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Muhammad said Christians are exalted until Judgement Day, why?

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I am saying use only Quran. Only Quran is Authoritative.
Hadithes are not Authoritative. But there is guide in them, when used in the light if the Quran.
So, how to use Hadith?


To interpret an unclear verse of Quran, use a Hadith, if available.

And then you decide what is clear and unclear in Quran, so pick and choose, like I said, which card to play by your caprice.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
And then you decide what is clear and unclear in Quran, so pick and choose, like I said, which card to play by your caprice.
When a Verse can be understood in different ways, it is not clear what is intended. Now, we can use a Hadith to see, how the Prophet or Imams understood it.

For example, the verse:

"He brings forth the living from the dead and the dead from the living. And He gives life to the earth after its death..."
Al-Rum 19

It may not be clear, what Allah means by "bringing dead from living".
Now, we can see how Imams explained it.

Or for example, Quran says, Seal of Prophets. We can now go and see, if an Imam explained why Muhammad is called Seal of Prophets.
 

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When a Verse can be understood in different ways, it is not clear what is intended. Now, we can use a Hadith to see, how the Prophet or Imams understood it.

For example, the verse:

"He brings forth the living from the dead and the dead from the living. And He gives life to the earth after its death..."
Al-Rum 19

It may not be clear, what Allah means by "bringing dead from living".
Now, we can see how Imams explained it.

Or for example, Quran says, Seal of Prophets. We can now go and see, if an Imam explained why Muhammad is called Seal of Prophets.
Religion is a game for you. Keep playing your game. You deceive yourself and only distance people from your religion. No one is buying your sophistry and ways.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Do you know the grammar reasons why a kasra is used and why a fatha is used for same word, for example in:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَاةِ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ ۚ وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُوا ۚ وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ مَرْضَىٰ أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنْكُمْ مِنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لَامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَلَمْ تَجِدُوا مَاءً فَتَيَمَّمُوا صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُوا بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ مِنْهُ ۚ مَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ مِنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَٰكِنْ يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهِّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ | O you who have faith! When you stand up for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe a part of your heads and your feet, up to the ankles. If you are junub, purify yourselves. But if you are sick, or on a journey, or any of you has come from the toilet, or you have touched women, and you cannot find water, then make tayammum with clean ground and wipe a part of your faces and your hands with it. Allah does not desire to put you to hardship, but He desires to purify you, and to complete His blessing upon you so that you may give thanks. | Al-Maaida : 6

I would do research into that. Otherwise, I've answered your question. You don't know Arabic and pretending you know something about this word others do not which is not true.

Feel free to explain.
 

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Feel free to explain.
When partial, it's kasra. When whole it's fatha. Since we only do part of our heads, it is kasra, but since we do from feet to ankle (all of it) it's fatha. The word hands, there is has a fatha version and kasra version in the same verse. This is because in first part, it means the entirety of hands till elbow (all that area), while dirt, you only do partial part of arm/hands, and part of face. Face is also with a fatha in start because we wash all of the face, yet with tayamum, it's partial so it uses a kasra.

Face is the same word, fatha is for whole of it and kasra is for part of it.
 

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So, how do you explain the question in OP?
Two possibilities:

1.

Ibrahim (a) is called a follower (shia) of Nuh (a) (see Surah Saffat). That's not a problem even if many Prophets (a) per Quran existed after Nuh (a) and many Ahlulbayts existed after Nuh's (a) Ahlulbayt. And certainly there is a verse that shows is the case. There were many generations between Nuh (A) and Ibrahim (a) that were destroyed and so many Ahlulbayts (a).

So by following Mohammad (s) we are following Isa (a) type meaning.

2.

If it means direct following it can be with the return of Isa (a), Isa (a) will have direct followers and lead them to the Mahdi (a).
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Two possibilities:

1.

