moral question

[Rakhel]

This is what really gets me.

The Israelite nation slaughtered nations, yes. They killed entire families, yes. They even admit to killing infants. We know this. We are reminded of this every time someone wants to remind us of how horrible the Jewish ancestors were and that the god they worship is a horrible belief to believe in. This is something we are not allowed to forget. You won't let us.

However, they were not the only nation to practice this action. The Mongols, the Norse, the Franks, the Romans, the English, the Cherokee, Shawnee, Blackfoot, Christians, Muslims, Russian, and so on and so on.

It is history. Much like world history, we study it and understand that we are not the people we were. We strive to better ourselves by not forgetting the history everyone else is trying to change.

 

[Penumbra]

This is what really gets me.

The Israelite nation slaughtered nations, yes. They killed entire families, yes. They even admit to killing infants. We know this. We are reminded of this every time someone wants to remind us of how horrible the Jewish ancestors were and that the god they worship is a horrible belief to believe in. This is something we are not allowed to forget. You won't let us.

However, they were not the only nation to practice this action. The Mongols, the Norse, the Franks, the Romans, the English, the Cherokee, Shawnee, Blackfoot, Christians, Muslims, Russian, and so on and so on.

It is history. Much like world history, we study it and understand that we are not the people we were. We strive to better ourselves by not forgetting the history everyone else is trying to change.

It's not a stretch to believe that ancient civilizations did bad things to each other.

It's a stretch to believe that the god of the universe was in on it or had any connection with it whatsoever.

 

[McBell]

Killing babies must be right otherwise abortion would be illegal.

What does abortion have to do with killing babies.

 

[McBell]

The laws that govern Judaism are no more observed by Christians as the laws that govern islam. Christians do not observe the sabbath, we do not sacrifice animals, we do not kill people that violate scripture. We are not Judaism. Judaism and Christianity are not the same. How many times do you have to be told that. Just ask an orthodox Jew if they accept the laws of the new testament. Just ask them if they even think the new testament is divinely inspired. This passage is irrelevant to Christianity.

So the god of the OT is a different one from the god of the NT?

 

[Autodidact]

Auto, I'm still waiting to see what the Jewish commentaries on those passages say...

I'm sure Levite, The Knight, or many others of our educated Jewish friends could help with that question, which interests me as well.

 

[Autodidact]

I know that the commentary that accompanies the reading in the Jewish Study Bible explains it as the custom of the time; many near-east tribes waged vicious warfare and killing the entire tribe, including the children, was fairly common.

And, as someone learning about Judaism, I think it's important to recognize that the Torah was written in the language of and with the morals, customs, and ideas of an ancient civilization.

Just as slavery, polygamy, and genocide have not been an active part part of Judaism for a very, very long time, neither has been the wholesale slaughter of children.

And that's a good thing! Progress is always nice.

It doesn't address the theological problem, though, of worshiping a God who commands it.

 

[Autodidact]

Hey, if you want to take the Bible as the literal word of God, knock yourself out. I'm not going to try and stop you.

I see it more as the authors combining their religion with the emerging nation and nationalism; it's not uncommon to find national stories that attribute everything, particularly military victories, to God.

If you take out the passages commanding, describing and celebrating such bloody campaigns, you reduce the Tanakh considerably.

 

[Autodidact]

The laws that govern Judaism are no more observed by Christians as the laws that govern islam. Christians do not observe the sabbath, we do not sacrifice animals, we do not kill people that violate scripture. We are not Judaism. Judaism and Christianity are not the same. How many times do you have to be told that. Just ask an orthodox Jew if they accept the laws of the new testament. Just ask them if they even think the new testament is divinely inspired. This passage is irrelevant to Christianity.

We're not talking about laws, Danmac. We're talking about what your God ordered people to do. Was it moral or immoral of them to follow those orders? Isn't that God your God?

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Killing babies: right or wrong?

Depends. What did the babies do? I firmly believe that killing babies requires good reason. Otherwise it is simply barbaric.

 

[Autodidact]

My mistake: I was working under the assumption that not literal = metaphorical.

Are you proposing that the Israelites thought these commands came from God, but they were mistaken?

Also, do Jews take the Torah as infallible or are they more flexible?

It is not possible to write a true sentence starting with, "Jews do..." Jews do, and don't, and everything in between. Two Jews, three opinions, as we say. Jews are probably less uniform than atheists, if you can believe it.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

"I'm in the clear because my Gods didn't kill kids"

And I am sure all the goats are grateful.

When anything was sacrificed, it wasn't wasted.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm sorry, do you need me to put it to you a little simpler?

You need for it to make sense. It has nothing to do with laws. Your God commanded people to kill babies. Lots of them. Is killing babies moral or immoral?

 

[Autodidact]

This is what really gets me.

The Israelite nation slaughtered nations, yes. They killed entire families, yes. They even admit to killing infants. We know this. We are reminded of this every time someone wants to remind us of how horrible the Jewish ancestors were and that the god they worship is a horrible belief to believe in. This is something we are not allowed to forget. You won't let us.

However, they were not the only nation to practice this action. The Mongols, the Norse, the Franks, the Romans, the English, the Cherokee, Shawnee, Blackfoot, Christians, Muslims, Russian, and so on and so on.

It is history. Much like world history, we study it and understand that we are not the people we were. We strive to better ourselves by not forgetting the history everyone else is trying to change.

Of course, the Norse belief system is not one of the world's major religions, forming the basis for most of the world's people, else I'm sure we would.

My point is not particularly historical, although that's interesting too. My point is moral. G-d commanded us to kill babies of our enemies. Is killing babies moral?

 

[ChristineES]

why would you consider that a trap? unless you hold contradicting values.
see i think it's wrong. did i fall into a trap?
for myself, i would never choose abortion, never had one and never will...
but then again, i'm not a 13 yr old who got raped by her uncle either...

I hate to be rude, but VERY few abortions are done by anyone being raped. Maybe about 5% of them, I would guess.

 

[Subby]

Is killing babies moral?

Are you for or against abortion?

 

[Autodidact]

Depends. What did the babies do? I firmly believe that killing babies requires good reason. Otherwise it is simply barbaric.

Apparently, they were born to the wrong parents.

 

[McBell]

Are you for or against abortion?

What does abortion have to do with killing babies?

 

[Subby]

What does abortion have to do with killing babies?

Ummm, are you kidding me?

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Ummm, are you kidding me?

Abortion is killing(?) a fetus. Not a baby.

 

[Subby]

Abortion is killing(?) a fetus. Not a baby.

What will that turn into?