moral question

[Jeremiah]

Sorry, nothing is going to make me want a guy's balls.

You know what I'm talking about.

Alone you are powerless, a victim of your sinful heterosexual desires, but with the power and guidance of Christ you can be just as gay as he was. Fall to your knees and beg Christ to unless his salvation on you. Accept Christ into yourself and feel the gayness flow.

 

[Penumbra]

The deliberate killing of a baby is wrong.

 

[Autodidact]

The deliberate killing of a baby is wrong.

Christians and Jews--you agree with this?

 

[Riverwolf]

Auto, I'm still waiting to see what the Jewish commentaries on those passages say...

 

[Tarheeler]

Auto, I'm still waiting to see what the Jewish commentaries on those passages say...

I know that the commentary that accompanies the reading in the Jewish Study Bible explains it as the custom of the time; many near-east tribes waged vicious warfare and killing the entire tribe, including the children, was fairly common.

And, as someone learning about Judaism, I think it's important to recognize that the Torah was written in the language of and with the morals, customs, and ideas of an ancient civilization.

Just as slavery, polygamy, and genocide have not been an active part part of Judaism for a very, very long time, neither has been the wholesale slaughter of children.

 

[Falvlun]

I know that the commentary that accompanies the reading in the Jewish Study Bible explains it as the custom of the time; many near-east tribes waged vicious warfare and killing the entire tribe, including the children, was fairly common.

And, as someone learning about Judaism, I think it's important to recognize that the Torah was written in the language of and with the morals, customs, and ideas of an ancient civilization.

Just as slavery, polygamy, and genocide have not been an active part part of Judaism for a very, very long time, neither has been the wholesale slaughter of children.

The problem with the "it was the culture of the times" response is that God required the Israelites to kill everyone. This was a direct command from God. It wasn't the Isrealites just going and doing this because they were living in a barbarious time: they did it because God told them to do it.

 

[Tarheeler]

The problem with the "it was the culture of the times" response is that God required the Israelites to kill everyone. This was a direct command from God. It wasn't the Isrealites just going and doing this because they were living in a barbarious time: they did it because God told them to do it.

Hey, if you want to take the Bible as the literal word of God, knock yourself out. I'm not going to try and stop you.

I see it more as the authors combining their religion with the emerging nation and nationalism; it's not uncommon to find national stories that attribute everything, particularly military victories, to God.

 

[Falvlun]

Hey, if you want to take the Bible as the literal word of God, knock yourself out. I'm not going to try and stop you.

I see it more as the authors combining their religion with the emerging nation and nationalism; it's not uncommon to find national stories that attribute everything, particularly military victories, to God.

What is metaphorical about those passages?

Many Christians take the Bible to be the infallible word of God, despite, or perhaps in spite of, the fact that it was written by fallible men.

 

[Danmac]

Then the LORD ... said to him, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.”

You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers.

Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives violated.

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.

At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

Right or wrong?

The laws that govern Judaism are no more observed by Christians as the laws that govern islam. Christians do not observe the sabbath, we do not sacrifice animals, we do not kill people that violate scripture. We are not Judaism. Judaism and Christianity are not the same. How many times do you have to be told that. Just ask an orthodox Jew if they accept the laws of the new testament. Just ask them if they even think the new testament is divinely inspired. This passage is irrelevant to Christianity.

 

[Tarheeler]

What is metaphorical about those passages?

Many Christians take the Bible to be the infallible word of God, despite, or perhaps in spite of, the fact that it was written by fallible men.

I never said there was anything metaphorical about them. I only said I didn't think they were literal commands directly from God.

And yes, many Christians do.

 

[Falvlun]

The laws that govern Judaism are no more observed by Christians as the laws that govern islam. Christians do not observe the sabbath, we do not sacrifice animals, we do not kill people that violate scripture. We are not Judaism. Judaism and Christianity are not the same. How many times do you have to be told that. Just ask an orthodox Jew if they accept the laws of the new testament. Just ask them if they even think the new testament is divinely inspired. This passage is irrelevant to Christianity.

