Men in the West are dressed in full; women are dressed half , quarter or less

[Alceste]

What if the cencorship of tasteful nudity (as in Renaissance art) is offensive to some?

Then which offended party should be appeased: those offended by the nudity or those offended by the censorship?

Clearly only half the pictures should be censored in such a situation. It's win-win!

 

[Alceste]

Spoiler: caution - art is offensive to some people

 

[FearGod]

Once again it's all about the viewers immodesty not the woman's.

You "evaluate" her; therefore she must be immodest when you are the one ogling and obsessing enough to pass judgement.

I'm curious... what happens if you see a woman on the beach in a swimsuit then see her later in a pair of pants and a long sleeved shirt? Does her "modesty" change at your whim or is "modesty" a set value?

wa:do

i am already ill-at-ease to express my feelings or opinions because of the mockery which i used to recieve on this thread.,anyway,i'll reply your question according to my sole sincere feelings.

seeing a woman swimming or walking on a beach with a swimsuit won't let me think of her as immodest,but i'll avoid looking at her and move a little bit away to give her more space of freedom.

As i said in my previous posts that its up to her what she wants to wear,she is the one to evaluate her own dress as modest or immodest,but i agree with you and doing it myself that men should avoid looking to women a stupid look similar to the one we have seen in the candid camera.

i ain't evaluating women's modesty but evaluating the garment itself at least according to men's eyes.,but i am always misunderstood,maybe because of my english language.

 

[jasonwill2]

I know. Who knew that a glance of a boobie would cause severe and irreparable psychological damage to an underage child?

Babies suck on boobies, so I really don't see the big deal.

Those who are offended by censorship should be appeased. Cause that's the party I belong to. That's why.

I support this amendment for the above reasons.

 

[Father Heathen]

Babies suck on boobies, so I really don't see the big deal.

Moral mothers at least cover their baby's eyes while they feed.

 

[painted wolf]

i am already ill-at-ease to express my feelings or opinions because of the mockery which i used to recieve on this thread.,anyway,i'll reply your question according to my sole sincere feelings.

seeing a woman swimming or walking on a beach with a swimsuit won't let me think of her as immodest,but i'll avoid looking at her and move a little bit away to give her more space of freedom.

As i said in my previous posts that its up to her what she wants to wear,she is the one to evaluate her own dress as modest or immodest,but i agree with you and doing it myself that men should avoid looking to women a stupid look similar to the one we have seen in the candid camera.

i ain't evaluating women's modesty but evaluating the garment itself at least according to men's eyes.,but i am always misunderstood,maybe because of my english language.

I try not to mock... I don't always succeed, but I try.

Thank you for answering the question, it helped me understand your position much better. :yes:

wa:do

 

[FearGod]

I try not to mock... I don't always succeed, but I try.

Thank you for answering the question, it helped me understand your position much better. :yes:

wa:do

Thank you for understanding what i had trying to explain and i may add.

Woman is a wonderful thing,we shouldn't just think of her as a sex object showing her boobs..etc even as an art in a museum or an adv in tv and magazines.

Woman is my mother and your mother,she is the soft heart and the delicated one.

One song which i really like telling a story of a young man who was angry one day while talking with his mother and after a while he got a phone call that she is in the hospital,he was shocked and start to remember how kind she was with him while he was a child and he drove fast to see her in the hospital and another shock that he went to a wrong room thinking she was dead,but then he found out that she is still alive.

That is the woman to me,to you and to everyone of us,she is a great mother,and just think how many great people were so because of their great mothers such as Thomas Edison which i really admire the good works which he achieved.

[youtube]vH9jzxQcVXU[/youtube]
My Mother(Ya Ummi) - English Subtitles - YouTube

 

[paarsurrey]

That western media generally portrays women as sexual objects and women are more likely to be judged on appearances than men are.

Which sucks.

I agree with you.

