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Mithras the true Savior

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
That's your evidence. There is no mention of Mithras, but for some unknown reason you decide Pilleatus is Mithras.

...

This is a know title of Mithras, and as I'm sure you probably know, other translations use Mithras. All of the churches know this.

It is also listed under Mithras almost everywhere.

"Tertullian in anger ascribed this mimicking of Christian rites to the "devil" and observed in astonishment (De prescript haeret, C. xl): "celebrat (Mithras) et panis oblationem."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacrifice of the Mass

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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is a know title of Mithras
It isn't. If it were, it would be "known" by someone and you wouldn't have to scrounge the internet looking everywhere for some reference to Mithras that you end up on the Catholic encyclopedia website quoting a piece of a text (De praescriptione haereticorum) you can't read:
"XL
[1] Sed quaeritur, a quo intellectus intervertatur eorum quae ad haereses faciant? [2] A diabolo scilicet, cuius sunt partes intervertendi veritatem qui ipsas quoque res sacramentorum divinorum dolorum mysteriis aemulatur. Tingit et ipse quosdam utique credentes et fideles suos; expositionem delictorum de lavacro repromittit, [4] et si adhuc memini Mithrae, signat illic in frontibus milites suos. Celebrat et panis oblationem et imaginem resurrectionis inducit et sub gladio redimit coronam."

["But where can be found that place whence comes the understanding that makes all heresies? From the devil most assuredly, from whom all aspects of truth are abused who also the sacred affair of the divine vies with through his deceitful mysteries. He even dabs water [baptizes] on his believing and faithful; this bathing he promises as a removal of transgressions, and Mithra, if I recall this rightly, he signs upon the foreheads of his soldiers. And he celebrates an offering of bread and displays the image of resurrection and tops it off with an offering under the sword [sub gladio/beneath or under the sword is a euphemism for execution; I might translate it as "he crowns this by a fake sacrifice of his life" but that's straying a bit too far from the Latin]

So Tertullian tells us that imitation rites of Christian rituals that are recorded in Paul's epistles are going on in c. 3rd century, over a century after Paul describes this. And you claim this is him admitting that the mysteries of Mithras predate Christianity? You do know that not only Mithras, but Attis and other mystery religions either popped up or were changed because of Christianity (see Bremmer's Greek Religion) and the emperor Julian was so concerned about Christianity spreading that in addition to attempting to restore as many pagan holy sites as possible he borrowed too from Christianity and from Neo-Platonism to make a "pagan monotheism" that could rival Christianity in its combination of philosophy/theology and religion as well as eschatology and soteriology? He was too late. Christians had already beaten him by stealing from Greek philosophy themselves and adding it to their connection to Judaism (in the Greco-Roman world, new things were considered suspect but ancient traditions, even ones disliked, were treated with greater respect simply for being old), and finally the eschatology, soteriology, and coherent religious system (which had been and largely remained completely absent in antiquity until Christianity and then Islam spread).




and as I'm sure you probably know, other translations use Mithras
They don't. You may have found some on the internet, but classicists would not translate a name into something completely different for the hell of it.

So far, you've stated that a random individual is Mithras, that Tertullian's rantings about imitations of Christianity somehow imply that he is saying these are pre-Christian (he's not and they aren't). His description is not found in Mithras iconography (see Beck's...well, just about anything, actually, as he's currently perhaps the Mithras scholar around, but he did write this article: MITHRAISM), so either he's wrong, or this is a novelty for Mithraism.

All of the churches know this.
Right. The Catholic Encyclopedia is not "all the churches", even if you cite it twice.

It is also listed under Mithras almost everywhere.

Funny. No actual specialists in Roman religion, the mystery religions, Mithras, etc., seem to know this:
if you are interested in the dynamics between Christianity and paganism in the early years, Robin Lane Fox's Pagans and Christians is unmatched in its treatment of the subject. It's also unmatched in length, so you might prefer Religious Rivalries in the Early Roman Empire and the Rise of Christianity (vol. 18 of monograph series Studies in Christianity and Judaism). One of the papers in that volume is by Beck and is on Mithras.

If you are interested in the mystery religions in general, Walter Burkert's Antike Mysterien: Funktionen und Gehalt is a classic and there is an English translation: Ancient Mystery Cults (which is probably easier to obtain than the original). The edited volume Mystic Cults in Magna Graecia is much more comprehensive and is more up to date, but is also more technical. Bremmer's Greek Religion is a classic. The generally excellent Blackwell companion series include both a Companion to Greek Religion and a Companion to Roman Religion.

