Mormon Church refuses to bless children of Same-Sex Couples.

[Robert.Evans]

Because gun control is a necessary first step to stopping the heinous crime rates we have here. The US is NOT a theocracy and those like me will never be a part of a 'god fearing country'. Nor will I EVER follow your faith.

I think most of the problem is that you have guns in the first place.

And anything can be 'race.'

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm curious why you think that Lewis. I try to listen to all opinions, even those that get me steamed. No one should have their opinions stopped, however, I would love to see some, like the KKK and the Fred Phelps, that church in Florida..the name escapes me at the moment, I would love to see their speeches of hate and derision and the like stopped immediately. They have nothing of interest, at least for me. But what opinions do you think are more equal?

I was perhaps unclear. I am not judging the rights of someone to HOLD an opinion. To me, that's a nonsense. People will hold opinions regardless of laws, etc, in any case, and attempting to control thought is NOT something I would support.
Instead, I was addressing the sometimes uttered phrase that 'well, it's just an opinion' or 'it's my opinion, so it can't be wrong'.

Whilst we are all entitled to our opinions, it's entirely possible to hold ridiculous ones for reasons of bias or ignorance. Likewise, an opinion can be informed and based on careful consideration. And most people hold both types, dependent on topic. My opinion on the drafting order in next years NBA draft is just my opinion, and for the present at least, it's neither right nor wrong. But I'll guarantee it's more informed, reasoned, and closer to the truth than my opinion on the effectiveness of Florida's tax laws.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I would hope so, because otherwise we just end up with crude anthropomorphism, projecting out our limited human ideas and opinions. Like for example: "My religion is homophobic, so God must homophobic too."

The first part of Encarta dictionary says:
"ho·mo·pho·bic

ho·mo·pho·bic [hmə fṓbik]
adj
having irrational hatred of homosexuality......"

How can it be "irrational" first off (considering basic biology), and just because someone does not agree with the ACT does not mean they "hate" it or those who participate. So your comments are not correct.

 

[Robert.Evans]

The idea that a supreme being would have any interest in what people get up to in the bedroom is ludicrous to me.

Nothing to do with the location, more the act which is an adulteration of the body

To me the behaviour of the Mormon Church here is totally against Christ teachings, it's just petty bigotry, childish school-yard behaviour.

People talk about what it says in the Old Testament, but that is just a dubious iron-age text

So? What is wrong with something written years ago? That is how we learn from our history isn't it.

written by a bunch of patriarchal

So? How would you have run it then? It was natural for it to be run by men. The survival of the fittest.

homophobes,

explained in a previous post.

describing a vengeful and tyrannical God.

Yes, at times.

I have read some sublime ancient religious texts, for example in the Dharmic traditions, but by comparison the Old Testament looks crude, barbaric and horribly simplistic.

And yet it is not simplistic. And, I might add, what is spoken of mostly is the battles of Israel which is the pattern of mankind. And guess what. We still do these same things now. We still have battles and wars, we still rape, steal and we will still answer for it. We have learnt nothing for all the pages of these so called "iron age" writings.

 

[Robert.Evans]

This is a laughably poor attempt to muddy the waters. It always strikes me as incongruous when people rail at liberal fluff (not that I'm liberal, but...you know...painted with the atheist brush), but do so in a completely fluffy manner. Let's just go with a simple definition of racism, okay...

Source : Just googled Racism and used the definition that came up.

By all means feel free to tell me one of the two following things;
1) Based on the definition of racism, indicate when this is appropriate.
2) Indicate any reason you would have for thinking I use 'racism' as a codeword for some left-leaning 'let's all sit around and dwell on our terrible white guilt' crap

It would be easier, by far, if you just addressed me on this, and not whatever liberal biases you think have repossessed usage of the term.

I have no idea what you're talking about... "liberal"??

If you look at some of the older dictionaries, before the definition was shaped to mean what it means now in order to control the masses, it could mean "family", "beliefs", "ideas", as well as the obvious skin colour etc. Therefore any group of things can be a "race". One example given was a "race of solicitors". If you wish to take the modern understanding, fine. But that is only to title people so you can pigeon hole them and demean them and control them. We all have views and expansion of those views through words or acts is a form of racism.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If you look at some of the older dictionaries, before the definition was shaped to mean what it means now in order to control the masses, it could mean "family", "beliefs", "ideas", as well as the obvious skin colour etc. Therefore any group of things can be a "race". One example given was a "race of solicitors". If you wish to take the modern understanding, fine. But that is only to title people so you can pigeon hole them and demean them and control them. We all have views and expansion of those views through words or acts is a form of racism.