I think it is true; women should have confidence in them and they should get dressed in full like most men do to prove that they are equally intelligent as the men are and they are not portrayed as sexual objects in the West; they should not be judged on their appearances but on their merits and qualities.

This is my opinion; and of course others could differ with me.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I agree with you.

I think it is true; women should have confidence in them and they should get dressed in full like most men do to prove that they are equally intelligent as the men are and they are not portrayed as sexual objects in the West; they should not be judged on their appearances but on their merits and qualities.

This is my opinion; and of course others could differ with me.

I don't see what intelligence has to do with this.

And "to prove that they are equally intelligent as men" seems to me as an implication that women are assumed by default to be of inferior intelligence to men, which I think is a largely inaccurate assumption.

 

[Father Heathen]

I agree with you.

I think it is true; women should have confidence in them and they should get dressed in full like most men do to prove that they are equally intelligent as the men are and they are not portrayed as sexual objects in the West; they should not be judged on their appearances but on their merits and qualities.

This is my opinion; and of course others could differ with me.

How does how they dress "prove" that they're equally intelligent? Maybe men shouldn't judge women by how they dress to prove that they are equally intelligent as the women?

 

[beenie]

...women should have confidence in them and they should get dressed in full like most men do to prove that they are equally intelligent as the men are and they are not portrayed as sexual objects in the West; they should not be judged on their appearances but on their merits and qualities.

How's this?

...men should have confidence in them and they should get dressed in less like most women do to prove that they are equally intelligent as the women are and they are not portrayed as sexual objects in the West; they should not be judged on their appearances but on their merits and qualities.



Seriously, women shouldn't have to "prove" their intelligence to society any more than men do. I didn't know IQ points came with clothing. Does silk make you smarter than cotton?

 

[painted wolf]

I agree with you.

I think it is true; women should have confidence in them and they should get dressed in full like most men do to prove that they are equally intelligent as the men are and they are not portrayed as sexual objects in the West; they should not be judged on their appearances but on their merits and qualities.

This is my opinion; and of course others could differ with me.

Why don't you start.... stop treating her as a sexual object and judging her intelligence by the cloths she wears but on her merits and qualities. :tsk:

Why should a woman have to dress like a man to be seen as intelligent.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Thank you for understanding what i had trying to explain and i may add.

Woman is a wonderful thing,we shouldn't just think of her as a sex object showing her boobs..etc even as an art in a museum or an adv in tv and magazines.

Woman is my mother and your mother,she is the soft heart and the delicated one.

One song which i really like telling a story of a young man who was angry one day while talking with his mother and after a while he got a phone call that she is in the hospital,he was shocked and start to remember how kind she was with him while he was a child and he drove fast to see her in the hospital and another shock that he went to a wrong room thinking she was dead,but then he found out that she is still alive.

That is the woman to me,to you and to everyone of us,she is a great mother,and just think how many great people were so because of their great mothers such as Thomas Edison which i really admire the good works which he achieved.

[youtube]vH9jzxQcVXU[/youtube]
My Mother(Ya Ummi) - English Subtitles - YouTube

My mother is a wonderful person, kind and caring.... but about as delicate as a piece of granite.

In my opinion it's just as bad to put a woman on a pedestal as it is to think of her as a sex object. In both cases you are making her an object and not seeing her has a human being.

wa:do

 

[Bismillah]

Manufacturing "desire" is not manufacturing "need" or "want"... though you could argue for "want". I may need clothing and I may want to look presentable but I do not need a particular brand... I may desire a particular brand but that does not mean that I need it.

Obviously I don't mean a literal need. Advertising is a reflection of popular thought into channels to convince demographics to buy their products. It is self-evident that "sex sells" and the objectification of women is a manifestation of this existing within American society for example.

Reread the studies I posted here

It not only shows that in advertising "Men in the West are dressed in full; women are dressed half , quarter or less" is true but that it has demonstrable affects on public perception of women

And that to me is disgusting. You may say that advertising is only one facet of American culture, that is true. You will find similar trends in all facets of popular culture including movies, music, and television. And you may try to dismiss it but the studies I linked to demonstrate that it is reflective of cultural trends.

