Mosque Near Ground Zero Clears Key Hurdle

[beenie]

Ssainhu, thank you.

I hope you will still feel this way when I continue to express my reservations about Islam. I've been reading the Qu'ran and I truly am alarmed by the general tone of it, though I am also impressed with the beauty of some of the passages.

I'm no scholar - just an average person trying to understand things.

this is a problem. scholars go through many years of schooling to understand the Qur'an; most lay-people can't understand the context in which many "controversial" verses are in.

I know that the Old Testament is full of similar language, so the tone isn't unfamiliar to me. However, I am a Christian, and we balance the fury and harshness of the Law/Old Testament with the grace and loving gentleness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We're far from perfect and our history is as blemished as any other group of people in history - more than some - less than some. I'm not defending the errant actions of some Christians over the centuries by any means.

But PRESENT TENSE I am alarmed by the spread, not of peaceful Islam, but of radical Islam, which seems to run alongside the more peaceful members of Islam, even warring against those peaceful sects.

Muslims are worried about this too. i know i am.

This truly is distressing not for just me, or "my country," or "western freedoms," but also for what I believe to be the great majority of Muslims who really, truly do wish that these bomb-happy radicals would please, PLEASE stop the madness.

Unfortunately, they're not stopping - showing in fact no sign of stopping, from one end of this world to the other. This sets up a knee jerk, yet predictable, negative reaction from many non-Muslims who don't really care about the minutia of various doctrines, political struggles, ethnic divisions, etc - they just see more Muslims somewhere else seemingly raising hell and brutally slaughtering everyone in their path.

i wish there was a simple "stop" button we could press, but unfortunately, until there is huge change in the methods SOME schools teach their children, this will continue. ignorance begets ignorance.

When the violence from places like Nigeria, Malaysia, the Phillipines, China, Russia, North Africa, East Africa, etc starts manifesting in Europe and the US...I mean, sheeze, it's alarming.

The reason why I am reading the Qu'ran (again - I read it through from cover to cover a few years ago) is because I truly want to try to understand the mindset and theology (much of which, as a Christian, I can agree with by the way). I'll be reading along, nodding my head, agreeing, and then suddenly be taken aback by the tone of the passage a few verses down.

I know that the New Testament seems intolerant to some people, but nowhere, NOWHERE is there a call to actual proactive battle here on this earth, a call to go to physical war and conquer groups of people thru violence.

This is what is so unsettling to me about the Qu'ran - that and the continued and persistent calling out of Jews and Christians specifically - in one breath wooing and pleading, and in the other calling them blasphemers and vowing to wage war upon them. I sense a great deal of hurt and anger and a sense of betrayal in these passages - and yet during the time the Qu'ran was being written, and within a hundred years of Muhammed's death, the new Islamic empire extended from the Atlantic Ocean to Central Asia - and much of that territory was gained through aggressive warfare. So the plea of victimization and betrayal seems unsettling to me.

these verses are pertaining to wartime; remember that back when the Qur'an was revealed, Jews and Christians were at war with Muslims. nowhere in the Qur'an does it allow Muslims to attack and kill innocent people, regardless of religion.

I have a lot of questions - ESPECIALLY since I live around and work with a good number of Muslims - some of whom are friends, others who are customers and business acquaintances. Without exception, the Muslims I interact with more regularly and have known for a long time are warm, friendly, polite, and intelligent. I genuinely enjoy getting to know them and working with them.

However, I have had anumber of negative interactions with Muslims I didn't know though - which surprised me a lot. These negative happenings have slowly picked up in occurrance. I am sincerely hoping this isn't a pattern, but I am seeing more anger and what I can best describe as sullen hostility from some local Muslims (not the ones who have been living in this area for a long time, but new or unfamiliar residents).

It's disturbing and I hope it's an anomaly. I want immigrants who move here to love it here, to be accepted, and to accept the local community and people as well.

I am truly trying to understand all of this. I want peace and prosperity for every person living in the United States - I don't want this division.

if you don't mind sharing, i'd like to know the negative experiences you've had with Muslims. perhaps i can shed some light. i have had some bad experiences with Christians too, particularly those who ring my doorbell and preach to me or stand on my doorstep for 15 minutes waiting for me to answer, ringing my doorbell 10 times. last time i checked, i have the right to NOT answer my door.

i don't want division either, and i do my best to be respectful and genuine to all people. and i still think you're great.

 

[beenie]

i thought about this some more, and here's what i came up with.

bear with me, as this is what i've heard in some religious classes i took; it was a while ago, so i'm trying to recall it all.

