Misogynistic and Selfish, Edinburgh's Rape Crisis Centre's CEO is a trans-woman, i.e. a man !

[SkepticThinker]

try to put yourself in the place of a rape victim...

Sure. I'm a rape victim.

Like I said, I have no inherent problem with the CEO of a rape crisis centre being a trans woman.
I also wouldn't have a problem if my counsellor was a transwoman, because as noted earlier in the thread, the transwomen I know thus far in my life are some of the most understanding and compassionate people I've ever known. It's almost like they've experienced some trauma in their lives which helps them relate to other trauma victims.

I think many ideas started off with good intentions, but have been twisted. For the first couple waves of feminism, trans activism wasn't really a thing - at least not in any substantial way. But trans activists have taken this idea and warped it. It's led to horrific things like "self-id" laws which are causing serious problems for women and gays.


We know that extremists often have an outsized impact on society. What we're seeing is trans activists "canceling" people who do not bow to their pronoun demands.


Of course.

But calling a trans woman "she" is not a neutral act. It negatively impacts women. It is a zero-sum solution.

You keep saying this but have never explained how.

I am not negatively impacted when a transwoman is referred to as a woman. Not in the slightest. Why do you think I am?

A large percentage of trans people are clearly the sex they are. When you see a trans woman on the streets who is clearly a biological male, calling that person "she" fools no one. Forcing people to lie does NOT engender compassion for trans people, it's quite the opposite.

It's not a lie to them. Just like my anxiety disorder is not a lie to me, even though you may not believe in anxiety disorders.

So you think that referring to a person in the pronouns they've asked to be referred to with, does NOT engender compassion for trans people. So that means telling them it's a "lie" to call them "she" and refusing to do it DOES engender compassion for trans people, or ... ?

And unless you're inspecting the genitals of everyone you meet, you really have no idea either. Someone who is "clearly a biological male" to you may just be a woman with facial hair and a masculine appearance.

It's quite telling to me though, that you seem to think that trans people are trying so hard to "fool" everybody when in actuality, they're just trying to be themselves.

Being trans is a mental condition. There are any number of mental conditions. To say that it is a mental condition is not prejudiced, it's reality. Calling a trans woman "she" denies reality. In the long term, how is that healthy for anyone.

Oh okay. So how do think you would be impacted if I just started denying that you're a man and refused to address you as "he" and started calling you Sally? And then when you said "please call me he, as I am I man." And I replied with "that's a lie. I say you're a woman, Sally." Would you say that would contribute to your mental health, or detract from it?

Now, does stigmatizing happen? Of course, and we should combat it. But not thru lies.

Your comments here do nothing to combat stigmatization. Quite the opposite.

 

[icehorse]

What about it? I have cis women family and friends who have been raped and are ok with trans people. They see us as who we are (my nieces, all for of them, referr to me as thier aunt). When I came out to my sister's oldest daughter, her tone and demeanor was like I told her I was going to town.
Most women just don't care or are.even supportive of trans people. I know that doesn't fit into your narrative, but you've spent months now speaking for women and gays, when largely those two groups do not agree with you. Now you're speaking for rape victims, so much so you stated prior that you would make demands on behalf if a raped family member. That's not your rightful decision or call to make, it is not your place to butt in and make medical decisions for others.
Largely and mostly it's men who are opposed to LGBT stuff. Of course lots of men aren't, some of my friends are men, and plenty of women are against it, but if you're the betting type thats where you want to place your money if we're drawing a random person from a hat.

Your lived experience is nothing more than a few data points.

I'm reporting the experiences of people who have worked in rape crisis centers and have hundreds or thousands of data points.

As for medical decisions, again, I'm reporting on the findings of large studies and reviews, and I don't care what you think, if confused kids are getting maimed, it's everyone's job to speak up.

As for LGBT, it's not really a thing. I know of many LGBs who want to distance themselves from trans activists, and this sentiment is growing. Again, not trans people, trans activists.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah, I've had enough of your transphobia and odd accusations that don't even make sense, like "word salad" and "revisionist history".

The facts stand. You've displayed blatant transphobia, and you're pushing a TERF agenda. It's harmful and hateful, and I hope you find it in your heart to break away from that someday.

You are parroting a blatant, political ideology that's misogynistic and homophobic. I hope you'll see the light someday.

I continue to advocate for win-win solutions, you continue to advocate for women-lose solutions, that's clear in this thread.

 

[Magic Man]

You are parroting a blatant, political ideology that's misogynistic and homophobic. I hope you'll see the light someday.

I hate to break this to you, but you're projecting here. Everything you said here is true of you, not me.

I continue to advocate for win-win solutions, you continue to advocate for women-lose solutions, that's clear in this thread.

