Misogynistic and Selfish, Edinburgh's Rape Crisis Centre's CEO is a trans-woman, i.e. a man !

[icehorse]

This is the prejudice part.

try to put yourself in the place of a rape victim...

You are aware that it is discussed routinely by feminist, often lesbain, theorists?

Think for a second about this. You're saying that a term popularised by feminists is inherently misogynistic. Please tell me you can see how daft that is.

I think many ideas started off with good intentions, but have been twisted. For the first couple waves of feminism, trans activism wasn't really a thing - at least not in any substantial way. But trans activists have taken this idea and warped it. It's led to horrific things like "self-id" laws which are causing serious problems for women and gays.

Then the public can use it as they see fit.

We know that extremists often have an outsized impact on society. What we're seeing is trans activists "canceling" people who do not bow to their pronoun demands.

When you were a boy, if your parents had made you go to school wearing a dress every day do you think you would have experienced some emotional distress due to being forced to present in a way that you didn't identify with?

Of course.

But calling a trans woman "she" is not a neutral act. It negatively impacts women. It is a zero-sum solution.

A large percentage of trans people are clearly the sex they are. When you see a trans woman on the streets who is clearly a biological male, calling that person "she" fools no one. Forcing people to lie does NOT engender compassion for trans people, it's quite the opposite.

Being trans is a mental condition. There are any number of mental conditions. To say that it is a mental condition is not prejudiced, it's reality. Calling a trans woman "she" denies reality. In the long term, how is that healthy for anyone.

Now, does stigmatizing happen? Of course, and we should combat it. But not thru lies.

 

[Magic Man]

I've tried. It's religious nonsense.

What's religious nonsense? Anti-trans stuff?

how about this, give an example from what you just said. Give an example of "a person's mental state regarding the cultural and behavior roles associated with men and women".

OK, female.

And then explain the mental state of a female brick layer?

Which one? As it relates to their gender? If they're female, then it would be female. The brick layer is irrelevant, since we're talking about gender.

 

[Magic Man]

I respect individuals who are worthy of respect. I do not respect identity political groups. In any group of people there are some fine people and some not so fine. Trans people are the same. Mridul is NOT a good person.

1) It's not a matter of "respecting identity political groups", whatever that's supposed to mean. (The term "word salad" comes to mind.) It's about respecting a group of people's basic rights and requests. Not calling a man a woman or vice versa. That's all.

2) In what was in Mridul not a good person? You haven't shown any reason for that claim.

 

[icehorse]

What's religious nonsense? Anti-trans stuff?

OK, female.

Which one? As it relates to their gender? If they're female, then it would be female. The brick layer is irrelevant, since we're talking about gender.

are you equating gender with sex?

and if social norms or expectations are a part of "gender", then how is being a bricklayer irrelevant?

 

[icehorse]

Not calling a man a woman or vice versa.

I think I know what you meant to say here, but this is pretty funny

2) In what was in Mridul not a good person? You haven't shown any reason for that claim.

He brought a political agenda to the centre, putting the needs of the victims behind the needs of his political agenda. Read / watch the two sources you've been provided.

 

[Magic Man]

Not true. But I do think that Mridul should not be working in a rape crisis centre where he can spread his ideology, which I will share with you again:

*where SHE can spread HER ideology

No one is going to take you seriously when you keep injecting your transphobia into things. It's entirely possible that Mridul is doing something wrong, for all I know. But I'm not going to find out from you because of all the transparent transphobia.

 

[Magic Man]

are you equating gender with sex?

No, as you should know by now , they're two different things, although sometimes people do use them interchangeably.

and if social norms or expectations are a part of "gender", then how is being a bricklayer irrelevant?

Because brick layer is a job. It has nothing to do with the gender someone is.

 

[Magic Man]

I think I know what you meant to say here, but this is pretty funny

Uh, I said what I meant to say. Respect involves not calling a man a woman or vice versa. As in, Mridul is a woman. Respecting her would mean calling her a woman and using female pronouns for her. There's nothing funny about that.

He brought a political agenda to the centre, putting the needs of the victims behind the needs of his political agenda. Read / watch the two sources you've been provided.

What political agenda? And try to explain without transphobia.

 

[icehorse]

*where SHE can spread HER ideology

No one is going to take you seriously when you keep injecting your transphobia into things. It's entirely possible that Mridul is doing something wrong, for all I know. But I'm not going to find out from you because of all the transparent transphobia.

I'm simply avoiding being misogynistic! You ought to consider that when you say "she" and "her" in this context.

What political agenda? And try to explain without transphobia.

You've been provided with a link to two articles, a video, and you've been provided- several times - with a quote of Mridul's, clearly flying her political agenda.

 

[icehorse]

No, as you should know by now , they're two different things, although sometimes people do use them interchangeably.

Because brick layer is a job. It has nothing to do with the gender someone is.

I know what biological sex is. I don't think "gender" is a well conceived idea, and you haven't demonstrated that it is.

So you're saying that "gender" doesn't have to do with society's norms? What's your definition of gender then, because I've been told by many people in your cohort that gender has to do with society's norms.

