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Most recent cases and deaths of Covid-19 are unvaccinated.

Ebionite

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Father Heathen said:
So it's "liberty" if you agree with it, but "anarchy" if you don't. Got it.
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No. From Bouvier's dictionary of law:

LIBERTY. Freedom from restraint. The power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature.

2. Liberty is divided into civil, natural, personal, and political.

3. Civil liberty is the power to do whatever is permitted by the constitution of the state and the laws of the land. It is no other than natural lib-erty, so far restrained by human laws, and no further, operating equally upon all the citizens, as is necessary and expedient for the general advantage of the public. 1 Black. Com. 125; Paley's Mor. Phil. B. 6, c.5; Swifts Syst. 12

4. That system of laws is alone calculated to maintain civil liberty, which leaves the citizen entirely master of his own conduct, except in those points in which the public good requires some direction and restrant. When a man is restrained in his natural liberty by no municipal laws but those which are requisite to prevent his violating the natural law, and to promote the greatest moral and physical welfare of the community, he is legally possessed of the fullest enjoyment of his civil rights of individual liberty. But it must not be inferred that individuals are to judge for themselves how far the law may justifiably restrict their individual liberty; for it is necessary to-the welfare of the commonwealth, that the law should be obeyed; and thence is derived the legal maxim, that no man may be wiser than the law.

5. Natural liberty is the right which nature gives to all mankind, of diposing of their persons and property after the manner they judge most consonant to their happiness, on condition of their acting within the limits of the law of nature, and that they do not in any way abuse it to the prejudice of other men. Burlamaqui, c. 3, s. 15; 1 Bl. Com. 125.

6. Personal liberty is the independence of our actions of all other will than our own. Wolff, Ins. Nat. §77. It consists in the power of locomotion, of changing situation, or removing one's person to whatever place one's inclination may direct, without imprisonment or restraint, unless by due course of law. 1 Bl. Com. 134.

7. Political liberty may be defined to be, the security by which, from the constitution, form and nature of the established government, the citizens enjoy civil liberty. No ideas or definitions are more distinguishable than those of civil aud political liberty, yet they are generally confounded. 1 Bl. Com. 6, 125. The political liberty of a state is based upon those fundamental laws which establish the distribution of legislative and executive powers. The political liberty of a citizen is that tranquillity of mind, which is the effect of an opinion that he is in perfect security; and to insure this security, the government must be such that one citizen shall not fear another.

8. In the English law, by liberty is meant a privilege held by grant or prescription, by which some men enjoy greater benefits than ordiuary subjects. A liberty is also a territory, with some extraordinary privilege.

9. By liberty or liberties, is understood a part of a town or city, as the Northern Liberties of the city of Philadelphia. The same as Faubourg. (q. V.)
 
Wandering Monk

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
metis said:
Some may be interested in this:
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Florida will have to provide COVID-19 data to the public again after a former Democratic state representative settled a lawsuit with Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis' administration over the decision two years ago to stop posting information on the virus' spread online.-- Florida settles lawsuit over COVID data, agrees to provide weekly stats to the public
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Interesting, but from what I can gather, this does not cover PAST data, only current.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Ebionite said:
No. From Bouvier's dictionary of law:

LIBERTY. Freedom from restraint. The power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature.

2. Liberty is divided into civil, natural, personal, and political.

3. Civil liberty is the power to do whatever is permitted by the constitution of the state and the laws of the land. It is no other than natural lib-erty, so far restrained by human laws, and no further, operating equally upon all the citizens, as is necessary and expedient for the general advantage of the public. 1 Black. Com. 125; Paley's Mor. Phil. B. 6, c.5; Swifts Syst. 12

4. That system of laws is alone calculated to maintain civil liberty, which leaves the citizen entirely master of his own conduct, except in those points in which the public good requires some direction and restrant. When a man is restrained in his natural liberty by no municipal laws but those which are requisite to prevent his violating the natural law, and to promote the greatest moral and physical welfare of the community, he is legally possessed of the fullest enjoyment of his civil rights of individual liberty. But it must not be inferred that individuals are to judge for themselves how far the law may justifiably restrict their individual liberty; for it is necessary to-the welfare of the commonwealth, that the law should be obeyed; and thence is derived the legal maxim, that no man may be wiser than the law.

5. Natural liberty is the right which nature gives to all mankind, of diposing of their persons and property after the manner they judge most consonant to their happiness, on condition of their acting within the limits of the law of nature, and that they do not in any way abuse it to the prejudice of other men. Burlamaqui, c. 3, s. 15; 1 Bl. Com. 125.

6. Personal liberty is the independence of our actions of all other will than our own. Wolff, Ins. Nat. §77. It consists in the power of locomotion, of changing situation, or removing one's person to whatever place one's inclination may direct, without imprisonment or restraint, unless by due course of law. 1 Bl. Com. 134.