Islam, as we know, is the newest of the Abrahamic religions. as the Qur'an states, both the Jews and Christians have "gotten off path" in terms of worship and such. it is repeated several times in the Qur'an that Allah had no children, no family, etc. and is a separate entity from us. in Allah's eyes, Christians have begun to revere Jesus more than God Himself. don't get me wrong, this is just what i've heard. as a side note, i know MANY Muslims who do the same to Prophet Muhammad, but that's a whole other story.

as such, the tone of the Qur'an could be seen as coming from a frustrated God; one who has sent down several "messages" through His "messengers"...and has seen His people go astray once again. hence the first ayah of the Qur'an is seen as the crux of Allah's message:

The Arabic text with transliteration and translation in English is as follows: [Qur'an 1:1].
1:1 بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيم
Bismillāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:2 الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِين
Al ḥamdu lillāhi rabbi l-'ālamīn
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds
1:3 الرَّحمـنِ الرَّحِيم
Ar raḥmāni r-raḥīm
The Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:4 مَـالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّين
Māliki yawmi d-dīn
Master of the Day of Judgement
1:5 إِيَّاك نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِين
Iyyāka na'budu wa iyyāka nasta'īn
To you we worship and to you we turn to in help.
1:6 اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ
Ihdinā ṣ-ṣirāṭ al-mustaqīm
Show us the straight path,
1:7 صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّين
Ṣirāṭ al-laḏīna an'amta 'alayhim ġayril maġḍūbi 'alayhim walāḍ ḍāllīn
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

so yes, it does appear that Allah is a bit "angrier" as he relays His last message...it's like he's given us one last chance to get it right, of sorts. BUT that doesn't take away from His undeniable mercy as well. if one were to study the 99 names/attributes of Allah, one would see that the vast majority are merciful in nature...yes, powerful and all-knowing, but merciful as well.

it's too bad that people, including Muslims, like to focus on the punishment and negativity in the Qur'an instead of focusing on the mercy and our triumphs to get closer to Him.

this is where we should focus our energy, not on how Christians and Jews are living their lives. i get sick and tired of hearing speech after speech about how everyone is doing it wrong and how "we" have it right. ummmm, no we don't; just look around.

IMO

 

[Kathryn]

if you don't mind sharing, i'd like to know the negative experiences you've had with Muslims. perhaps i can shed some light.

Let me rephrase my position, because after I wrote that I have recently had some negative experiences with Muslims, I realized that I was assuming they are Muslim based on their ethnicity, accent, and name. Though I will say that it's a good bet that a man from the middle east named Tariq or Mr Mahfood or Anwar is probably Muslim (I know, I know - it's an assumption!).

Anyway, I've recently had some bad experiences with a couple of these guys.

I work at a bank. We have quite a few Muslim and/or Middle Eastern customers. Most of them are pleasant and polite. One in particular is not - and in fact became so angry and threatening that we had to call the police, who stood guard while he closed his accounts (we insisted that he close them because of his behavior).

Every time he would come into the bank, he was very rude to all of us women. His anger literally simmered right beneath the surface in every transaction. We all dreaded waiting on him. He was even worse on the phone - he would yell when we couldn't understand his thick accent. When he came into the bank, he would literally throw his paperwork across the desk, sit down with his arms folded, and stare disdainfully at us while we tried to work through whatever transaction he had. He was constantly picking apart bank policy, arguing about fees, insisting on explanations about transactions (to my knowledge the bank never made any sort of mistake on any of his accounts).

Our manager decided (as she has decided with other over the top rude customers as well) that we didn't need to put up with that - that we would close his accounts and tell him to take his business elsewhere. I mean, he was obviously unhappy. In fact, he obviously DETESTED every one of us.

When he closed out his safe deposit box, he had literally pillowcases full of cash in them. That was odd too. He was absolutely furious that we made him close his accounts - but well - what else was new? He was furious all the time anyway! The reason, though, that we called the police is that when he was told he had to close his accounts, he made a series of vague threats, along the line of, "When I come back in here, I won't be alone," and "You are going to regret doing this."

Another thing that happened recently was this:

I was volunteering at a ticket booth at a local festival and concert, which was attended by thousands of people. The ticket booth was extremely busy. A Middle Eastern man and his family (women dressed in veils, so I'm assuming they were Muslim) came to the event. When the man asked me when "things started," I told him that the event had started at 6 am that morning and events were ongoing - but the concert was at 9 pm. I told him I didn't know what specific time other things were happening, because lots of things were happening simultaneously on the grounds. He decided to buy the tickets and he went on in with his family.

I guess he didn't have a good time, and about 2 hours later came back through complaining about the whole event, saying it was a rip off. At first I was empathetic with him - it was very hot, and personally I thought the tickets were too expensive, unless you were interested in the concert - which he wasn't apparently, since he left before the concert ended. I told him I was sorry he and his family hadn't enjoyed the evening, and I told him that if he went to the website, he would find contact information and he could let the organizers know his feelings about it. I was genuinely trying to give him good advice. He turned on me and in a raised voice told me, "I want you to take personal responsibility for this! I asked you what events were going on here and you didn't know! You are selling tickets - you should know what is going on! You let me buy all these tickets and it was a rip off!"

Wow. At this point, my husband said, "Sir, if you are unhappy with the event, you should complain to management. We're not management - we're volunteers." He turned to my husband and said loudly, "I am not talking to you! I am talking to HER. I want her to take personal responsibility!"