Language usage changes. If someone described you as silly, would you REALLY assume they meant you're happy/blessed?
So whilst speaking in a modern setting, I might stick to the modern/common usage. Trying to redefine racism so it's meaningless is an interesting tactic, actually. I assumed you were going to approach this from a more biological 'there is no such thing as race' angle.

Quick question then : What do I call it when my Dad describes black people as 'black b***ards', 'midnites', etc? Because I generally think of that as racism, and it appears to meet the actual definition of the word I pulled forth in my earlier post.
Or am I actually trying to pigeon hole my Dad so I can demean and control him?

 

[Robert.Evans]

This is a laughably poor attempt to muddy the waters. It always strikes me as incongruous when people rail at liberal fluff (not that I'm liberal, but...you know...painted with the atheist brush), but do so in a completely fluffy manner. Let's just go with a simple definition of racism, okay...

Source : Just googled Racism and used the definition that came up.

By all means feel free to tell me one of the two following things;
1) Based on the definition of racism, indicate when this is appropriate.
2) Indicate any reason you would have for thinking I use 'racism' as a codeword for some left-leaning 'let's all sit around and dwell on our terrible white guilt' crap

It would be easier, by far, if you just addressed me on this, and not whatever liberal biases you think have repossessed usage of the term.

To add further: This is from the Oxford. I have bolded some parts:

Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics:
people of all races, colours, and creeds
[MASS NOUN] The fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this.
EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.2A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group:
we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.3A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features:
some male firefighters still regarded women as a race apart
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.4 Biology A population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies:
people have killed so many tigers that two races are probably extinct
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.5(In non-technical use) each of the major divisions of living creatures:
a member of the human race
the race of birds
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.6 literary A group of people descended from a common ancestor:
a prince of the race of Solomon
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.7 [MASS NOUN] archaic Ancestry:
two coursers of ethereal race
Although ideas of race are centuries old, it was not until the 19th century that attempts to systematize racial divisions were made. Ideas of supposed racial superiority and social Darwinism reached their culmination in Nazi ideology of the 1930s and gave pseudoscientific justification to policies and attitudes of discrimination, exploitation, slavery, and extermination. Theories of race asserting a link between racial type and intelligence are now discredited. Scientifically it is accepted as obvious that there are subdivisions of the human species, but it is also clear that genetic variation between individuals of the same race can be as great as that between members of different races

Usage

In recent years, the associations of race with the ideologies and theories that grew out of the work of 19th-century anthropologists and physiologists has led to the use of the word race itself becoming problematic. Although still used in general contexts, it is now often replaced by other words which are less emotionally charged, such as people(s) or community.
( http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/race#race-2 )

 

[lewisnotmiller]

To add further: This is from the Oxford. I have bolded some parts:

Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics:
people of all races, colours, and creeds
[MASS NOUN] The fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this.
EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.2A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group:
we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.3A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features:
some male firefighters still regarded women as a race apart
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.4 Biology A population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies:
people have killed so many tigers that two races are probably extinct
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.5(In non-technical use) each of the major divisions of living creatures:
a member of the human race
the race of birds
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.6 literary A group of people descended from a common ancestor:
a prince of the race of Solomon
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.7 [MASS NOUN] archaic Ancestry:
two coursers of ethereal race
Although ideas of race are centuries old, it was not until the 19th century that attempts to systematize racial divisions were made. Ideas of supposed racial superiority and social Darwinism reached their culmination in Nazi ideology of the 1930s and gave pseudoscientific justification to policies and attitudes of discrimination, exploitation, slavery, and extermination. Theories of race asserting a link between racial type and intelligence are now discredited. Scientifically it is accepted as obvious that there are subdivisions of the human species, but it is also clear that genetic variation between individuals of the same race can be as great as that between members of different races

Usage

In recent years, the associations of race with the ideologies and theories that grew out of the work of 19th-century anthropologists and physiologists has led to the use of the word race itself becoming problematic. Although still used in general contexts, it is now often replaced by other words which are less emotionally charged, such as people(s) or community.
( http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/race#race-2 )

Ahhh...that was more the approach I was expecting. This adds nothing to your argument though. Race is a ridiculous concept, in terms of how it is commonly used, but that's kinda the point. People are people. Assuming superiority over another based on the colour or their skin, the thickness of their accent, the religion they follow or their shoe size is problematic.