Ibrahim (a) is called a follower (shia) of Nuh (a) (see Surah Saffat). That's not a problem even if many Prophets (a) per Quran existed after Nuh (a) and many Ahlulbayts existed after Nuh's (a) Ahlulbayt. And certainly there is a verse that shows is the case. There were many generations between Nuh (A) and Ibrahim (a) that were destroyed and so many Ahlulbayts (a).

So by following Mohammad (s) we are following Isa (a) type meaning.


Can you quote a verse or Hadith that says, the Ummah of Muhammad are followers of Jesus?


2.

If it means direct following it can be with the return of Isa (a), Isa (a) will have direct followers and lead them to the Mahdi (a).

But it says "till Day of Resurrection". So, if Day of Resurrection has not come, as you believe, right now, there are followers of Jesus. If you had to wait till return of Jesus, then there would have been an interruption, meaning, currenly there is no followers of Jesus, till when Jesus returns. But that's not what the verse says.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
When partial, it's kasra. When whole it's fatha. Since we only do part of our heads, it is kasra, but since we do from feet to ankle (all of it) it's fatha. The word hands, there is has a fatha version and kasra version in the same verse. This is because in first part, it means the entirety of hands till elbow (all that area), while dirt, you only do partial part of arm/hands, and part of face. Face is also with a fatha in start because we wash all of the face, yet with tayamum, it's partial so it uses a kasra.

Face is the same word, fatha is for whole of it and kasra is for part of it.

Interesting, I didn't know that.
So, now, how would knowing this, can help, in understanding the Meaning of the Khaatam?
 

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But it says "till Day of Resurrection". So, if Day of Resurrection has not come, as you believe, right now, there are followers of Jesus. If you had to wait till return of Jesus, then there would have been an interruption, meaning, currenly there is no followers of Jesus, till when Jesus returns. But that's not what the verse says.

It doesn't say you will have followers until day of Qiyama. It says it will heighten his followers over disbelievers until the day of judgment.
 

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Can you quote a verse or Hadith that says, the Ummah of Muhammad are followers of Jesus?

There are many verses saying we been enjoined to follow creed of Ibrahim (a) or enjoined same religion of Nuh (a), Ibrahim (a), Musa (a), Isa (a) and Mohammad (s).

And like I said Ibrahim (a) is said to be a follower of Nuh (a).
 

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Interesting, I didn't know that.
So, now, how would knowing this, can help, in understanding the Meaning of the Khaatam?

Well, the cup in the verse I quoted is a metaphorically drink. It's saying we should not compete for the world (dunya) or women or wealth or what not, but rather for this drink. Now it would not make sense if we got the whole drink, then competition doesn't make sense either. So it's partial of this drink which the final end is Musk. This metaphorical spiritual language and recall the drink talked about in Du'a Nudba to be given by hands of Imam Mahdi (a) himself.

The Kawthar is a reality that unites the next world, Mohammad (s) and God and why God condemns anyone who desires the life of this world to hell.

At the end, it's saying this what we should compete for. But as we all have different capacities to drink from this cup, it uses a kasra, but this is the final end of the drink, the journey, the blessings are complete and the light is complete. Of course journey of God continues forever, but each gains from drink to their capacity.

Now Mohammad (s) being final of Nabiyeen, you would not use kasra, but fatha, because it's not part of Mohammad (s) that is the final of the Nabiyeen.

But you were asking for finality seal type meaning, and here it is. It's the same word.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
It doesn't say you will have followers until day of Qiyama. It says it will heighten his followers over disbelievers until the day of judgment.

Right. But, Jesus followers must exist till Day of Resurrection for this verse to be true. If there are currently no followers of Jesus, then how can it be said they are hightened over disbelievers?
Moreover, Christians are disbelievers themselves, as they disbelieve in Quran, and Muhammad.
 

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Right. But, Jesus followers must exist till Day of Resurrection for this verse to be true. If there are currently no followers of Jesus, then how can it be said they are hightened over disbelievers?
Moreover, Christians are disbelievers themselves, as they disbelieve in Quran, and Muhammad.
You are misconstruing the language. It's saying whoever follows you will be heightened over those who disbelieve until the day of judgment. It doesn't imply or say there will be followers till day of Qiyama at all.
 