To make a long story short, we ended up having to call security because he would not leave and would not stop putting his finger in my face, demanding for some odd reason that I take "personal responsibility." It was very odd.

Later, he DID call management and twisted the story completely around. Turns out that he's a local pediatrician and apparently he was furious that two lowly volunteers asked him to leave, and when he wouldn't, we called security.

Now - I know that anyone can be rude. But I think what alarmed me about both these scenarios was the spring-loaded seething anger of both these men - directed at women who were truly trying to assist them.


What's your take?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What's your take?

Both are clearly very disrespectful of women, and probably of any one they consider of lower status or importance than themselves.

From what you related I could not establish that this was because they were Muslim or because they were A**holes.

A person displaying that sort of attitude, would be very dangerous indeed if they supported terrorism and violence.

Such people usually play on the fact that most women , when confronted like that, simply give way. This reinforces their behaviour.


As an aside, most people I know called Anwar have been Sikhs. I have never known an unpleasant Sikh

 

[Magic Man]

Let me rephrase my position, because after I wrote that I have recently had some negative experiences with Muslims, I realized that I was assuming they are Muslim based on their ethnicity, accent, and name. Though I will say that it's a good bet that a man from the middle east named Tariq or Mr Mahfood or Anwar is probably Muslim (I know, I know - it's an assumption!).

Anyway, I've recently had some bad experiences with a couple of these guys.

I work at a bank. We have quite a few Muslim and/or Middle Eastern customers. Most of them are pleasant and polite. One in particular is not - and in fact became so angry and threatening that we had to call the police, who stood guard while he closed his accounts (we insisted that he close them because of his behavior).

Every time he would come into the bank, he was very rude to all of us women. His anger literally simmered right beneath the surface in every transaction. We all dreaded waiting on him. He was even worse on the phone - he would yell when we couldn't understand his thick accent. When he came into the bank, he would literally throw his paperwork across the desk, sit down with his arms folded, and stare disdainfully at us while we tried to work through whatever transaction he had. He was constantly picking apart bank policy, arguing about fees, insisting on explanations about transactions (to my knowledge the bank never made any sort of mistake on any of his accounts).

Our manager decided (as she has decided with other over the top rude customers as well) that we didn't need to put up with that - that we would close his accounts and tell him to take his business elsewhere. I mean, he was obviously unhappy. In fact, he obviously DETESTED every one of us.

When he closed out his safe deposit box, he had literally pillowcases full of cash in them. That was odd too. He was absolutely furious that we made him close his accounts - but well - what else was new? He was furious all the time anyway! The reason, though, that we called the police is that when he was told he had to close his accounts, he made a series of vague threats, along the line of, "When I come back in here, I won't be alone," and "You are going to regret doing this."

Another thing that happened recently was this:

I was volunteering at a ticket booth at a local festival and concert, which was attended by thousands of people. The ticket booth was extremely busy. A Middle Eastern man and his family (women dressed in veils, so I'm assuming they were Muslim) came to the event. When the man asked me when "things started," I told him that the event had started at 6 am that morning and events were ongoing - but the concert was at 9 pm. I told him I didn't know what specific time other things were happening, because lots of things were happening simultaneously on the grounds. He decided to buy the tickets and he went on in with his family.

I guess he didn't have a good time, and about 2 hours later came back through complaining about the whole event, saying it was a rip off. At first I was empathetic with him - it was very hot, and personally I thought the tickets were too expensive, unless you were interested in the concert - which he wasn't apparently, since he left before the concert ended. I told him I was sorry he and his family hadn't enjoyed the evening, and I told him that if he went to the website, he would find contact information and he could let the organizers know his feelings about it. I was genuinely trying to give him good advice. He turned on me and in a raised voice told me, "I want you to take personal responsibility for this! I asked you what events were going on here and you didn't know! You are selling tickets - you should know what is going on! You let me buy all these tickets and it was a rip off!"

Wow. At this point, my husband said, "Sir, if you are unhappy with the event, you should complain to management. We're not management - we're volunteers." He turned to my husband and said loudly, "I am not talking to you! I am talking to HER. I want her to take personal responsibility!"

To make a long story short, we ended up having to call security because he would not leave and would not stop putting his finger in my face, demanding for some odd reason that I take "personal responsibility." It was very odd.

Later, he DID call management and twisted the story completely around. Turns out that he's a local pediatrician and apparently he was furious that two lowly volunteers asked him to leave, and when he wouldn't, we called security.

Now - I know that anyone can be rude. But I think what alarmed me about both these scenarios was the spring-loaded seething anger of both these men - directed at women who were truly trying to assist them.


What's your take?

Oh, my God! You mean you've actually dealt with two Muslims who were angry and nasty to you? I bet you've never had any non-Muslims act nasty to you or get angry, right? I mean, in the 12 years I worked in retail, I certainly never had any non-Muslims be total douches.