Our posts kinda crossed over in terms of timing, too, so if you have an opinion on my Dad (refer to my last post) I'd be interested.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Language usage changes. If someone described you as silly, would you REALLY assume they meant you're happy/blessed?
So whilst speaking in a modern setting, I might stick to the modern/common usage. Trying to redefine racism so it's meaningless is an interesting tactic, actually. I assumed you were going to approach this from a more biological 'there is no such thing as race' angle.

Quick question then : What do I call it when my Dad describes black people as 'black b***ards', 'midnites', etc? Because I generally think of that as racism, and it appears to meet the actual definition of the word I pulled forth in my earlier post.
Or am I actually trying to pigeon hole my Dad so I can demean and control him?

I am merely trying to show that everyone has an opinion and makes judgements. Apparently in this modern world, some judgements are not allowed. They are called sxist or racist. What is the difference in one saying I don't like blacks (for example) and being called a racist for it, or one saying I don't like your views on me for my views on black people? There might be just as much venom and just as much name calling involved. So why are we able to use this word for some and not others, when the bottom line is that we are agreeing or not agreeing with a particular view. Using this quick title of race is just to control people whose views we don't like.
Why is it that we can insult some for some views but not if they have black skin? that is invert racism in itslef.

And by the way, it has nothing to do with "muddying" the waters

 

[Kirran]

Anal sex between men =/= homosexuality.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Ahhh...that was more the approach I was expecting. This adds nothing to your argument though. Race is a ridiculous concept, in terms of how it is commonly used, but that's kinda the point. People are people. Assuming superiority over another based on the colour or their skin, the thickness of their accent, the religion they follow or their shoe size is problematic.

Our posts kinda crossed over in terms of timing, too, so if you have an opinion on my Dad (refer to my last post) I'd be interested.

I don't want to comment on personal things.

ALL things of groups, be it ideas or whatever, is race. In football, they often say in the final that they are "against all forms of racism". Fine. Go ask them if you can go place for France then. They wont let you. Now it doesn't matter what the reason is. They are being racist. Recall, "all forms" of racism.

If someone says they don't like my view they are racist. We are racial as people. That is the way it is. I don't like people using that word to attack others when they themselves attack whilst doing it. Get rid of the titles and explain it. That would make a better explanation and a better world I think.

 

[Robert.Evans]

This is a laughably poor attempt to muddy the waters. It always strikes me as incongruous when people rail at liberal fluff (not that I'm liberal, but...you know...painted with the atheist brush), but do so in a completely fluffy manner. Let's just go with a simple definition of racism, okay...

Source : Just googled Racism and used the definition that came up.

By all means feel free to tell me one of the two following things;
1) Based on the definition of racism, indicate when this is appropriate.
2) Indicate any reason you would have for thinking I use 'racism' as a codeword for some left-leaning 'let's all sit around and dwell on our terrible white guilt' crap

It would be easier, by far, if you just addressed me on this, and not whatever liberal biases you think have repossessed usage of the term.

And now I will quote your own quotation from a dictionary on "race":

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics,

did you get that?

abilities,

Nothing mentioned about skin colour yet.

or qualities

Yet another.

specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
"theories of racism"
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
"a programme to combat racism"
synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice/bigotry, xenophobia,chauvinism, bigotry, bias, intolerance;

So "charateristics" which means "any defining feature" of "ability" etc. Therefore it does not have to mean skin colour, nor especially black skin colour- which is how most would see it in the west nowadays. and if someone called you a racist, you could imagine many dirty looking faces in return. Uncalled for as we are all racist.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I am merely trying to show that everyone has an opinion and makes judgements. Apparently in this modern world, some judgements are not allowed. They are called sxist or racist.

Yeah...as opposed to the good old days when there was...the same issues. Not like 'classism' has never been a thing. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone makes judgements. Some of those opinions and judgements are worth disagreeing with. Perhaps you have no issue with racism. But I do.

What is the difference in one saying I don't like blacks (for example) and being called a racist for it, or one saying I don't like your views on me for my views on black people?

Seriously? Because one view is without basis, and prejudges billions of human beings whilst the other is a direct result of your demonstrated behaviour.
(note: by yours, I mean, in the example you gave, not your ACTUAL beliefs and behaviour)

There might be just as much venom and just as much name calling involved.