You continue to advocate for transphobia and a TERF agenda, which is a loss for trans people and women. I advocate for both women and trans people, which is a win for both. That's clear in this thread.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Your lived experience is nothing more than a few data points.

If it ever needs to be said.

"I am transphobic because I support women and victims of rape!"
"I am a woman and a victim of rape, and I don't agree with your transphobia."
"WELL, WHAT DO YOU KNOW??"

Remember folks, the most pro-woman and anti-rape thing you can do is dismiss entirely the opinions of women and rape victims.

 

[icehorse]

Sure. I'm a rape victim.

Like I said, I have no inherent problem with the CEO of a rape crisis centre being a trans woman.
I also wouldn't have a problem if my counsellor was a transwoman, because as noted earlier in the thread, the transwomen I know thus far in my life are some of the most understanding and compassionate people I've ever known. It's almost like they've experienced some trauma in their lives which helps them relate to other trauma victims.

I'm sorry that happened to you

But your lived experience is a single data point. Roz Adams worked at a rape crisis center and saw hundreds or thousands of cases. Her data set is far more meaningful than yours.

So you think that referring to a person in the pronouns they've asked to be referred to with, does NOT engender compassion for trans people. So that means telling them it's a "lie" to call them "she" and refusing to do it DOES engender compassion for trans people, or ... ?

And unless you're inspecting the genitals of everyone you meet, you really have no idea either. Someone who is "clearly a biological male" to you may just be a woman with facial hair and a masculine appearance.

You and I are aware of details about transgender people and gender ideology. But we're in the minority. Mostly people are not up to speed on these topics and asking them to lie does not engender compassion.

Oh okay. So how do think you would be impacted if I just started denying that you're a man and refused to address you as "he" and started calling you Sally? And then when you said "please call me he, as I am I man." And I replied with "that's a lie. I say you're a woman, Sally." Would you say that would contribute to your mental health, or detract from it?

Reality always wins.

There are people with mental health conditions so severe that they must be institutionalized. And sometimes for those people the view is that it's best to let those people live out their fantasies. If they want to be called Napolean, care workers do so.

But that's not the case with the majority of trans people. They know that they feel they are in the wrong body. We can best support them by calling them trans women or trans men and I think we should give them their own pronouns.

Your comments here do nothing to combat stigmatization. Quite the opposite.

We're in a debate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Your lived experience is nothing more than a few data points.

I'm reporting the experiences of people who have worked in rape crisis centers and have hundreds or thousands of data points.

As for medical decisions, again, I'm reporting on the findings of large studies and reviews, and I don't care what you think, if confused kids are getting maimed, it's everyone's job to speak up.

As for LGBT, it's not really a thing. I know of many LGBs who want to distance themselves from trans activists, and this sentiment is growing. Again, not trans people, trans activists.

Anything of substance that doesn't boil down to you being a transphobe who weaponizes others, even when those others (such as we have seen from cis women here) you weaponize are telling you no, they disagree with you and you don't speak for them. THAT is misogyny, not males medically and socially transitioning to female.

 

[icehorse]

If it ever needs to be said.

"I am transphobic because I support women and victims of rape!"
"I am a woman and a victim of rape, and I don't agree with your transphobia."
"WELL, WHAT DO YOU KNOW??"

Remember folks, the most pro-woman and anti-rape thing you can do is dismiss entirely the opinions of women and rape victims.

Roz Adams knows the opinions of far, far, far more rape victims than any poster on RF.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Your lived experience is nothing more than a few data points.

I'm reporting the experiences of people who have worked in rape crisis centers and have hundreds or thousands of data points.

No, you're not. You're reporting on one person in one rape crisis centre and them broadly generalizing from there.


All the while telling the transpeople on the board that their lived experiences don't matter and only count for "a few data points."
Same goes for my point of view about rape counsellors, as a female rape victim myself. Not important to you. Just a "few data points."

As for medical decisions, again, I'm reporting on the findings of large studies and reviews, and I don't care what you think, if confused kids are getting maimed, it's everyone's job to speak up.

As for LGBT, it's not really a thing. I know of many LGBs who want to distance themselves from trans activists, and this sentiment is growing. Again, not trans people, trans activists.

 

[icehorse]

Anything of substance that doesn't boil down to you being a transphobe who weaponizes others, even when those others (such as we have seen from cis women here) you weaponize are telling you no, they disagree with you and you don't speak for them. THAT is misogyny, not males medically and socially transitioning to female.

Again, Roz Adams has far, far more data than anyone on RF. JKR has established a rape crisis center so that victims do not have to be exposed to gender ideology when they are at their most vulnerable.

They both have far, far more credibility than you do.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm sorry that happened to you

But your lived experience is a single data point. Roz Adams worked at a rape crisis center and saw hundreds or thousands of cases. Her data set is far more meaningful than yours.


