Morality of the Old Testament

[Ajax]

FWIW, I graduated summa cum laude, have a Master's degree and headed a university research lab for several years. I don't reject academia, but judge it for what it's worth. What are your credentials? Why do you worship academia?

 

[Kathryn]

@Ajax Sorry, don't see a problem with Paul's approach to different people. He WAS a Jew. He didn't want to offend anyone. Oh, by the way, my translation doesn't say anything about deceit or being devious.

 

[shunyadragon]

That insight is relevant to Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
Judaism & Christianity have an extremely violent & immoral basis.

Judaism and violence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From a less biased perspective Judaism, Christianity and Islam have been violently involved in tribal warfare for thousands of years. This is just the latest chapter in the longest war in history.

Facts

(1) Israel and Hamas are intransigent comatents and neither side has seriously considered a negotiated settlement.
(2) Israel's long term goal is to cleanse Israel of Muslims. By the Constitution and Laws Israel is Jewish state only.
(3) The long term goal of Muslims is to eliminate the State of Israel.
(4) US government under Biden has no influence on the war. Trump would take a harder stance against the Palestinians.
(5) As with Russia sanctions and boycotts against Israel have no meaning in an International trade and corporate world.
(6) Israel does not need any foreign aide to achieve its goals.

 

[Revoltingest]

From a less biased perspective....

A thing often claimed, but rarely accurate.

(6) Israel doe not need any foreign aide to achieve its goals.

I don't believe that.
US aid has been massive, political (in the UN), financial, & military.

 

[shunyadragon]

FWIW, I graduated summa cum laude, have a Master's degree and headed a university research lab for several years. I don't reject academia, but judge it for what it's worth. What are your credentials? Why do you worship academia?

You clearly and specifically rejected academics in the assertion of Academia vs God,

You may lifely select academic sources that agree with your agenda, but the bottom limit you reject academics.

 

[shunyadragon]

@Ajax Sorry, don't see a problem with Paul's approach to different people. He WAS a Jew. He didn't want to offend anyone. Oh, by the way, my translation doesn't say anything about deceit or being devious.

I do not believe Paul was dishonest, devious or deceitful. He simply wrote what he believed, He was a Hellenist Roman Jew, which radically deviated from conservative Judaism of the day.his influence determined the Paulist nature of Roman Christianity, which led to the alienation of the Jews of the time.

I do not agree with Paul's beliefs, and unfortunately he did make some anti intellectual statements.

 

[Ajax]

@Ajax Sorry, don't see a problem with Paul's approach to different people. He WAS a Jew. He didn't want to offend anyone.

Well, he didn't say he didn't want to offend anyone. He actually said he did it in order to convert as many people as possible. So he pretended that he was under the law to some and not under the law to others.

Oh, by the way, my translation doesn't say anything about deceit or being devious.

It is from NASB - 2 Cor 12:16

2 Corinthians 12 New American Standard Bible

 

[Kathryn]

Well, he didn't say he didn't want to offend anyone. He actually said he did it in order to convert as many people as possible. So he pretended that he was under the law to some and not under the law to others.

It is from NASB - 2 Cor 12:16

2 Corinthians 12 New American Standard Bible

Well, there you have it. I am reading the New Catholic Bible. It doesn't mention anything about Paul actually being devious or deceitful.

 

[Ajax]

I do not believe Paul was dishonest, devious or deceitful. He simply wrote what he believed, He was a Hellenist Roman Jew, which radically deviated from conservative Judaism of the day.his influence determined the Paulist nature of Roman Christianity, which led to the alienation of the Jews of the time.

I do not agree with Paul's beliefs, and unfortunately he did make some anti intellectual statements.

Paul admits that he was abandoned from everyone in Asia and he was called a liar. (2 Tim1:15 " You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me" and Tim 2:7 "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth"). He was also abandoned by most of his colleagues including Barnabas and Titus.

Biblically speaking, he is also photographed as an evil man in Revelation 2:1-2 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false;".

 

[Ajax]

Well, there you have it. I am reading the New Catholic Bible. It doesn't mention anything about Paul actually being devious or deceitful.

The Greek text is the following Ἔστω δέ, ἐγὼ οὐ κατεβάρησα ὑμᾶς, ἀλλ᾿ ὑπάρχων πανοῦργος δόλῳ ὑμᾶς ἔλαβον."
The words used are "panourgos" meaning devious/cunning and "dolos" meaning deceit.