If you are looking for information about Mithras specifically, Clauss is certainly an authority, but I'm not sure what books of his are available in English (although if you happen to read German, Mithras: Kult und Mysterien and Cultores Mithrae: Die Anhängerschaft des Mithraskultes are excellent). David Ulansey's The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World is a pretty straight-forward text is one among the standard texts cited in any work on Mithras in the literature. Beck does have a book on Mithras (The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire: Mysteries of the Unconquered Sun) which is still in print and should be obtainable through inter-library loan.
 
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LOL. Way up above. But here is more of one of the quotes with sentences from above and below it to show it is saying Mithra/Mithras was before Jesus. Read 6.

“Impure spirits knew that Jesus Christ would come, they had heard of His coming from the angels, they had heard of it from the prophets, and they expected him.”

“They expected that He would come, but they were ignorant of the time….”

“And this is a great thing to see in the whole world, the lion vanquished by the blood of the Lamb: members of Christ delivered from the teeth of the lions, and joined to the body of Christ.
Therefore
SOME SPIRIT or other contrived the COUNTERFIT that HIS IMAGE should be bought for BLOOD, because he knew that the human race WAS AT SOME TIME to be redeemed BY the precious BLOOD. For evil spirits counterfeit certain shadows of honor to themselves, that they may DECEIVE those who follow Christ. So much so, my brethren, that those who seduce by means of amulets, by incantations, by the devices of the enemy, MINGLE the name of CHRIST with their incantations: because they are not now able to seduce Christians, so as to give them poison they add some honey, that by means of the sweet the bitter may be concealed, and be drunk to ruin. So much so, that I know that the priest of that PILLEATUS was sometimes in the habit of saying, PILLEATUS HIMSELF also is a CHRISTIAN. Why so, brethren, unless that they were not able otherwise to seduce Christians?


“Do not, then, SEEK CHRIST ELSEWHERE than where Christ wished HIMSELF TO BE PREACHED TO YOU;”

(the above sentence proves they are talking about Christ/Christos Mithras/Pilleatus.)

Interestingly further down, he also mentions Jesus and the anointed stone – HUMMMMM!

You think it might be because Mithras is the anointed from the stone?

He also talks about Jesus and the lamb – there are carvings of Mithras with a lamb.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701007.htm

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I see nothing in this that says "Mithra/Mithras was before Jesus". :rolleyes:
 
It isn't. If it were, it would be "known" by someone and you wouldn't have to scrounge the internet looking everywhere for some reference to Mithras that you end up on the Catholic encyclopedia website quoting a piece of a text (De praescriptione haereticorum) you can't read:
"XL
[1] Sed quaeritur, a quo intellectus intervertatur eorum quae ad haereses faciant? [2] A diabolo scilicet, cuius sunt partes intervertendi veritatem qui ipsas quoque res sacramentorum divinorum dolorum mysteriis aemulatur. Tingit et ipse quosdam utique credentes et fideles suos; expositionem delictorum de lavacro repromittit, [4] et si adhuc memini Mithrae, signat illic in frontibus milites suos. Celebrat et panis oblationem et imaginem resurrectionis inducit et sub gladio redimit coronam."

["But where can be found that place whence comes the understanding that makes all heresies? From the devil most assuredly, from whom all aspects of truth are abused who also the sacred affair of the divine vies with through his deceitful mysteries. He even dabs water [baptizes] on his believing and faithful; this bathing he promises as a removal of transgressions, and Mithra, if I recall this rightly, he signs upon the foreheads of his soldiers. And he celebrates an offering of bread and displays the image of resurrection and tops it off with an offering under the sword [sub gladio/beneath or under the sword is a euphemism for execution; I might translate it as "he crowns this by a fake sacrifice of his life" but that's straying a bit too far from the Latin]

So Tertullian tells us that imitation rites of Christian rituals that are recorded in Paul's epistles are going on in c. 3rd century, over a century after Paul describes this. And you claim this is him admitting that the mysteries of Mithras predate Christianity?

Which, of course, it doesn't.

There is scholarship that suggests that the word "Mithras" is a gloss here, tho. If you try omitting it, the passage makes better sense.