7. Political liberty may be defined to be, the security by which, from the constitution, form and nature of the established government, the citizens enjoy civil liberty. No ideas or definitions are more distinguishable than those of civil aud political liberty, yet they are generally confounded. 1 Bl. Com. 6, 125. The political liberty of a state is based upon those fundamental laws which establish the distribution of legislative and executive powers. The political liberty of a citizen is that tranquillity of mind, which is the effect of an opinion that he is in perfect security; and to insure this security, the government must be such that one citizen shall not fear another.

8. In the English law, by liberty is meant a privilege held by grant or prescription, by which some men enjoy greater benefits than ordiuary subjects. A liberty is also a territory, with some extraordinary privilege.

9. By liberty or liberties, is understood a part of a town or city, as the Northern Liberties of the city of Philadelphia. The same as Faubourg. (q. V.)
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I'm well aware the the dictionary definition, but that doesn't clear up your inconsistencies.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Ebionite said:
So you're making up your own definition of whine like you did for liberty?
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Go ahead, tell me how exactly I'm defining anything differently.

I suspect that people who whined about masks and vaccines probably don't cover their mouth when they cough or sneeze. Probably don't wipe or wash their hands after using the restroom, either.
 
Unfettered

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Father Heathen said:
But they have an inherent right to transmit infectious diseases?
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If you are asserting this, I disagree.
Father Heathen said:
Both behaviors endanger others.
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Agreed. Well, when they actually do, anyway.
Father Heathen said:
If the government isn't sovereign over the body, then I assume you're pro-choice when it comes to reproductive freedom, as well as pro trans rights?
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The "trans rights" question makes no sense to me. I understand that all human beings have the same natural rights and, in a given society, everyone should have the same civil rights. I don't believe that any faction-based natural rights exist, nor that faction-based civil rights are valid. I may be misunderstanding what you're asking, though.

On the pro-choice question, would you define what "pro-choice" means, in your understanding?
 
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Ebionite

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Unfettered said:
I think we may have been down this road before? Human rights = natural rights. That's my understanding.
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You're wrong. Men have natural rights, humans only have human rights. Human rights are fictions because the human condition has no ethical basis.

Those rights then which God and nature have established, and are therefore called natural rights, such as are life and liberty, need not the aid of human laws to be more effectually invested in every man than they are; neither do they receive any additional strength when declared by the municipal laws to be inviolable. ~ Blackstone

Definition of "person" from Black's Dictionary of Law, 2nd edition:

PERSON. A man considered according to the rank he holds in society, with all the rights to which the place he holds entitles him, and the duties which it imposes. 1 Bouv. Inst. no. 137. A human being considered as capable of having rights and of being charged with duties; while a "thing" is the object over which rights may be exercised. - Artificial persons. Such as are created and devised by law for the purposes of society and government, called "corporations" or "bodies politic." - Natural persons. Such as are formed by nature, as distinguished from artificial persons, or corporations. - Private person. An individual who is not an incumbent of an office.
 
Unfettered

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Ebionite said:
You're wrong. Men have natural rights, humans only have human rights. Human rights are fictions because the human condition has no ethical basis.

Those rights then which God and nature have established, and are therefore called natural rights, such as are life and liberty, need not the aid of human laws to be more effectually invested in every man than they are; neither do they receive any additional strength when declared by the municipal laws to be inviolable. ~ Blackstone

Definition of "person" from Black's Dictionary of Law, 2nd edition:

PERSON. A man considered according to the rank he holds in society, with all the rights to which the place he holds entitles him, and the duties which it imposes. 1 Bouv. Inst. no. 137. A human being considered as capable of having rights and of being charged with duties; while a "thing" is the object over which rights may be exercised. - Artificial persons. Such as are created and devised by law for the purposes of society and government, called "corporations" or "bodies politic." - Natural persons. Such as are formed by nature, as distinguished from artificial persons, or corporations. - Private person. An individual who is not an incumbent of an office.
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Do you agree that the following represents your understanding accurately?

Human rights = "civil" rights (associated with a particular society)?
 
Ebionite

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Unfettered said:
Do you agree that the following represents your understanding accurately?

Human rights = "civil" rights (associated with a particular society)?
Click to expand...
No, human rights are associated with the universalist doctrine of Rome and are defined by the U.N.. Civil rights are the rights of civil society, like Hobbes' social contract and are particular to each individual society as you say.
 
Unfettered

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Ebionite said:
No, human rights are associated with the universalist doctrine of Rome and are defined by the U.N.. Civil rights are the rights of civil society, like Hobbes' social contract and are particular to each individual society as you say.
Click to expand...
So, very succinctly, do you mind filling the blank for me?

Natural Rights = life and liberty, etc
Human Rights = ___________________________ (examples)
Civil Rights = the rights of civil society
 
Ebionite

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Unfettered said:
So, very succinctly, do you mind filling the blank for me?

Natural Rights = life and liberty, etc
Human Rights = ___________________________ (examples)
Civil Rights = Civil rights are the rights of civil society
Click to expand...
Human rights are defined here:

www.un.org

Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations

A milestone document in the history of human rights, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights set out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected. It has been translated into over 500 languages.
www.un.org www.un.org
 
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