Men boxing women??- Int'l boxing organization starting transgender league over 'safety' concerns

[jbg]

Do you think that a trans female should fight a cis female?

To the contrary.

This reminds me of my personal Jack London favorite book, White Fang. The protagonist is a dog/wolf hybrid named, appropriately, White Fang. White Fang was bought from Native Americans (called First Nations in Canada) by a person who used the dog as a fighter, "Beauty" Smith. White Fang was "deputized" to fight with just about every dog or wolf that could be found. The dog put in to fight him was invariably ripped to piece, to the wild cheering of drunken crowds. Finally a bulldog was launched into the pen, who grabbed White Fang's throat. When White Fang was almost throttled and near death, a decent citizen, Weedon Scott and his assistant Matt. come to the rescue.

When Weedon Scott forcibly separates the bulldog that is throttling a wolf-dog named "White Fang" Mr. Smith says, "I've got my rights....That dog is mint (sic)," to which Mr. Scott replies "Correct....A man's got his rights. But you're not a man, You're a beast." They then kicked the offending fight artist and sent the fight promoter sprawling, and then separated the animals and nursed White Fang back to health.While it was a childhood or young adult novel it illustrates what people should do. Allowing a fight between a male who considers himself a female, and a female, is not what people should do.

 

[jbg]

With careful testing to ensure physical equivalence, anyone could engage in any sport with anyone else, regardless of gender. Leaving skill and tenacity to determine the winner.

The point is that we can no longer just use gender to decide who can compete with whom, anymore. Those days are past. Nowadays, we are going to have to generate and employ more precise metrics to decide that. Once we all get over the whining and complaining, it won't be that difficult.

Another way to make sure all business is awkward, cumbersome and that nothing happens.

 

[PureX]

How can you measure these? People could just underperform in speed tests to get easier fights.

Who is paying for this at amateur level?

who is handicapping based on differences in muscle type, bone density etc.?

And how do you create meaningful categories to fight in like middleweight or heavyweight?

Far from being foolish, sex and weight with a bit of common sense works pretty well.

Can I ask if you have much interest in sports? These kind of solutions are economically, logistically and scientifically bad, and also terrible from a sporting perspective too.

You're trying way to hard to make it difficult. Sports is a billion dollar industry with all kinds of ways of measuring strength, speed, agility, size, weight, and so on. We don't need or want EXACT equality. Just a good general classing to keep the sport competitive. The competitor's genitals or age was always a silly way to determine who competes against whom.

 

[PureX]

Another way to make sure all business is awkward, cumbersome and that nothing happens.

Like I said. Once you all stop whining and complaining it will be quite easy to class competition according to more reasonable criteria than genitalia.

 

[Augustus]

You're trying way to hard to make it difficult. Sports is a billion dollar industry with all kinds of ways of measuring strength, speed, agility, size, weight, and so on. We don't need or want EXACT equality. Just a good general classing to keep the sport competitive.

So you have no idea whatsoever how it would work but are just, incorrectly, assuming it’s easy to measure these things objectively in a manner that can’t be manipulated while also making the error that professional sport is simply awash with money and also failing to take into account amateur sport.

Every time someone promotes these ridiculous magical pipe dream egalitarian solutions it’s someone who doesn’t have the first clue about sports or any interest in them.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Would you legally require this "woman" (Chaz Bono)
to use the same bathroom as young girls?

Would you legally require Laverne Cox to use the
same public lavatories as other "men"?

I see a big problem with defining sex as what's
assigned at birth without considering subsequent
changes. And of course, what should be done
with intersex people, who could appear either
way, but are wrongly assigned at birth?

How do the Bible, Koran, & Torah address
these complexities?

Any doctor can tell by the bone structure what a person's natural sex is.

Also dropping the britches and looking at whatcha got would and should determine what bathroom should be used.

It's pretty simple and straightforward.

Unless of course, like in Russia, both sexes use the same facilities together. There's a novel idea.

 

[Nakosis]

Would you legally require this "woman" (Chaz Bono)
to use the same bathroom as young girls?

Would you legally require Laverne Cox to use the
same public lavatories as other "men"?

I see a big problem with defining sex as what's
assigned at birth without considering subsequent
changes. And of course, what should be done
with intersex people, who could appear either
way, but are wrongly assigned at birth?

How do the Bible, Koran, & Torah address
these complexities?

I would, until age 18 keep the bathroom separate for the biological sexes.

After that, maybe not so important.

 

[Revoltingest]

Any doctor can tell by the bone structure what a person's natural sex is.

Would you post doctors at every bathroom?
And give them authority to give a complete
physical?

Also dropping the britches and looking at whatcha got would and should determine what bathroom should be used.

That won't work on fully transitioned people.

It's pretty simple and straightforward.

To people who are pretty simple.

Unless of course, like in Russia, both sexes use the same facilities together. There's a novel idea.

In Russia, bathrooms use people.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're trying way to hard to make it difficult. Sports is a billion dollar industry with all kinds of ways of measuring strength, speed, agility, size, weight, and so on. We don't need or want EXACT equality. Just a good general classing to keep the sport competitive. The competitor's genitals or age was always a silly way to determine who competes against whom.