You do know that not only Mithras, but Attis and other mystery religions either popped up or were changed because of Christianity (see Bremmer's Greek Religion) and the emperor Julian was so concerned about Christianity spreading that in addition to attempting to restore as many pagan holy sites as possible he borrowed too from Christianity and from Neo-Platonism to make a "pagan monotheism" that could rival Christianity in its combination of philosophy/theology and religion as well as eschatology and soteriology?

By the fifth century AD the cult of Cybele had even managed to invent some "scriptures". Paganism was syncretic; borrowing stuff was what they did.

BTW I do think "Pilleatus" probably is Mithras. But again, what in that passage by Augustine says that "Pilleatus" predates Christ?

But I fear our friend is merely trolling...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
From The Roman Cult Of Mithras by Clauss:
It should be emphasized that the purpose of this summary account is not to suggest that such ideas were taken over directly into the Roman mystery-cult. On the contrary, no direct continuity, either of a general kind or in specific details, can be demonstrated between the Perso-Hellenistic worship of Mitra and the Roman mysteries of Mithras. The oft repeated attempts to trace a seamless history of Mythras from the second millennium BC to the fourth century AD simply tells us something quite general about the relative stability, or, as it may be, flexibility, of religious ideas. We cannot account for Roman Mithras in terms borrowed from Persian Mitra.

< ... snip ... >​

There is another reason too for thinking that it makes little sense to treat the mysteries of Mithras as but one stage in a longer evolution. The mysteries cannot be shown to have developed from Persian religious ideas, nor does it make sense to interpret them as a fore-runner of Christianity. Both views neglect the sheer creativity that gave rise to the mystery-cult. Mythraism was an independent creation with its own unique value within a given historical, specifically Roman, context.

[ and later, in a chapter titled Mithras and Christ ]

Most of the parallels between Mithraism and Chritianity are part of the common currency of all mystery cults or can be traced back to common origins in the Graeco-oriental culture of the Hellenistic world.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
roger pearse said:
But I fear our friend is merely trolling...

You said that to LegionOnomaMoi. Are you aware that he is not a Christian? He agrees with you regarding the historical Jesus, but he disagrees with you about the resurrection of Jesus, and the historicity of the Gospels.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You said that to LegionOnomaMoi. Are you aware that he is not a Christian? He agrees with you regarding the historical Jesus, but he disagrees with you about the resurrection of Jesus, and the historicity of the Gospels.

In context wasnt that directed to ingledsva?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which, of course, it doesn't.

There is scholarship that suggests that the word "Mithras" is a gloss here, tho. If you try omitting it, the passage makes better sense.

To us, yes. Textual criticism isn't my forte, but on the other hand what I learned was how it was used in classics where one often has almost nothing to go on. I've found that sometimes it seems as if suggested omissions, corrections, or some combination are influenced by difficulties for the editor, not the text, even when the difficulty is ideological (as with Logion 114 of Thomas which, for those who are inclined to think of any possible "gnostic" group as egalitarian and/or pro-feminist, is rather a thorn in the side).

With the exception of NT textual critics (who get to easily identify so many variants as simply spelling errors), we're left with plenty of awkward and or vague portions in our manuscripts and little to go on. I recall at the end of Greek Oratory, after we had finished with the assigned textbooks (the "green and yellow" Cambridge edition of Antiphon & MacDowell's edition of Andokides' On the Mysteries) we went over hand outs for a wider sample including the fragments of Antiphon the Sophist and some papers on whether the two were the same. That debate started Didymus and Hermogenes, and for some reason is ongoing despite the fact that the evidence hasn't changed.
The point (I swear, I do have one) is that like the very creative arguments for relating the 2 Antiphons based on the use of nomos, a lot of problems we'd like resolved have a tendency to "get resolved" by picking whatever resolution one prefers. Just about any given clause, line, passage, etc., can be re-written in any number of ways to improve clarity for the modern reader and/or to resolve some issue. One need only examine the innumerable "recoveries" of the underlying Aramaic of the gospels, the very convenient reconstruction of the longer passage in Josephus on Jesus, and the recovery of "layers" informing us about particular communities behind a hypothetical Q to see how the desire for answers can so easily generate them with or without a sound methodology.


By the fifth century AD the cult of Cybele had even managed to invent some "scriptures". Paganism was syncretic; borrowing stuff was what they did.