Indeed there might be, although I'm not much for venom, personally. But for the sake of clarity, how some people use the term 'racism' has nothing to do with my views on racism, or the simple fact that judging oneself superior for reasons of race is f***ed up.

So why are we able to use this word for some and not others, when the bottom line is that we are agreeing or not agreeing with a particular view. Using this quick title of race is just to control people whose views we don't like.

Bull. Some may use racism as a means of control. That doesn't mean there is no meaning to the term and it doesn't mean you get to label everyone using the term based on the actions of those. Or are all Christians equal?

Why is it that we can insult some for some views but not if they have black skin? that is invert racism in itslef.

Who is we? Leave me out of it. Assclowns come in all colours. I just call them assclowns. This is generally not considered 'racist'. My dad, on the other hand, would call them 'black assclowns'. This has a racial element, no?

And by the way, it has nothing to do with "muddying" the waters

Then you are confused.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

So we should all do that now for you? Why don't you decrease it and show your compassion for us? You must have to increase it to read it.

Because Jo is registered as blind/partially sighted and needs to have the text big so she can read it. The size of the letters doesn't impair our ability to read the text but Jo, sadly, cannot say the same.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Everyone has an opinion, and everyone makes judgements.

correct, that is becasue we are all racist, something you refuse to accept it seems.

Some of those opinions and judgements are worth disagreeing with.

Some.

Perhaps you have no issue with racism

I do. Now define racism. The definition you gave me backs me up. What is your basic thought when you think of racism? I think it is white man against black man. Correct?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't want to comment on personal things.

Awww...shucks. And here I thought you might actually try to tell me what you thought it was he was doing. Because, to me, it appears that he is sure as heck judging other people as inferior due to what is colloquially known as 'race'.

ALL things of groups, be it ideas or whatever, is race. In football, they often say in the final that they are "against all forms of racism". Fine. Go ask them if you can go place for France then. They wont let you. Now it doesn't matter what the reason is. They are being racist. Recall, "all forms" of racism.

They won't let me because they believe French people are inferior to...I mean, they won't let me because they think French people are superior to...
*shrugs*
It could be they won't let me because the competition is being organised along national lines, and they are concerned that people will change 'nationalities' to get an advantage, could it? Doesn't sound 'racist' unless you fudge the word until it's devoid of all meaning. Which still leaves you with the problem of how you would describe...I dunno...the KKK, let's say.

If someone says they don't like my view they are racist. We are racial as people. That is the way it is. I don't like people using that word to attack others when they themselves attack whilst doing it. Get rid of the titles and explain it. That would make a better explanation and a better world I think.

So you are against racism, in the sense that you would not prejudge people based on racial characteristics, but have such a problem with the word 'racism' that you decided to spend your time disagreeing with me that racism is not justified, whilst not calling out others who suggested it can be. Cool.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Because Jo is registered as blind/partially sighted and needs to have the text big so she can read it. The size of the letters doesn't impair our ability to read the text but Jo, sadly, cannot say the same.

I understand that. But she still has to read the screen in order to reply doesn't she

 

[lewisnotmiller]

And now I will quote your own quotation from a dictionary on "race":

did you get that?

Nothing mentioned about skin colour yet.

Yet another.

So "charateristics" which means "any defining feature" of "ability" etc. Therefore it does not have to mean skin colour, nor especially black skin colour- which is how most would see it in the west nowadays. and if someone called you a racist, you could imagine many dirty looking faces in return. Uncalled for as we are all racist.

You don't think skin colour is a defining feature?
Bahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

Operator : Hello, 911. What's the emergency.
Caller : 2 men robbed my house.
Operator : Can you describe them?
Caller : Sure, but I can't tell you the colour of their skin since it is not a defining characteristic.

Of course racism isn't LIMITED to skin colour.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So you are against racism, in the sense that you would not prejudge people based on racial characteristics, but have such a problem with the word 'racism' that you decided to spend your time disagreeing with me that racism is not justified, whilst not calling out others who suggested it can be.

I am saying everything is race, which answers your first point also.

You are having difficulty with this aren't you. I don't think we can go any farther with it. You have your racist views and I have mine. Clearly as racists, we will both think are view is superior to the other, hence the argument/debate/discussion in the first place.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Because Jo is registered as blind/partially sighted and needs to have the text big so she can read it. The size of the letters doesn't impair our ability to read the text but Jo, sadly, cannot say the same.

I understand that. But she still has to read the screen in order to reply doesn't she

And yet you're still complaining about it...