 

[beenie]

what's my take?

well, I've had non-Muslims yell at the top of their lungs for me to "go back to where I came from", and have had my very Christian ex-neighbor ask me what "my people" thought of 9/11, and have had yet another very Christian ex-neighbor tell another neighbor that I've added to the "Moslem" popoulation "unfortunately". I was terrified for my family's safety after 9/11. you should have seen the looks and under-the-breath comments I received; they sure were full of hatred and anger too. I was 37 weeks pregnant with my third daughter and was terrified I'd lose her somehow. the stress was horrible. that's terrorism too.

oh and I was born and raised on US soil. I am just as American as they are, and I go out of my way to be kind and open with everyone. as a matter if fact, I was friends with these neighbors until 9/11 happened. suddenly we were public enemy #1. we eventually moved out because we were no longer invited to the neighborhood parties, etc. my neighbor actually told her daughters they couldn't play with my children anymore because Muslims are evil. my oldest daughter was told so by the neighbor's oldest daughter. I confronted the neighbor and she shut the door in my face. I simply asked if it was true; I was in tears for my daughters and their feelings.

again, talk about terrorism.

that has more direct hatred in it than those two examples you posted. those guys sound like rude, angry idiots who happen to maybe be Muslim. my examples are non-Muslims filled with anger and hatred for Muslims.

that's my take.

 

[beenie]

in addition to the above, Kathryn...i don't see their treatment of you as a religious insult the way i had these people attack me and my religion.

rude idiots come in all forms and fashions. i know of non-Muslim men who are more misogynistic than any Muslim man i know.

 

[beenie]

may i ask why there is no reply to my posts? interesting; the crickets are quite loud today.

 

[Storm]

what's my take?

well, I've had non-Muslims yell at the top of their lungs for me to "go back to where I came from", and have had my very Christian ex-neighbor ask me what "my people" thought of 9/11, and have had yet another very Christian ex-neighbor tell another neighbor that I've added to the "Moslem" popoulation "unfortunately". I was terrified for my family's safety after 9/11. you should have seen the looks and under-the-breath comments I received; they sure were full of hatred and anger too. I was 37 weeks pregnant with my third daughter and was terrified I'd lose her somehow. the stress was horrible. that's terrorism too.

oh and I was born and raised on US soil. I am just as American as they are, and I go out of my way to be kind and open with everyone. as a matter if fact, I was friends with these neighbors until 9/11 happened. suddenly we were public enemy #1. we eventually moved out because we were no longer invited to the neighborhood parties, etc. my neighbor actually told her daughters they couldn't play with my children anymore because Muslims are evil. my oldest daughter was told so by the neighbor's oldest daughter. I confronted the neighbor and she shut the door in my face. I simply asked if it was true; I was in tears for my daughters and their feelings.

again, talk about terrorism.

that has more direct hatred in it than those two examples you posted. those guys sound like rude, angry idiots who happen to maybe be Muslim. my examples are non-Muslims filled with anger and hatred for Muslims.

that's my take.

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

may i ask why there is no reply to my posts? interesting; the crickets are quite loud today.

Rather.

 

[beenie]

so my question is to the Christians on RF; does your holy book condone this behavior towards people of other faiths or do some people misinterpret some teachings to suit themselves?

for what it's worth, i am not the only one who experienced hateful comments/actions after 9/11. every single Muslim i know did, and that's sad.

 

[Darkness]

You can call it prejudicial or anything you want I really don't care, you can say to a white man anything you want .I do not feel hate towards all Muslims but I am skeptical when I deal with a Muslim until I see that he is different.

Stereotyping and considering someone guilty until proven innocent is, put simply, stupid.

I don't stand in the middle of Manhattan and burn flags screaming death to Muslims and I don't bring any kind of pain or hate towards them but facts are facts!!!

Just as it is a fact that there are Extremist Judaism in the West Bank Settlers' Movement. I should hire a private investigator to check out my best friend, just in case she wants kill all the gentiles.

Yes everywhere Muslims are a majority minorities experience hate.

What you are missing is that is true of all fundamentalist religions. Now, Muslim majority countries are predominately fundamentalist, but South America has a Catholic majority and the abuse of women (especially wives) is common and somewhat socially acceptable. Bill Mitchell (who wrote Voices from the Global Margin), an anthropologist and expert on Peru, once had to stop his friend from beating his wife, and taught the women in the village to understand that domestic violence is immoral and that they do not deserve to be beat. And to be fair, your own Jewish faith, advocated slavery of non-Jews, in the Tanakh.

Now I did not say that its all Muslims fault, what ever are the reasons, few out of hundreds or just your leaders I really don't care, it is up to peaceful Muslims to show a different image and not just sit and constantly say not all Muslims are like that if they really care.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf wrote, What's Right With Islam: Is What's Right With America, in which he says that American religious freedom offers the best hope for Muslims.