I completely agree. In fact, I've come to argue that religion for most of human history has been rather radically different from the concept as it is most commonly understood. Bremmer points out that, in order to describe neighboring religions, Herodotus "uses the term 'to worship the gods', sebesthai tous theous...In other words, for Herodotus the problem of describing foreign religions could be reduced to the question 'which (other) gods do they worship and how'. In such an environment atheism was simply unthinkable. The term atheos did not originate before the fifth century and even then indicated only a lack of relations with the gods." (p. 2). Culture and religion for so many cultures were separate entities only insofar as scholars (both early modern and today's) separate them.

The religious aspects of cultures were functional, communal, political, and familial. They were practices and traditions which were vitally important, but didn't depend on particular origin mythologies or even a particular god, and thus could be rather freely adopted and adapted.

But again, what in that passage by Augustine says that "Pilleatus" predates Christ?

You have to read between the highlighted portions. I think the colors indicate tense/aspect somehow, while the all caps point correspond to a missing critical apparatus that indicates how vast amounts of evidence unknown to all but the precious few with an internet connection demonstrate these words stand for something else.
 
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You said that to LegionOnomaMoi. Are you aware that he is not a Christian? He agrees with you regarding the historical Jesus, but he disagrees with you about the resurrection of Jesus, and the historicity of the Gospels.

I don't really understand the point made here. Do any of us agree with people, even when they are wrong on facts, purely because we share their religious position? and disagree with them on a matter of fact, even if they are right, if they happen not to be of the same persuasion? I don't, anyway. So I don't care what his religion might be. The question is a factual one about the cult of Mithras; what does the data actually say?

Too much religion in all this for me. I'm interested in the raw facts. Opinion is something we can all do for ourselves; but it does nobody any good to get the raw facts wrong. Surely?
 
I've come to argue that religion for most of human history has been rather radically different from the concept as it is most commonly understood. .... Culture and religion for so many cultures were separate entities only insofar as scholars (both early modern and today's) separate them.

The religious aspects of cultures were functional, communal, political, and familial. They were practices and traditions which were vitally important, but didn't depend on particular origin mythologies or even a particular god, and thus could be rather freely adopted and adapted.

May I offer a thought, which is not mine, but which I found in an atheist writer in a library in the days before I got into the habit of noting which books I had read? (So I can't give a reference).

He suggested that there are two types of religion going around; communal and creedal.

With a communal religion, it is the community that matters. You are part of the cult of Athena of Athens if you are an Athenian. If you are not Athenian, you're not really part of it, even if you do worship some foreign Athena. If you are Athenian, it doesn't matter if you personally have doubts about the gods. What matters is the sacrifices, the rituals, the tradition of observance. The priests are like operators of a nuclear power station: it doesn't matter if they believe in what they are doing, the key point is that the community welfare is secured so long as they do. Provided the sun keeps coming up in the morning, the priests are doing it right.

Worries about your soul, spirit, you personally, morals, ethics, etc ... these may not be part of the religion at all. You have philosophers to noodle over all that. Or they may be part of it; it just depends on what the tradition is.

In a way, this is a very tolerant approach. Religion is an expression of the community; a foreigner may make an offering, and it will be accepted, to show he is respecting the community. Priests can be of very low social status in this set-up; or the major families of the state may hold priesthoods, or both.

It's also very intolerant; unless you are born into the community, you will never really be a member of the cult. Some "conversions" are tolerated, but you will always be second-class.

Most ancient pagan religions, including Hinduism, follow this model. This is why the emperors of Rome were priests of the state cults.

A creedal religion unites, not around a community, but around a set of propositions. It's very tolerant in a way; it doesn't matter who you are, or where you come from -- you are a member, so long as you subscribe. But it is also very intolerant; you may be the son of the priest, but if you don't believe in it, you're not a member. Christianity and (in ancient times) Judaism are of this form, although Judaism always had strong communal elements.

He made the interesting point that creedal religions tend to turn into communal religions over time; where belonging to the community starts becoming more important. This is how you get atheist bishops develop; boys who are "the right sort" but don't actually believe a word of it.

The category of "religion" is, in some ways, not a useful one. The projection of Christian practice onto others, from this theory of things, is always going to mislead us in all sorts of ways.

It's a very interesting theory, and I really wish I knew the chap who put it forward.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
roger pearse said:
Too much religion in all this for me. I'm interested in the raw facts. Opinion is something we can all do for ourselves; but it does nobody any good to get the raw facts wrong. Surely?