Feminists might oppose this. I remember how John McEnroe once commented that Serena Williams would probably lose to any of the top 700 Men's players. That caused all sorts of fury. But what people forgot was that when Serena was in her prime she lost to a man who was rated 203 in the world at the time:

Serena Williams once challenged men's player at Australian Open


It was a friendly match ,but it was not even close.

 

[PureX]

Feminists might oppose this. I remember how John McEnroe once commented that Serena Williams would probably lose to any of the top 700 Men's players. That caused all sorts of fury. But what people forgot was that when Serena was in her prime she lost to a man who was rated 203 in the world at the time:

Serena Williams once challenged men's player at Australian Open

It was a friendly match ,but it was not even close.

Anyone can win or lose to anyone at any time if their relatively equal, physically. What gender they are is irrelevant. This is what we need to embrace, now, as those gender designations are no longer going to be sensibly applicable.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm all for trans rights, but MtoF's having a significant physical advantage is an objective fact.

 

[jbg]

Like I said. Once you all stop whining and complaining it will be quite easy to class competition according to more reasonable criteria than genitalia.

Why alter things that work? Will you pay for the grand experiment and then making everything right?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow, all the stupid, offensive **** said in this thread isn't even worth the energy it takes to read it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Wow, all the stupid, offensive **** said in this thread isn't even worth the energy it takes to read it.

Are you referring to the arguments that misgender trans people or to any of the responses to them? It's unclear what you have in mind with the above post.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Anyone can win or lose to anyone at any time if their relatively equal, physically. What gender they are is irrelevant. This is what we need to embrace, now, as those gender designations are no longer going to be sensibly applicable.

The problem is that by almost any standard women in competitions would be overwhelmed by men. The prize money for a tournament involving the people that were not in the top 500 in the world would not get much attention. The prize money would be much much smaller than the money that the top 100 would make. And none of the top 100 would be women om tennis at least.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Are you referring to the arguments that misgender trans people or to any of the responses to them? It's unclear what you have in mind with the above post.

The former, obviously. Why would I agree that I'm a cross dresser and should use the women's room? Lmao

 

[Subduction Zone]

The former, obviously. Why would I agree that I'm a cross dresser and should use the women's room? Lmao

It might be funny once. But like all jokes if told all of the time it would go flat.

But I would love to see you go into one with your beard in a state that tried to enact such foolishness. Again, funny once,, but after that it would eventually get boring.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The former, obviously. Why would I agree that I'm a cross dresser and should use the women's room? Lmao

I don't like assuming without asking, but I definitely think that equating trans people to crossdressers is extremely problematic and minimizes gender dysphoria.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't like assuming without asking, but I definitely think that equating trans people to crossdressers is extremely problematic and minimizes gender dysphoria.

It's just stupid, too. There's a clear difference. I've known cross dressers and have nothing in common with them in terms of a shared experience in terms of gender identity and how it's approached. There's a clear psychological difference between them and transsexual women, as well. There are some male transvestites who do transition, but that's a known thing and has been studied before. They're called autogynephiles. They essentially get off on the idea of themselves as women. They're not transsexuals, but are a type of transvestite and it stems from a sexual fetish (as with transvestism in general), whereas transsexualism has nothing to do with a sexual fetish. There used to be more of a community for those people, apart from the trans community, but that seems to have collapsed and now we're idiotically all thrown in together.

Autogynephilia: an underappreciated paraphilia - PubMed.

 

[Augustus]

Anyone can win or lose to anyone at any time if their relatively equal, physically. What gender they are is irrelevant. This is what we need to embrace, now, as those gender designations are no longer going to be sensibly applicable.

The problem is that men and women are not relatively equal physically, and there is no magic formula you can apply to make them so.

There is no magic scientific or technological solution that measure "sporting ability" and pretending there is not “sensibly applicable”, it is just a comforting illusion that blames other people for the problem so avoids the need to accept there is no easy solution that is fair to all involved.

The issue boil down to a value judgement about whether the right of transwomen to play in women's sporting competitions are more important than protecting fairness in the female sporting category. You want to sit on the fence and pretend we can get a perfectly fair solution. It's well intentioned, but disconnected from reality.

In the unlikely situation that some wonder technology was invented to measure “sporting ability”, it still wouldn’t help in most sports unless you radically changed the way they are played at both pro and amateur levels.

Now there are male and female football World Cups. Even if you created 10 "skill class" World Cups (whatever that would mean, and which is a ridiculous idea anyway as it destroys what makes the WC special), they would all be played by men.

So the 3 main problems with your argument:

1. It's impossible with current tech, and will continue to be for a significant time
2. It would destroy many women's sports
3. It would destroy the spectacle and thus economic model for pros and would create severe practical and administrative issues for amateur sports

This isn't a problem with fine tuning the details, it is simply a terrible "solution".

I know you aren't the first to say all this, but for me, it is genuinely one of the worst solutions to a real problem I've ever heard. It puts ideology and wishful thinking above every practical aspect of the problem and shows both contempt for the aspect of society being modified (sports) and a complete unwillingness to even make the slightest effort to understand the problem as it really exists.

Like it or not sports are important, and thus solutions proposed by people with no interest in them are probably not going to be very effective.