At this point I have evidence on my side and you have ambiguous statements on yours so I'm done unless you have additional information to share.

 

[painted wolf]

Obviously I don't mean a literal need. Advertising is a reflection of popular thought into channels to convince demographics to buy their products. It is self-evident that "sex sells" and the objectification of women is a manifestation of this existing within American society for example.

Reread the studies I posted here

It not only shows that in advertising "Men in the West are dressed in full; women are dressed half , quarter or less" is true but that it has demonstrable affects on public perception of women

And that to me is disgusting. You may say that advertising is only one facet of American culture, that is true. You will find similar trends in all facets of popular culture including movies, music, and television. And you may try to dismiss it but the studies I linked to demonstrate that it is reflective of cultural trends.

At this point I have evidence on my side and you have ambiguous statements on yours so I'm done unless you have additional information to share.

So... how women are portrayed in media is more important than how women actually dress? I'm not saying that media doesn't influence or reflect culture, but seriously, you really think that all women in "the west" from France and Germany to the USA, Canada and Iceland dress in skimpy outfits? Or to narrow that, that all women in the USA dress like characters in an HBO show?

I suppose then everyone in "the east" practices martial arts and rides in giant robots.
(in the case of India, breaks out in spontaneous song and dance routines)

wa:do

And once again... there are plenty of women (and men) in the west trying to fight that public image that is peddled by mass media.

 

[Bismillah]

So... how women are portrayed in media is more important than how women actually dress? I'm not saying that media doesn't influence or reflect culture, but seriously, you really think that all women in "the west" from France and Germany to the USA, Canada and Iceland dress in skimpy outfits? Or to narrow that, that all women in the USA dress like characters in an HBO show?

Like I said I have seen you continually downplay media as not reflective of reality. This is an ambiguous statement. You have yet to substantiate it aside from anecdotal evidence. I have posted a comprehensive study regarding this exact question and it has concluded that media, popular culture, and advertising is a reflection of the values that society holds, it does not retroactively mold society it mirrors it. And it indeed does mirror a depraving and unequal system of sexual exploitation.

 

[painted wolf]

Like I said I have seen you continually downplay media as not reflective of reality. This is an ambiguous statement. You have yet to substantiate it aside from anecdotal evidence. I have posted a comprehensive study regarding this exact question and it has concluded that media, popular culture, and advertising is a reflection of the values that society holds, it does not retroactively mold society it mirrors it. And it indeed does mirror a depraving and unequal system of sexual exploitation.

Actually there is good evidence that it does mold it... rather than reflect it.
http://pure.au.dk/portal-asb-student/files/10594/8_-_sexual_objectification_of_women.pdf

It is increasingly sexualizing males as well as females
Thou shalt sport a banana in thy pocket: Gendered body size ideals in advertising and popular culture
Beyond the `Sexualization of Culture' Thesis: An Intersectional Analysis of `Sixpacks',`Midriffs' and `Hot Lesbians' in Advertising

However, in some ways it is getting better.
Journal of the Academy of Marketing Science, Volume 38, Number 4 - SpringerLink

Advertizing is not a perfect mirror of a culture, it's a dim and twisted one. And once more... advertizing isn't something that everyone in "the west" simply accepts as alright as is. I don't know why you keep ignoring this fact.

wa:do

 

[Bismillah]

Actually there is good evidence that it does mold it... rather than reflect it.

I never denied that it doesn't mold it but it is combination of things, certainly not media itself. However the fact that it reflects and molds it is not to your argument's favor, certainly....