 

[Brother Bob]

Let me ask you this Neo=Logic, If you were around in the late 1940's would you have said okay if the Japanese people wanted to erect a shrine next to the monument of USS Arizona Which went down with most of it's crew? I guarentee you, THAT bill would never have passed. Also, those opposing this are not opposed to them building it on another site. Oh yes, and why won't the Iman ramrodding this effort disclose where this money is coming from. Gosh, I hope it's not from any of those people who were filmed dancing in the street when the Twin Towers came down.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Let me ask you this Neo=Logic, If you were around in the late 1940's would you have said okay if the Japanese people wanted to erect a shrine next to the monument of USS Arizona Which went down with most of it's crew? I guarentee you, THAT bill would never have passed.

The interesting thing about your little tirade here is that it brings to mind the unjustified and prejudicial attitude shown towards Japanese Americans in the 1940's. Although they had nothing to do with the Emperors war on their new chosen homeland, they were treated as enemies based on racial heritage.
Is this something you would advocate we do now with those of Middle Eastern heritage and Islamic faith? Perhaps reopen the old 'relocation camps' to get them away from potential Al Quida targets?

Also, those opposing this are not opposed to them building it on another site.

What is wrong with the site they have chosen? It is in the same area of New York (Manhattan) as their old Mosque. And isn't even within sight of Ground Zero.

Oh yes, and why won't the Iman ramrodding this effort disclose where this money is coming from. Gosh, I hope it's not from any of those people who were filmed dancing in the street when the Twin Towers came down.

This argument only makes sense if you demand the same of every new religious and/or non-profit new construction. Baseless speculation on the money coming from "people dancing in the street" is nothing more than bigoted fear mongering.

 

[Kathryn]

what's my take?

well, I've had non-Muslims yell at the top of their lungs for me to "go back to where I came from", and have had my very Christian ex-neighbor ask me what "my people" thought of 9/11, and have had yet another very Christian ex-neighbor tell another neighbor that I've added to the "Moslem" popoulation "unfortunately". I was terrified for my family's safety after 9/11. you should have seen the looks and under-the-breath comments I received; they sure were full of hatred and anger too. I was 37 weeks pregnant with my third daughter and was terrified I'd lose her somehow. the stress was horrible. that's terrorism too.

I am very, very sorry this happened to you. As I've said before, I have several friends who are Muslim and who are very active in our local business community. They also experienced similar things after 9/11. Not only me, but many others in our little circle, defended them loudly and strongly. At the time, I had a pretty regular habit of throwing some big dinner parties and holiday things at my house, and since I am so into theology and that sort of thing, I have many friends who are priests, or pastors, or professors - people who take the study of theology very seriously. I made a point of including my Muslim friends at these get togethers, and we had many spirited discussions with each other over dinner. It was a great opportunity for everyone to get to know each other's perspective better.

When 9/11 occurred, one of my coworkers was a very sweet Muslim Palestinian girl. She was absolutely devastated - and also deeply saddened and ashamed that the perpetrators were claiming to be devout Muslims. My heart went out to her, and our office really rallied around her. We would not have tolerated any animosity toward her from our customers.

oh and I was born and raised on US soil. I am just as American as they are, and I go out of my way to be kind and open with everyone. as a matter if fact, I was friends with these neighbors until 9/11 happened. suddenly we were public enemy #1. we eventually moved out because we were no longer invited to the neighborhood parties, etc. my neighbor actually told her daughters they couldn't play with my children anymore because Muslims are evil. my oldest daughter was told so by the neighbor's oldest daughter. I confronted the neighbor and she shut the door in my face. I simply asked if it was true; I was in tears for my daughters and their feelings.

again, talk about terrorism.

This is absolutely horrible. I know this doesn't help, but my children would have been allowed to play with yours - and you and your children would have been welcomed in my home.

that has more direct hatred in it than those two examples you posted. those guys sound like rude, angry idiots who happen to maybe be Muslim. my examples are non-Muslims filled with anger and hatred for Muslims.

that's my take.

I did not say that my examples were SERIOUS - though I do have more, I won't waste anyone's time with them. They're along the same lines. You did ask, though, if I would share them so you could possibly shed some light on their behaviors. I guess maybe you just intended to counter with your own examples.

Please keep in mind that our country had just been attacked in the most horrific manner - and that our television screens were flooded with images of jubilant Muslims celebrating the event. As I'm sure you remember, America was basically in a state of shock over the whole thing. Emotions were very raw.

This doesn't excuse what happened to you - but I do believe it gives some additional perspective.

Meanwhile, back to my two recent run ins with Muslim dudes: I've worked with the public enough to know that people of every color, creed, race, or religion can be intolerably rude. But I can't remember the last time we had to call the police to the bank! This guy would have creeped us out if he had been a Baptist preacher acting that way (and we would have called the police) - but he wasn't, he was a Middle Eastern man seething with hatred. And let's face it - that sort of behavior is unsettling.

