a particularly clear example to contrast the photo of the "tiger-man." The first point in my post is also about why biology is only one part of the equation when talking about transitioning.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Which is no different than a cross dresser... Accept they think they are female,, where as a cross dresser knows its just.a role being played.

Crossdressing is an entirely different thing. As you said, it's often just a show. Gender identity and gender dysphoria are not.

This might be useful to elaborate on how gender dysphoria is a very real thing that has nothing to do with mere crossdressing or identifying as a tiger:

Gender dysphoria