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Premium Member
Moreover, Christians are disbelievers themselves, as they disbelieve in Quran, and Muhammad.

The believers count as followers of Isa (a) just as Ibrahim (a) is called a follower of Nuh (a). You are looking and building on unclearness rather then building knowledge of Quran on what is clear.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Well, the cup in the verse I quoted is a metaphorically drink. It's saying we should not compete for the world (dunya) or women or wealth or what not, but rather for this drink. Now it would not make sense if we got the whole drink, then competition doesn't make sense either. So it's partial of this drink which the final end is Musk. This metaphorical spiritual language and recall the drink talked about in Du'a Nudba to be given by hands of Imam Mahdi (a) himself.

The Kawthar is a reality that unites the next world, Mohammad (s) and God and why God condemns anyone who desires the life of this world to hell.

At the end, it's saying this what we should compete for. But as we all have different capacities to drink from this cup, it uses a kasra, but this is the final end of the drink, the journey, the blessings are complete and the light is complete. Of course journey of God continues forever, but each gains from drink to their capacity.

Now Mohammad (s) being final of Nabiyeen, you would not use kasra, but fatha, because it's not part of Mohammad (s) that is the final of the Nabiyeen.

But you were asking for finality seal type meaning, and here it is. It's the same word.

I am saying, Quran is Arabic.
If the word Khaatam means Last, then in Arab language there must be some examples where people in their daily conversations or poetry or whatever else, use that word, with the intention to mean Last.
So, if Khaatam means last, why we cannot find an example in Arab language where it means Last?

For example, let's say you want to say,
The Last king of Persia was Pahlavi.

If you say this in Arabic, can you use the word Khaatam?
Or for example, you want to say, Last day of the week is Friday. Can you say this sentence in Arabic with Khaatam?

Why not? Why we cannot fond another example where this exact form Khaatam, means last?
I think it is a fair question, don't you think so?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
You are misconstruing the language. It's saying whoever follows you will be heightened over those who disbelieve until the day of judgment. It doesn't imply or say there will be followers till day of Qiyama at all.

Quran 3:55

"God said, "Jesus, I will cause you to die and raise you up to me, and purify you from those who denied the truth, and I will exalt your followers over those who deny you until the Resurrection Day. Then you all will return to me, and I will judge between you in matters about which you disagree."
 

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Premium Member
I am saying, Quran is Arabic.
If the word Khaatam means Last, then in Arab language there must be some examples where people in their daily conversations or poetry or whatever else, use that word, with the intention to mean Last.
So, if Khaatam means last, why we cannot find an example in Arab language where it means Last?

For example, let's say you want to say,
The Last king of Persia was Pahlavi.

If you say this in Arabic, can you use the word Khaatam?
Or for example, you want to say, Last day of the week is Friday. Can you say this sense in Arabic with Khaatam?

Why not? Why we cannot fond another example where this exact form Khaatam, means last?
I think it is a fair question, don't you think so?

Last doesn't always mean final. Akher is what actually would be ambiguous. It can mean he is the last at the moment. Final means there cannot be one after.

You asked for example, and I showed you a verse.
 

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Quran 3:55

"God said, "Jesus, I will cause you to die and raise you up to me, and purify you from those who denied the truth, and I will exalt your followers over those who deny you until the Resurrection Day. Then you all will return to me, and I will judge between you in matters about which you disagree."

Yes, it doesn't mean there is never interruption without followers. But say it does mean that, believers count as followers of Isa (a) just as Ibrahim (a) is called follower of Nuh (a).
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Last doesn't always mean final. Akher is what actually would be ambiguous. It can mean he is the last at the moment. Final means there cannot be one after.

You asked for example, and I showed you a verse.


Sorry, I missed the verse. Which verse was it?
 
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