The other guy (at the festival) - I think he was just an arrogant doctor who didn't like a woman holding her own with him. But you know what? Here's what I think bugs me about this so much - if I was in, say, Saudi Arabia - and I knew I was a religious minority and a foreigner - I would do my best to be a GOOD example of my faith and my nationality - I sincerely hope I wouldn't act like some stereotype and actually REINFORCE that stereotype.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The current fight over the building of an Islamic study center near Ground Zero here in Manhattan is reminiscent of another battle nearly thirty years ago. Then, too, ignorance, rage and prejudice threatened to destroy the creation of something intended to help mend a grievous wound and foster understanding and reconciliation.

In May 1981, a jury of architects and sculptors announced the results of a nationwide competition to design a Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, DC. Congress had authorized the setting aside of three acres of National Park Service land near the Lincoln Memorial. More than 1400 design submissions came in, so many they took up more than 35,000 square feet in a hangar at Andrews Air Force Base outside the capital. Each entry was numbered so that the identities of those submitting remained anonymous.

The winner, by unanimous vote of the jury, was Number 1026 -- a massive, horizontal V made from polished black granite: two walls, each 246 feet, nine inches across, inscribed with the names of more than 58,000 Americans killed during the Vietnam War. In the words of Jan Scruggs, the ex-infantryman who came up with the idea of building a monument, "As you looked at the other designs, they were miniature Lincoln Memorials. There was the helicopter on the pole, there was the army helmet with dog tags inside. They seemed so banal and average and typical compared to this."


But many screamed in protest, including two who had been supporters of the idea of a Vietnam memorial and prominent fundraisers for its construction: billionaire H. Ross Perot and now Democratic senator from Virginia Jim Webb, who wrote to Scruggs, "I never in my wildest dreams imagined such a nihilistic slab of stone."


Some veterans described it as a "black gash of shame" and said it was an insult, both to those who had given their lives and those who had fought and survived. Others were further outraged by the identity of the memorial's designer, a 21-year-old Yale undergraduate, Chinese-American Maya Ying Lin. Irrationally ignoring even the simple truth that the judges had no idea of her identity beforehand, the notion that a young Asian woman should be chosen to design a monument to a conflict in which the other side was Asian was attacked as a slap in the face by the bigoted and ill-informed.

As Washingtonian magazine reported, in words echoing the current Ground Zero battle, "The fight was bitter, fueled by emotions that had as much to do with the war as they did with the memorial itself. There were death threats, racial slurs and broken friendships. Memories of that time still spark pain and anger."

Ronald Reagan's Secretary of the Interior James Watt, the same man who wanted to ban the Beach Boys from Washington's National Mall because he thought they attracted “the wrong element,” tried to block the building permit. But eventually a compromise was made. Over Maya Lin's vehement, aesthetic objections, a statue of three servicemen and an American flag were added to the site.


Today, of course, the protests have faded to meaninglessness and Maya Lin's Vietnam wall is recognized for what it is and always was, a simple yet dramatic and eloquent expression of both service and the horrible finality of war. Now a venerated part of Washington's landscape of monuments and tributes, more than three million come to the wall every year, triple the combined number of sightseers who go to the White House and the Washington Monument. Many stop to make a pencil rubbing of one of the names engraved in the granite; some leave flowers and other mementoes, or stop to stare into the polished black surface that reflects back the visitor's own face.
"It has become something of a shrine," Jan Scruggs told US News and World Report in 2007. "It has helped people separate the warrior from the war and it has helped a nation to heal." So powerful is its impact, replicas of the wall tour the country, reminding towns and villages that sent so many of their young to southeast Asia of the sacrifices made and the lives cut short by combat, then and now.


Millions will not visit the planned Islamic study center near Ground Zero (although surely they will flock to New York's someday-soon-to-be-completed 9/11 memorial). But with patience, tolerance and common sense, perhaps in the years to come, when the angry shouts have ended, it, too, will become a place where visitors -- Muslims, Jews, Christians and those of all other faiths -- can peacefully reflect not only upon a great national tragedy but on the centuries of good and evil perpetrated throughout this planet's history in the name of God, ideology and country.
t r u t h o u t | The Wall and the Mosque: Divide and Unite

 

[beenie]

I am very, very sorry this happened to you. As I've said before, I have several friends who are Muslim and who are very active in our local business community. They also experienced similar things after 9/11. Not only me, but many others in our little circle, defended them loudly and strongly. At the time, I had a pretty regular habit of throwing some big dinner parties and holiday things at my house, and since I am so into theology and that sort of thing, I have many friends who are priests, or pastors, or professors - people who take the study of theology very seriously. I made a point of including my Muslim friends at these get togethers, and we had many spirited discussions with each other over dinner. It was a great opportunity for everyone to get to know each other's perspective better.

When 9/11 occurred, one of my coworkers was a very sweet Muslim Palestinian girl. She was absolutely devastated - and also deeply saddened and ashamed that the perpetrators were claiming to be devout Muslims. My heart went out to her, and our office really rallied around her. We would not have tolerated any animosity toward her from our customers.



This is absolutely horrible. I know this doesn't help, but my children would have been allowed to play with yours - and you and your children would have been welcomed in my home.