This issue would not be for this thread, but if you ever wanted to, I would appreciate you sometime in the future starting a new thread, and providing facts regarding where the Bible writers who wrote about Jesus' post-resurrection appearances got their information from.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Most ancient pagan religions, including Hinduism, follow this model. This is why the emperors of Rome were priests of the state cults.

I actually started to go back over not just religious but social structures in general reading about the extent to which Hinduism is a modern construction built through a dialogue between East and West and no small amount of "the projection of Christian practice onto others". I think I pretty much agree with everything you said, and I think I'll find the creedal religion notion to be useful, as I've spent too much time focusing on how community in the past has either absorbed religion or been largely inseparable from it (the point about the different types of intolerance is one I've come upon more than once studying anthropology literature and history, where community dominates even identity, as well as the unfortunate state of affairs of intolerance today thanks to creedal religions). As I've been trying to find ways to look into
1) How Christian villages of the type described in e.g., Cohn's Pursuit of the Millenium, in which communal bonds are as strong as those which lack any creedal religion seem to somehow at least partially divorce the importance attached to creed or belief itself and attach it to tradition and social functions the way communal religions operate (in sociology circles Tönnies' Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft and subsequent models have proved useful but to limited by the typical limitations of social sciences)
2) How the grafting of Christian notions onto other cultures and the dynamics of exchange have created both creedal religions where once we had none yet communal identity, the role of opprobrium rather than religious or even political authority, and other aspects of societies defined by the collective in ways that are difficult to comprehend, coming from an individualistic society.

It so happened that as I was looking into these for social neuroscience reasons I came across a number of studies on the ways in which cognition is so fundamentally shaped by culture, so another tool such as a new classification scheme to try out is always welcome.

He made the interesting point that creedal religions tend to turn into communal religions over time; where belonging to the community starts becoming more important.

"To an extent which can hardly be exaggerated, peasant life was shaped and sustained by custom and communal routine… Social relationships within the village were regulated by norms which, though they varied from village to village, had always the sanction of tradition and were regarded as inviolable…The position of the peasant in the old agricultural society was much strengthened, too, by the fact that...he passed his life firmly embedded in a group of kindred...The network of social relationships into which a peasant was born was so strong and was taken so much for granted that it precluded any very radical disorientation."
(Cohn 55-56)

I would agree that this transition from creedal to communal was standard before, as Christianity initially severed ties, once everyone was Christian the norm returned. The same was true with Islam, with the initial battles between Muhammad and the Quraysh, his people. Of particular interest is the (perhaps historical; it is from Ibn Shaq's Sirat) story we are told of one Amr who (after 3 battles) made the traditional challenge to settle things by single combat only to find his challenge taken up by his nephew Ali (Muhammad's cousin). He refused to fight his nephew because of familial ties, while Ali had no such qualms and killed his uncle. However, as with Christianity, once everyone was Muslim kinship ties and communities were no longer divided by religious loyalties.

I don't think that holds true today, because there are fewer and fewer places that have the kind of communal structures that dominated human history for so long. It's been ~500 years since Luther, and as societies have become increasingly diverse at all levels (from social stratification to the types of communities that exist), individualistic perceptual-cognitive effects have only increased. This thread, the mythology collections that have existed almost unchanged since the 19th century (at least as far as Greece and Rome are concerned), the adaption of various tribal, Eastern, and (neo)mystic traditions to fit a Westernized and/or modernized lifestyle, are all (IMO) at least partially products of a culturally produced cognitive bias: a new psychology, "religion", spiritual practice, etc., is introduced, which starts a series of complex interchanges and the projection of perceptions rooted in cultural cognition, and as with complexity in general we get emergence, such as that of Westernized esoteric "traditions" that are believed to trace back far into a past that never existed.


This is how you get atheist bishops develop; boys who are "the right sort" but don't actually believe a word of it.

On the other hand, militant activism, political ideology, a plethora of new religions (whether they are believed to be new or not), and other replacements for creed have increasingly set in. There is no community strong enough to replace or render mostly ineffective the way there was for hundreds of years during which time Christianity & Islam (the two largest religions with the capacity to divide cultural/communal and kinship binds) would upset cultures by introducing belief systems only to have (usually) a sort of equilibrium in which once again the fundamental and most basic paradigm re-emerged. After all, our genus has been around a few million years and modern humans ~150,000 years, and all that time closed networks of kin tightly woven together into tribes/clans/etc. completely dominated life. Community is just an extension of this, but the larger and more complex the society, the weaker the kinds of bonds that made the return to equilibrium possible become.