It is increasingly sexualizing males as well as females

Which was never denied. That does not mean however that it is unequeal in sexual depiction in women again let me repost those studies it is some powerful stuff

Heflick and Goldenberg (2009) were the first to demonstrate that perceivers attributed and less competence to a female celebrity and view her as similar to an object when focusing on her appearance as compared to her personality

It has been shown that the media primarily focus on body parts rather than the face when depicting women (i.e., face-ism bias), whereas this bias is usually absent or markedly reduced when men are portrayed in advertisement (e.g., Archer et al., 1983). Recent studies suggest that sexual objectification could cause negative social perception. For example, Loughnan and his colleagues (2011) have shown that people depersonalize men and women when they are portrayed as a body wearing a swimsuit or underwear (i.e., sexually objectified targets) compared to when their face is highlighted (see also Gurung & Chrouser, 2007).

Vaes and his colleagues have demonstrated that sexual objectification leads to animalize female targets (Vaes, Paladino, & Puvia, 2010). When completing a reaction time task requiring the categorization of words (i.e., animal vs. human words) and pictures (i.e., sexualized bodies vs. faces), people matched less quickly pictures to uniquely human characteristics, but only when the targets were objectified and female. These data suggest that people perceive women as closer to animals when their sexualized body is highlighted rather than their face. These authors have also shown that both men and women dehumanize sexually objectified women, but for different reasons. Females dehumanize objectified women because they consider them as a disliked subcategory whereas men do so when a sex-goal is activated (Vaes et al., 2010).

Furthermore, Cikara, Eberhardt and Fiske (2010) have shown that people are more likely to associate sexualized women (e.g., wearing a swimsuit) to first person verbs and non-sexualized (e.g., clothed) women to verbs at the third person. Given that attributing third person verbs is specific for agents (i.e., only agents can decide their actions), these results suggest that sexualization diminishes attribution of agency.

The results showed a clear schism between the images of men and women. When viewing female images, participants were better at recognizing individual parts than they were matching whole-body photographs to the originals. The opposite was true for male images: People were better at recognizing a guy as a whole than they were his individual parts.

People were also better at discerning women's individual body parts than they were at men's individual body parts, further confirming the local processing, or objectification, that was happening.

So yes to a degree men are sexualied no denying that. However it is much more prevalent among women to the point that different connotations arise between the depiction of two sexes)

Advertizing is not a perfect mirror of a culture, it's a dim and twisted one.

Amibgious statement. No one said it isn't a perfect mirror it is just very good at reflecting those values society places an emphasis on. That has also been supported by studies I linked to.

advertizing isn't something that everyone in "the west" simply accepts as alright as is

I am not ignoring the fact it is a fact that need be ignored. Because naturally advertising aims for the largest demographic those that don't fit the pattern are called outliers and aren't relevant to our discussion when looking at society as a whole. So yes while these types of people exist (such as yourself and me I am guessing) when talking about broad cultural tendencies the objectification of women is among the mainstream message of today's America.

 

[paarsurrey]

I would like to add that we are not comparing here trends in the West with the trends in the East.

We are making comparison of the West with the West; more precisely of the Victorian period West with the current West.

During the intervening period; women have resorted to being less dressed to attract men to them with the result, I may be wrong, cheating on sex has increased; again to the detriment of the interests of women.

Divorces and family break-ups have increased; which is socially undesirable.

Etc., etc.., and etc..

Is this situation desirable, good or it is the best now than in the past.

 

[FearGod]

I would like to add that we are not comparing here trends in the West with the trends in the East.

We are making comparison of the West with the West; more precisely of the Victorian period West with the current West.

During the intervening period; women have resorted to being less dressed to attract men to them with the result, I may be wrong, cheating on sex has increased; again to the detriment of the interests of women.

Divorces and family break-ups have increased; which is socially undesirable.

Etc., etc.., and etc..

Is this situation desirable, good or it is the best now than in the past.

in other words

Why the western women during the victorian period wore full dress,
ist because of lack of technology to produce shorter sexier dresses or because of morals or the women were oppressed and subjected to men at the previous times.

i think the question what factors make such changes on women,if i get it right.