 

[shunyadragon]

Paul admits that he was abandoned from everyone in Asia and he was called a liar. (2 Tim1:15 " You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me" and Tim 2:7 "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth"). He was also abandoned by most of his colleagues including Barnabas and Titus.

Yes, Paul alienated many when he founded a Paulist Christianity that result in forming the Roman Church, but I am taking a more objective view of Paul. I do not believe he was abandoned by everyone, or abandoned by everyone. He did alienate traditional Judaism. He developed a strong following in the Asia Minor Hellenist JEws and Gentiles.He did make an effort to avoid alienating Rome.

Biblically speaking, he is also photographed as an evil man in Revelation 2:1-2 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false;".

I believe this a very very subjective interpretation of a vague reference,

 

[Ebionite]

Well, there you have it. I am reading the New Catholic Bible. It doesn't mention anything about Paul actually being devious or deceitful.

But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty[pangouros], I caught you with guile[dolo].
2 Corinthians 12:16, KJV

And so be it. I have not burdened you, but instead, being astute, I obtained you by guile.
Catholic Public Domain Version

Cognate: 3835 panoúrgos – properly, a person doing anything to get their way ("anything it takes"). 3935 /paríēmi ("crafty-fellow") is used only in 2 Cor 12:16 where it describes a scoundrel (an unscrupulous person) who will do any evil to "succeed." See 3834 (panourgia).

1388 dólos – properly, bait; (figuratively) deceit (trickery) using bait to alure ("hook") people, especially those already festering in excessive, emotional pain (brought on by themselves).



Also it's implied by the difference between what he said happened on the road to Damascus and what was reported in Acts 9.

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Acts 9:5-6

And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:15-18

 

[shunyadragon]

The Greek text is the following Ἔστω δέ, ἐγὼ οὐ κατεβάρησα ὑμᾶς, ἀλλ᾿ ὑπάρχων πανοῦργος δόλῳ ὑμᾶς ἔλαβον."
The words used are "panourgos" meaning devious/cunning and "dolos" meaning deceit.

Citation from where?

 

[Ebionite]

Citation from where?

2 Corinthians 12:16 Interlinear: And be it so, I -- I did not burden you, but being crafty, with guile I did take you;

 

[Ajax]

Citation from where?

Greek NT 2 Cor:12

 

[shunyadragon]

A thing often claimed, but rarely accurate.

I said less biased. So far your view in your post did not consider all sides in the endless tribal war in history. Other posts and the current trends in US public opinion and the international theater has been to take sides. demonstrated that taking sides in a conflict where there are no innocent parties is the modus operandi.

Take a more objective view of the endless tribal for thousands of years for all concerned. and respond to the whole list,

I don't believe that.
US aid has been massive, political (in the UN), financial, & military.

Yes, aid has been massive, but consider the history, but also massive for both sides aid from Russia supporting the Arab cause through Iran in recent history. There is enough weapons and money available on both sides to fight a dozen wars. The sources of weapons and support for Hamas and other extreme Islamic interests has been an open checkbook.

Itis also unfortunate the overwhelming tragedy of Ukraine is neglected in all this.

As far as the morality in this conflict it is Old Testament tribal morality at play here on all sides,

 

[Ajax]

I believe this a very very subjective interpretation of a vague reference,

Do we know of anyone else who was in Asia claiming to be an Apostle but was not? I don't think so.
Don't forget that Paul teachings differ from what Jesus taught in the gospels.

 

[Revoltingest]

I said less biased.

Again, often claimed....you know the rest.

Take a more objective view of the endless tribal for thousands of years for all concerned. and respond to the whole list,


Yes, aid has been massive, but consider the history, but also massive for both sides aid from Russia supporting the Arab cause through Iran in recent history. There is enough weapons and money available on both sides to fight a dozen wars. The sources of weapons and support for Hamas and other extreme Islamic interests has been an open checkbook.

Your expanded objection now provides
support for my claim of massive US
support for Israel. Thank you for that.

 

[shunyadragon]

Again, often claimed....you know the rest.

Your expanded objection now provides
support for my claim of massive US
support for Israel. Thank you for that.

. . . but you have not acknowledged the issues of all sides that have open massive checkbooks on all sides enough to fight a dozen tribal war based on Old Testament morality.,

Your response is evasively incomplete, and like many an unfortunate one sided approach to blame.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your response is evasively incomplete...

Yours presumes your superior objectivity.

Remember....
You're the guy who extensively argued
with me that I'm a creationist. (I'm still not.)
So your objectivity & judgment are highly suspect.