As in, Mridul is a woman

No he is not. Mridul is a trans woman, not a woman.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm simply avoiding being misogynistic! You ought to consider that when you say "she" and "her" in this context.

No, you're not. Properly gendering someone is not misogynistic. Misgendering someone is transphobic.

You've been provided with a link to two articles, a video, and you've been provided- several times - with a quote of Mridul's, clearly flying her political agenda.

Ooo, we're getting somewhere. You finally used her proper pronoun. The only thing I've seen is this:

"Sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well… If you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices… You have to reframe your trauma… To me, therapy is political"

First, the only sources I can find for this don't seem to be reputable ones, and they are all heavily anti-trans, including misgendering her. Assuming it's 100% accurate, she says they'll help people who harbor unacceptable, discriminatory beliefs, but they might also challenge those beliefs.

 

[Magic Man]

I know what biological sex is. I don't think "gender" is a well conceived idea, and you haven't demonstrated that it is.

I have demonstrated that it is. Your refusal to understand and accept it doesn't change that. So, you understand that biological sex is the physical aspect. Now, just remember that gender is basically the mental aspect. It's the mental state. It's been explained to you multiple times here, and instead of even attempting to understand it, you just throw out the usual nonsensical right-wing "zingers" that display a deep refusal to understand.

So you're saying that "gender" doesn't have to do with society's norms? What's your definition of gender then, because I've been told by many people in your cohort that gender has to do with society's norms.

If you're trying to get at the idea that brick layers are "male" according to society's norms, you'll have to support that.

Then, if you attempt that, when you're done, you'll have to realize that a person's job can or cannot be part of their personality.

Then, after you realize that, you'll realize that societal norms go a lot deeper than profession.

No he is not. Mridul is a trans woman, not a woman.

Yes, SHE is. Mridul is a trans woman, which is a woman. Again, if your only goal is to show people that you can spew the same transphobia as JK Rowling and her buddies, then mission accomplished. If your goal is to get anyone reasonable to take you seriously, you're failing miserably.

 

[icehorse]

No, you're not. Properly gendering someone is not misogynistic. Misgendering someone is transphobic.

You say I'm being transphobic (an unnatural fear of what exactly, you haven't specified).
I say you're being misogynistic.

We've both offered our opinions on this point several times, we should agree to disagree.

However, if we had trans-specific pronouns, we could both be happy.

Assuming it's 100% accurate, she says they'll help people who harbor unacceptable, discriminatory beliefs, but they might also challenge those beliefs.

When a victim comes to a rape crisis centre they do NOT need to be lectured on politics, full stop!

Now, just remember that gender is basically the mental aspect. It's the mental state. It's been explained to you multiple times here, and instead of even attempting to understand it, you just throw out the usual nonsensical right-wing "zingers" that display a deep refusal to understand.

All I've been given is various versions of word salad. Please explain why my demand to be referred to as "your holy
highness" is not consistent with the so-called definitions of gender we've seen so far on this thread.

If you're trying to get at the idea that brick layers are "male" according to society's norms, you'll have to support that.

Then, if you attempt that, when you're done, you'll have to realize that a person's job can or cannot be part of their personality.

Then, after you realize that, you'll realize that societal norms go a lot deeper than profession.

I'm still trying to help you get to a workable definition of gender. I offered the bricklayer example to give you a hand, nothing more.

Yes, SHE is. Mridul is a trans woman, which is a woman. Again, if your only goal is to show people that you can spew the same transphobia as JK Rowling and her buddies, then mission accomplished. If your goal is to get anyone reasonable to take you seriously, you're failing miserably.

Ha! I'm FAR happier having JKR as an allie, than anyone on this forum. Did you know, for example, that JKR established a rape crisis center that does not subject victims to the political agendas of the "care givers"?

Please show how JKR is transphobic? Be specific, not vague.

 

[Magic Man]

You say I'm being transphobic (an unnatural fear of what exactly, you haven't specified).

Yes, it's a fact that you're being transphobic.

Transphobia: an aversion or hostility to, disdain for, or fear of transgender people.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

I say you're being misogynistic.

And you're wrong.

We've both offered our opinions on this point several times, we should agree to disagree.

No, I've pointed out a fact. You've attempted to use a transphobic (TERF) talking point that isn't true.

However, if we had trans-specific pronouns, we could both be happy.

No, we wouldn't. You'd find some way to argue against them, and I'd see them for what they are: an attempt to discredit and dismiss trans people. If a woman is a woman, call her a woman with the appropriate pronouns. It's very simple.

When a victim comes to a rape crisis centre they do NOT need to be lectured on politics, full stop!

Cool, then read the whole quote again, so you can assuage your fears.

All I've been given is various versions of word salad.

No, you've been given clear, concise definitions from good sources. You have refused to engage with them and instead falsely labeled them "word salad", due to your transphobia.

Please explain why my demand to be referred to as "your holy
highness" is not consistent with the so-called definitions of gender we've seen so far on this thread.