I did not say that my examples were SERIOUS - though I do have more, I won't waste anyone's time with them. They're along the same lines. You did ask, though, if I would share them so you could possibly shed some light on their behaviors. I guess maybe you just intended to counter with your own examples.

Please keep in mind that our country had just been attacked in the most horrific manner - and that our television screens were flooded with images of jubilant Muslims celebrating the event. As I'm sure you remember, America was basically in a state of shock over the whole thing. Emotions were very raw.

This doesn't excuse what happened to you - but I do believe it gives some additional perspective.

Meanwhile, back to my two recent run ins with Muslim dudes: I've worked with the public enough to know that people of every color, creed, race, or religion can be intolerably rude. But I can't remember the last time we had to call the police to the bank! This guy would have creeped us out if he had been a Baptist preacher acting that way (and we would have called the police) - but he wasn't, he was a Middle Eastern man seething with hatred. And let's face it - that sort of behavior is unsettling.

The other guy (at the festival) - I think he was just an arrogant doctor who didn't like a woman holding her own with him. But you know what? Here's what I think bugs me about this so much - if I was in, say, Saudi Arabia - and I knew I was a religious minority and a foreigner - I would do my best to be a GOOD example of my faith and my nationality - I sincerely hope I wouldn't act like some stereotype and actually REINFORCE that stereotype.

you're correct, i did ask for you experience. i honestly thought you had a bad experience with religious bashing or some Muslims insulted you directly (as in from a religious perspective). i can imagine the discomfort you felt when those men, particularly the one in the bank, was demonstrating so much anger and resentment.

i did want to share my experience after i read yours, because as you can see, the insults and anger were directed intentionally at my faith. of course i understand the emotions that they felt...remember, i too am American. i don't think one life is more or less valuable than another, and i was literally tearing up when i saw events unfold.

here's one feeling i bet non-Muslims DIDN'T have. when i saw the first plane hit the towers, i thought, like most people...what a horrible accident! what happened? did the plane malfunction? how in the world did that plane hit the World Trade Center? then...when the second plane hit, well...a pit formed in my very pregnant belly. it formed because i knew that somehow, so-called "Muslims" were probably behind this. i just knew it. my husband at the time was working a skyscraper building in Chicago, and my fear went straight to him too. it took him three hours to get home (we lived about 20 minutes from downtown), and that pit just wouldn't leave. imagine being a Muslim witnessing idiots claiming to be your faith ramming airplanes into buildings.

my emotions were raw too, and i just wanted to hide. i didn't leave my home for DAYS with the exception of taking my oldest daughter to preschool and to the doctor. i was worried about the treatment i would get when it came time to deliver my baby. i didn't wear a hijab; i wasn't "recognizable" as a Muslim until my name was written or spoken. then to have my neighbors and strangers holler at me...(my husband looks Middle Eastern)...it was like daggers.

that feeling of fear, sadness, disappointment, and pure hatred for those who committed those horrible acts...that is something i hope to never feel again.

so yes, i understand the magnitude 9/11 had on this country...because i too am a proud American-born girl.

 

[Darkness]

Let me ask you this Neo=Logic, If you were around in the late 1940's would you have said okay if the Japanese people wanted to erect a shrine next to the monument of USS Arizona Which went down with most of it's crew?

If Japanese Americans wanted to build a Shinto shrine next to the monument of the USS Arizona, that is well within their right. I have no reason to doubt the intentions of Japanese Americans, who may be just as patriotic as any all-American red neck, and who wish merely to exercise their freedom of religion.

"Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof."

I guarentee you, THAT bill would never have passed.

Are you aware that segregation was still in effect in the 1940's? If they are not going to allow black children to attend the same schools as white children do you honestly think that they would give a damn if Japanese Americans' constitutional rights are protected?

Also, those opposing this are not opposed to them building it on another site.

Are you aware that there is already a Mosque four blocks from Ground Zero? Should it be demolished? The Mosque under consideration is two blocks away from Ground Zero. What is the magic number of blocks that a Muslim group should have legal constitutional protection to exercise their constitutional rights?

Oh yes, and why won't the Iman ramrodding this effort disclose where this money is coming from. Gosh, I hope it's not from any of those people who were filmed dancing in the street when the Twin Towers came down.

Five Dancing Israelis Arrested on 9/11. OH MY GOD! It's worse than I thought. It's a Muslim-Jewish conspiracy!

 

[Kathryn]

here's one feeling i bet non-Muslims DIDN'T have. when i saw the first plane hit the towers, i thought, like most people...what a horrible accident! what happened? did the plane malfunction? how in the world did that plane hit the World Trade Center? then...when the second plane hit, well...a pit formed in my very pregnant belly. it formed because i knew that somehow, so-called "Muslims" were probably behind this.

Actually (except for the pregnant part!) this almost exactly captures my own emotions and thought pattern that day. And from my discussions with others, I think this was a pretty typical reaction.

i just knew it. my husband at the time was working a skyscraper building in Chicago, and my fear went straight to him too. it took him three hours to get home (we lived about 20 minutes from downtown), and that pit just wouldn't leave. imagine being a Muslim witnessing idiots claiming to be your faith ramming airplanes into buildings.