You and I are aware of details about transgender people and gender ideology. But we're in the minority. Mostly people are not up to speed on these topics and asking them to lie does not engender compassion.


Reality always wins.

There are people with mental health conditions so severe that they must be institutionalized. And sometimes for those people the view is that it's best to let those people live out their fantasies. If they want to be called Napolean, care workers do so.

But that's not the case with the majority of trans people. They know that they feel they are in the wrong body. We can best support them by calling them trans women or trans men and I think we should give them their own pronouns.


We're in a debate.

Yeah, what you think is only one data point.
"...I think we should give them their own pronouns. ..."
So you don't even follow your own rule, logic and rationality. Yeah, there is a long way for you to understand when you are subjective.

 

[Magic Man]

But calling a trans woman "she" is not a neutral act. It negatively impacts women. It is a zero-sum solution.

How?

A large percentage of trans people are clearly the sex they are. When you see a trans woman on the streets who is clearly a biological male, calling that person "she" fools no one. Forcing people to lie does NOT engender compassion for trans people, it's quite the opposite.

Right, and this is a clear example of you not understanding gender or that there is a difference between gender and sex. Calling a trans woman "she" isn't meant to "fool" anyone. We're not talking about lying.

There is biological sex. This is physical.

There is gender. This is mental/psychological.

"Woman" refers to a female human. Usually, that means someone whose biological sex and gender are both female, but that's not always the case.

If we're talking about a trans woman, she is a woman. That's not a lie or trying to fool anyone. It's not specifically saying her biological sex is female. It's acknowledging what she is telling us, that she is a woman.

Once you understand the difference between sex and gender and realize that this isn't about sex, you'll understand what we're all saying.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Roz Adams knows the opinions of far, far, far more rape victims than any poster on RF.

In your nakedly biased opinion.

The important thing is that they agree with your views, so you elevate their opinion over any person, persons or experts who disagree.

It's hilarious the fact that you claim to be representing the interests of women and rape victims while you constantly downplay the voices of any members of those groups who disagree with you. Hilarious and not surprising. Because you're just virtue signalling to support your actual position, which is that trans people are bad, acknowledging trans people is bad, and women and rape victims are just tools to you to be used to advance that agenda.

Give it up already, nobody is buying it.

 

[Magic Man]

As for medical decisions, again, I'm reporting on the findings of large studies and reviews, and I don't care what you think, if confused kids are getting maimed, it's everyone's job to speak up.

Where did you post studies on "confused kids getting maimed"? I'd love to see evidence for that.

As for LGBT, it's not really a thing. I know of many LGBs who want to distance themselves from trans activists, and this sentiment is growing. Again, not trans people, trans activists.

I'm sure you do know many gay and bisexual people who are anti-trans. You apparently run in anti-trans circles, and unfortunately, no group, even other members of the LGBTQ community are immune from transphobic views. I mean, you support women who work against women's issues, so this isn't surprising.

Also, "trans activists" are trans people. You don't like them, so you use loaded language to separate them and make them sound bad.

 

[Magic Man]

Again, Roz Adams has far, far more data than anyone on RF. JKR has established a rape crisis center so that victims do not have to be exposed to gender ideology when they are at their most vulnerable.

They both have far, far more credibility than you do.

Neither one does. Shadow Wolf isn't famous and might not have a lengthy background in these issues, but at least they aren't blatantly anti-trans. Being JKR or associating with her at this point immediately destroys your credibility on these issues.

 

[icehorse]

How?


Right, and this is a clear example of you not understanding gender or that there is a difference between gender and sex. Calling a trans woman "she" isn't meant to "fool" anyone. We're not talking about lying.

There is biological sex. This is physical.

There is gender. This is mental/psychological.

"Woman" refers to a female human. Usually, that means someone whose biological sex and gender are both female, but that's not always the case.

If we're talking about a trans woman, she is a woman. That's not a lie or trying to fool anyone. It's not specifically saying her biological sex is female. It's acknowledging what she is telling us, that she is a woman.

Once you understand the difference between sex and gender and realize that this isn't about sex, you'll understand what we're all saying.

I understand what you're saying, I simply disagree.

Everyday confused kids are being maimed and sterilized because of the gender ideology you are supporting. There is no good evidence that the cruel medical interventions they are receiving have any positive results.

Women and girls are being abused by bad men who are using poorly conceived gender identity laws.

You are defending zero-sum solutions at the expense of women and gay people. Over the last several months, across many threads, I've provided strong evidence to back up my claims. For the most part, the RFers in your cohort choose to remain ignorant of the evidence and continue to support these cruel, zero-sum solutions.

I disagree with you.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm sorry that happened to you

Thank you.

But your lived experience is a single data point. Roz Adams worked at a rape crisis center and saw hundreds or thousands of cases. Her data set is far more meaningful than yours.