I already have. You have dismissed it without understanding it or even attempting to engage with it in good faith.

I'm still trying to help you get to a workable definition of gender. I offered the bricklayer example to give you a hand, nothing more.

I gave you a workable definition of gender. You rejected it due to your transphobia. Your brick layer example is a non sequitur and an attempt to dismiss transgenderism without actually understanding it.

Ha! I'm FAR happier having JKR as an allie, than anyone on this forum. Did you know, for example, that JKR established a rape crisis center that does not subject victims to the political agendas of the "care givers"?

Oh, I'm sure you are. Transphobic people and TERFs are very happy to have such a vocal TERF/transphobe to boost their signal.

Please show how JKR is transphobic? Be specific, not vague.

If you have to ask for that, we all know you're not actually going to accept the mountains of evidence I provide, so it's not exactly worth it.

 

[icehorse]

@Magic Man - enough of your revisionist history, the thread stands, have a fine day.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

try to put yourself in the place of a rape victim...

What about it? I have cis women family and friends who have been raped and are ok with trans people. They see us as who we are (my nieces, all for of them, referr to me as thier aunt). When I came out to my sister's oldest daughter, her tone and demeanor was like I told her I was going to town.
Most women just don't care or are.even supportive of trans people. I know that doesn't fit into your narrative, but you've spent months now speaking for women and gays, when largely those two groups do not agree with you. Now you're speaking for rape victims, so much so you stated prior that you would make demands on behalf if a raped family member. That's not your rightful decision or call to make, it is not your place to butt in and make medical decisions for others.
Largely and mostly it's men who are opposed to LGBT stuff. Of course lots of men aren't, some of my friends are men, and plenty of women are against it, but if you're the betting type thats where you want to place your money if we're drawing a random person from a hat.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

so it's not exactly worth it.

It's really not. I'm just procrastinating because I have to work early tomorrow amd go to bed way before my body's own natural bedtime (even my mom feels sorry for when i have to be at 9 AM or earlier).

 

[Magic Man]

@Magic Man - enough of your revisionist history, the thread stands, have a fine day.

Yeah, I've had enough of your transphobia and odd accusations that don't even make sense, like "word salad" and "revisionist history".

The facts stand. You've displayed blatant transphobia, and you're pushing a TERF agenda. It's harmful and hateful, and I hope you find it in your heart to break away from that someday.

 

[Nakosis]

It's gobsmacking to me that Edinburgh's Rape Crisis Centre's CEO is a man.

It's gobsmacking to me that I even have to explain why this is a huge problem.

Go ahead, call me "trans-phobic", but if a girl or woman I loved (or any female for that matter), was raped by a man, and went to a rape crisis center for support, I would demand that the victim not be "counseled" by a man.

But it appears that Mridul Wadhwa, the CEO man in question, prioritizes his gender ideology over the care of the females in his center:

The “heresy hunt” at the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre

I'd suppose this to mean that a person born a male can come to understand the needs of a female during a crisis.
I see this as progress in seeing gender identity irrelevant to our ability to support gender specific issues.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Some nuance people!

Again, what I'm opposed to is ANYONE bringing gender ideology into a rape crisis center. And if you read the quote from this particular person you can see that that's exactly what he was doing.


Political ideologies do not belong in rape crisis centers.

And again, ffs, I have no problems with trans people, I have huge problems with trans activists who promote misogynistic and/or homophobic policies.

Yeah, you definitely don't have a problem with trans people. You just create thread after thread decrying practically every aspect about them, repeatedly and purposefully misgender them, and discriminate against them based on your assumption that they all espouse some sinister "gender ideology" that they supposedly want to push on everyone.

Let's step back here..

We're talking about a trans woman who decides he wants to run a rape crisis center. It strikes me as obvious that the odds are that any trans woman with that goal has a political agenda.

Why? How is it obvious?

Even having that person apply for the job would be to court controversy.

Why? Are trans people incapable of being raped? Incapable of wanting to help others who have been raped? What?

And what special skills does that person imagine he'd bring to the job?

She, you mean?
I don't know. Understanding, compassion, kindness, to name a few.

And would he think that the victims would welcome this complex, political wrinkle into the situation when they are seeking help are at their most vulnerable. Again, as I said in the OP, this strikes me as a very selfish move.


I think "gender identity" is a misogynistic, homophobic, political tactic.

You think a lot of things are misogynistic and homophobic that actually aren't, apparently.

Again, I'd support trans-specific pronouns. But calling a trans woman "she" is again, misogynistic. Pronouns are not owned by individuals, language is public property.

Explain in detail what's misogynistic about it. Don't just state it, show it, explain.

I have compassion for trans people.

I'm not seeing it.

I disagree with much of what trans activists do. For the sake of discussion, let's say that "zee and zer" were accepted as trans-specific pronouns. In that case how does calling trans women, trans women and referring to them as zee / zer hurt them? If anything it clears up confusion.

We've just heard from a trans person about how useful an idea this is, so I'll refer you to that post instead of responding. (I've also responded to this many times before anyway.)