I know that must have been hard. It was hard for everyone - myself included. I was supposed to FLY that day (I have the original ticket with that flight date on it framed, in fact) from Dallas to New Orleans. In fact, I was at my office getting my presentation material together about to leave for the airport when all hell broke loose.

My children thought I was already on the flight. You can imagine their shock and terror when they heard the news and thought their mother was on a plane somewhere. I called the schools to get them a message that I wasn't in the air. When my youngest son's teacher called him to the front of the class (he was 8), he told me later that his legs nearly buckled under him, because he thought she was going to tell him his mother was dead.

Terrible, terrible day.

I believe those events on that day left a large psychological wound in the American psyche. Considering the horror of that day, and the ongoing and perpetual violence and terrorism perpetrated by present day radical Islamists - I don't believe Muslims should be so quick to judge when people are skeptical of their religion or the motives of radicals.

Let's just say that radical Muslims left a pretty lasting impression of their version of Islam that day. It's nice that all Muslims don't believe as they did - but it also doesn't really make much difference when others just like them are running rampant all over the world.

As I've said before, I truly, truly feel empathy for any moderate, reasonable Muslim, because they have to carry the weight of all that baggage caused by the radicals in their midst.

 

[Darkness]

I believe those events on that day left a large psychological wound in the American psyche. Considering the horror of that day, and the ongoing and perpetual violence and terrorism perpetrated by present day radical Islamists - I don't believe Muslims should be so quick to judge when people are skeptical of their religion or the motives of radicals.

Likewise, Americans should not be so quick to judge Middle-Easterners, who are skeptical of Americans for installing the Shah in Iran and creating two on-going and bloody conflicts in two countries in the region.

Let's just say that radical Muslims left a pretty lasting impression of their version of Islam that day. It's nice that all Muslims don't believe as they did - but it also doesn't really make much difference when others just like them are running rampant all over the world.

I understand what you are saying, but I also think that unconscious xenophobia and racism are at play in the American collective psyche. We only associate all Muslims with radical Islam because Islam is distant and foreign. I can name many Christian Extremist groups such as: the Lord's Resistance Army, the Christian Phalanges, the Hutaree Militia, and the KKK. Look at how many gay men are harassed and beaten because of Christianity's belief that homosexuality is wrong. Yet, we don't associate Christians with the KKK because we know so many who are good and not like that.

As I've said before, I truly, truly feel empathy for any moderate, reasonable Muslim, because they have to carry the weight of all that baggage caused by the radicals in their midst.

So, the people who harass and prejudge good Muslims are innocent?

 

[beenie]

Actually (except for the pregnant part!) this almost exactly captures my own emotions and thought pattern that day. And from my discussions with others, I think this was a pretty typical reaction.

it couldn't be the same. you are not Muslim, so there is no way you could feel the fear i did AS a Muslim. i do see how you had terror as well, but it's not the same, that's all.

I know that must have been hard. It was hard for everyone - myself included. I was supposed to FLY that day (I have the original ticket with that flight date on it framed, in fact) from Dallas to New Orleans. In fact, I was at my office getting my presentation material together about to leave for the airport when all hell broke loose.

that would have been quite scary indeed.

My children thought I was already on the flight. You can imagine their shock and terror when they heard the news and thought their mother was on a plane somewhere. I called the schools to get them a message that I wasn't in the air. When my youngest son's teacher called him to the front of the class (he was 8), he told me later that his legs nearly buckled under him, because he thought she was going to tell him his mother was dead.

Terrible, terrible day.

yes, the worst day in American history, and since people supposedly of my faith committed this act, the worst day in Muslim history as well.

I believe those events on that day left a large psychological wound in the American psyche. Considering the horror of that day, and the ongoing and perpetual violence and terrorism perpetrated by present day radical Islamists - I don't believe Muslims should be so quick to judge when people are skeptical of their religion or the motives of radicals.

i never said people can't question radicalism, and i would never blame them for doing so. but to lump all Muslims under one category based on the actions of a few...that's wrong on all counts. Muslims won't tolerate being lumped with these people any more than any other race/creed being lumped together; why should we?

Let's just say that radical Muslims left a pretty lasting impression of their version of Islam that day. It's nice that all Muslims don't believe as they did - but it also doesn't really make much difference when others just like them are running rampant all over the world.

i would call this an exaggeration, Kathryn. i understand your sentiment, but i don't see radical Muslims running rampant in my city, state...hell, even my section of the country! yes, they surely exist, and if i could blast them all to Mars i would.

As I've said before, I truly, truly feel empathy for any moderate, reasonable Muslim, because they have to carry the weight of all that baggage caused by the radicals in their midst.

i feel sorry for me too. i should have the rights of any other person in this country to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...and let's not forget that pesky "freedom of religion" part. people who judge Muslims are as guilty as Muslims who judge others. neither are acceptable.