Okay, so my lived experience is a "single data point."
You just said we should ask rape victims what they think.
So I tell you what I think and now I'm being dismissed as a "single data point."

But your single example of one single person at a rape crisis centre is far more meaningful than my lived experience. You've not presented anything about "hundreds of thousands of cases."

Mkay.

You and I are aware of details about transgender people and gender ideology. But we're in the minority. Mostly people are not up to speed on these topics and asking them to lie does not engender compassion.

This was in response to, "So you think that referring to a person in the pronouns they've asked to be referred to with, does NOT engender compassion for trans people. So that means telling them it's a "lie" to call them "she" and refusing to do it DOES engender compassion for trans people, or ... ?

And unless you're inspecting the genitals of everyone you meet, you really have no idea either. Someone who is "clearly a biological male" to you may just be a woman with facial hair and a masculine appearance."

I don't see a response that addresses what I said here.

Reality always wins.

Well, the reality is, that transgender people exist and feel the way they feel.
You want to deny them reality in favour of your personal feelings and opinions.

There are people with mental health conditions so severe that they must be institutionalized. And sometimes for those people the view is that it's best to let those people live out their fantasies. If they want to be called Napolean, care workers do so.

We lock people up if they are a harm to themselves or others. Not just because they think they're Napoleon or something. There's much more to it than that.

Mental illnesses are things that cause people physical or psychological distress across various aspects of their lives. In light of that, do you think referring to a transwoman as "he" against the person's wishes contributes to, or detracts from their psychological health? You seem to think you're doing people a favour by misgendering them .. ? "Reality" and all that.

But that's not the case with the majority of trans people. They know that they feel they are in the wrong body. We can best support them by calling them trans women or trans men and I think we should give them their own pronouns.

We've heard from trans people on this board about this and you seem to have just ignored their responses as to why this is not a good idea.

We're in a debate.

This was in response to, "Your comments here do nothing to combat stigmatization. Quite the opposite."

 

[Magic Man]

I understand what you're saying, I simply disagree.

There's nothing to disagree with. I'm not stating an opinion. And you're not even disagreeing. The whole point there was that you keep referring to someone's biological sex, as if that is the determiner of their pronouns and how we refer to them. It's the same thing JKR does.

Everyday confused kids are being maimed and sterilized because of the gender ideology you are supporting. There is no good evidence that the cruel medical interventions they are receiving have any positive results.

I'm sure you have plenty of evidence to back this up. To clarify, you'd need to support:

1) There are confused kids

2) There are kids being maimed.

3) There are kids being sterilized.

4) There are cruel medical interventions.

5) Gender-affirming care doesn't produce positive results.

6) There is such a thing as "gender ideology", and that's not just a vague term used by transphobes.

I eagerly await all of the hard data I'm sure you'll provide.

Women and girls are being abused by bad men who are using poorly conceived gender identity laws.

And again, I'm sure you have plenty of evidence for this. I'll clarify again. You need to support the following:

1) There are poorly conceived gender identity laws.

2) Women and girls and being abused by bad man using said laws.

You are defending zero-sum solutions at the expense of women and gay people. Over the last several months, across many threads, I've provided strong evidence to back up my claims. For the most part, the RFers in your cohort choose to remain ignorant of the evidence and continue to support these cruel, zero-sum solutions.

I disagree with you.

I'm defending women, gay people and trans people. It's not a zero-sum game. If you've provided that strong evidence, then point me to it (specifically, not just "in X thread from 3 months ago).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They both have far, far more credibility than you do.

Says the person with none, so that's hilariously ironic! SW not only has lived experience (which does actually matter, regardless of you trying to be dismissive), but experience working in mental health.

JK Rowlings is just some celeb fiction writer. She's no authority on anything.

 

[icehorse]

But your single example of one single person at a rape crisis centre is far more meaningful than my lived experience. You've not presented anything about "hundreds of thousands of cases."

Mkay.

A little typo you did here: I said "hundreds OR thousands" of cases.

If you read or watched any of the information that's been provided in this thread you can see that Roz Adams worked at this rape crisis center for years.

I don't see a response that addresses what I said here.

Most people are not up to speed on transgenderism. By demanding that they lie about what their eyes are telling them you are fostering bad feelings, not good ones.

We've heard from trans people on this board about this and you seem to have just ignored their responses as to why this is not a good idea.

You're a poor mind reader, I have NOT ignored them. What I'm doing is zooming out to see the bigger picture. You seem to be hoping that we cold magically inform all of society that using biologically false pronouns would somehow support trans people. But we can't. Forcing people to lie - in the grand scheme of things - will not be good for trans people in the long run.

This was in response to, "Your comments here do nothing to combat stigmatization. Quite the opposite."

Again, we're in a debate. This is not the same as interactions in the real world. We discuss and debate things differently than how we talk in the real world.