Most of those passages had nothing to do with laws; they are excerpts from the(purportedly) historical account of God's chosen people. In other words, the Bible states that in specific instances, God told these people to kill babies from defeated tribes. The New Testament, while changing God's relationship with people, did not rewrite history. Unless you are suggesting that the Bible is not infallible, and perhaps the Jews got it wrong when they stated that God told them to do all this.

 

[Falvlun]

I never said there was anything metaphorical about them. I only said I didn't think they were literal commands directly from God.

And yes, many Christians do.

My mistake: I was working under the assumption that not literal = metaphorical.

Are you proposing that the Israelites thought these commands came from God, but they were mistaken?

Also, do Jews take the Torah as infallible or are they more flexible?

 

[Tarheeler]

My mistake: I was working under the assumption that not literal = metaphorical.

Are you proposing that the Israelites thought these commands came from God, but they were mistaken?

No, I'm not. I'm proposing that the Israelites practiced many of the same customs as many of their neighbors and often incorporated religion into them.

The Torah shows the evolution of the belief system over time; you can track the gradual changes in monotheism, the shift from multiple worship sites to the single Temple, and the change in customs. These are continued in the Talmud and the numerous commentaries. The shift from the sacrificial cult to prayer is an excellent example: many have put the idea forward that God allowed the Israelites to practice sacrifice because that was the custom of the time; insisting on them forgoing it in order to rely solely on prayer would have been too drastic a change for them.

Also, do Jews take the Torah as infallible or are they more flexible?

Depends on the Jew. But I've met far fewer Jews who use a literalistic view than Christians.

 

[Danmac]

Most of those passages had nothing to do with laws; they are excerpts from the(purportedly) historical account of God's chosen people. In other words, the Bible states that in specific instances, God told these people to kill babies from defeated tribes. The New Testament, while changing God's relationship with people, did not rewrite history. Unless you are suggesting that the Bible is not infallible, and perhaps the Jews got it wrong when they stated that God told them to do all this.

I'm sorry, do you need me to put it to you a little simpler?

 

[Falvlun]

I'm sorry, do you need me to put it to you a little simpler?

Perhaps that would help.

 

[Falvlun]

No, I'm not. I'm proposing that the Israelites practiced many of the same customs as many of their neighbors and often incorporated religion into them.

Um... how is that not saying that the Israelites believed that these commands were from God, but were really just their own cultural practices?

The Torah shows the evolution of the belief system over time; you can track the gradual changes in monotheism, the shift from multiple worship sites to the single Temple, and the change in customs. These are continued in the Talmud and the numerous commentaries. The shift from the sacrificial cult to prayer is an excellent example: many have put the idea forward that God allowed the Israelites to practice sacrifice because that was the custom of the time; insisting on them forgoing it in order to rely solely on prayer would have been too drastic a change for them.

Ok... but how does this relate to the Israelites claiming that God told them to kill the babies? Do you really think that God telling them not to kill babies would have been way too drastic? Remember, monotheism itself was pretty abnormal for the time, and yet God had no problem enforcing that one.

Depends on the Jew. But I've met far fewer Jews who use a literalistic view than Christians.

That's what I thought.

 

[Nothing]

Killing babies must be right otherwise abortion would be illegal.

 

[Tarheeler]

Um... how is that not saying that the Israelites believed that these commands were from God, but were really just their own cultural practices?

Ok... but how does this relate to the Israelites claiming that God told them to kill the babies? Do you really think that God telling them not to kill babies would have been way too drastic? Remember, monotheism itself was pretty abnormal for the time, and yet God had no problem enforcing that one.

That's what I thought.

I'm sorry, but I'm not arguing that God told them to do it.

I probably could have explained my example better. As values and ideas change, so do our perception and interpretation.
The ancient Israelites might have thought God told them to do it; but it doesn't fit with what I see God as today.

 

[Danmac]

Perhaps that would help.

I'm not so sure it would. Your presupposition is obstructing your ability to reason.

 

[Danmac]

Killing babies must be right otherwise abortion would be illegal.

The funny thing is, people like auto are the first to back abortion, but the first to condemn God for aborting them on this side of the womb.