The category of "religion" is, in some ways, not a useful one.
It has proven to be an extremely effective method for setting back the already limited abilities of the social sciences to understand social dynamics. The very people who sought to rid society of it frequently based their understanding of society on it (e.g., Marxian social theory and the quickly perverted forms of Darwinism, particularly social, which simply replaced the teleology of Christianity with that of another). I can't think of another category that has so dominated thought and been so inept that it literally created itself over and over again.

But I've rambled enough for one post. I need to go slaughter a bull for Christ-Attis now.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...

BTW I do think "Pilleatus" probably is Mithras. But again, what in that passage by Augustine says that "Pilleatus" predates Christ?

But I fear our friend is merely trolling...

&#8220;Impure spirits knew that Jesus Christ would come, they had heard of His coming from the angels, they had heard of it from the prophets, and they expected him.&#8221;

&#8220;They expected that He would come, but they were ignorant of the time&#8230;.&#8221;

&#8220;And this is a great thing to see in the whole world, the lion vanquished by the blood of the Lamb: members of Christ delivered from the teeth of the lions, and joined to the body of Christ.

Therefore SOME SPIRIT or other contrived the COUNTERFIT that HIS IMAGE should be bought for BLOOD,

because he knew that the human race WAS AT SOME TIME to be redeemed BY the precious BLOOD.

For evil spirits counterfeit certain shadows of honor to themselves, that they may DECEIVE those who follow Christ. So much so, my brethren, that those who seduce by means of amulets, by incantations, by the devices of the enemy, MINGLE the name of CHRIST with their incantations: because they are not now able to seduce Christians, so as to give them poison they add some honey, that by means of the sweet the bitter may be concealed, and be drunk to ruin. So much so, that I know that the priest of that PILLEATUS was sometimes in the habit of saying, PILLEATUS HIMSELF also is a CHRISTIAN. Why so, brethren, unless that they were not able otherwise to seduce Christians?

&#8220;Do not, then, SEEK CHRIST ELSEWHERE than where Christ wished HIMSELF TO BE PREACHED TO YOU;&#8221;

He tells us Mithras was created by demons in anticipation of Jesus, then goes on to say the Priest even called him Christos.


PS. Stop calling people whom don't agree with you - TROLLS!

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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I see nothing in this that says "Mithra/Mithras was before Jesus". :rolleyes:

“Impure spirits knew that Jesus Christ would come, they had heard of His coming from the angels, they had heard of it from the prophets, and they expected him.”

“They expected that He would come, but they were ignorant of the time….”

“And this is a great thing to see in the whole world, the lion vanquished by the blood of the Lamb: members of Christ delivered from the teeth of the lions, and joined to the body of Christ.

Therefore SOME SPIRIT or other contrived the COUNTERFIT that HIS IMAGE should be bought for BLOOD,

because he knew that the human race WAS AT SOME TIME to be redeemed BY the precious BLOOD.

For evil spirits counterfeit certain shadows of honor to themselves, that they may DECEIVE those who follow Christ. So much so, my brethren, that those who seduce by means of amulets, by incantations, by the devices of the enemy, MINGLE the name of CHRIST with their incantations: because they are not now able to seduce Christians, so as to give them poison they add some honey, that by means of the sweet the bitter may be concealed, and be drunk to ruin. So much so, that I know that the priest of that PILLEATUS was sometimes in the habit of saying, PILLEATUS HIMSELF also is a CHRISTIAN. Why so, brethren, unless that they were not able otherwise to seduce Christians?

“Do not, then, SEEK CHRIST ELSEWHERE than where Christ wished HIMSELF TO BE PREACHED TO YOU;”

He tells us Mithras was created by demons in anticipation of Jesus, then goes on to say the Priest even called him Christos.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Yoda said:
Mithras offered and had all of the concepts...
Would you list those concepts, please?

I don't know about "all of the concepts," but if you have been following our debate, then you can see that the church fathers called him a counterfeit, meaning a false copy, in anticipation of Jesus, and point out lamb and blood, and being called Christos.

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