Muhammad The Greatest: A comparative study

[Judgment]

Response: The punishment of stoning to death was justified in the past by all the prophets but today, the qur'an only allows 100 lashes for the crime. Yet if Allah wanted the punishment of stoning to death for the certain crime (sex outside of marriage) to continue, I say that the punishment is justified. Seems you disagree. I'm curious as to why myself. I've seen you discussing this with someone previously on the thread but I was too buisy responding to others so I didn't catch your response.

Any prophet that said such a thing is a false prophet.

100 lashes for this perceived crime is barbaric - The stoning part is beyond barbaric and both should be sins.

That you believe that death is justified for having sex outside of marriage means that you are dangerous to all of mankind.

 

[ProudMuslim]

and personally i think some Muslims are Islams worst enemy.

Now that i wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[Fatihah]

Good for them the 4 i mean not the millions that are born into Islam ,and personally i think some Muslims are Islams worst enemy.

Response: let's not forget the millions who convert to islam as well.

conspiracy ? what Conspiracy?

Response: The west's conspiracy to continue to make islam look bad.

 

[Fatihah]

Any prophet that said such a thing is a false prophet.

100 lashes for this perceived crime is barbaric - The stoning part is beyond barbaric and both should be sins.

That you believe that death is justified for having sex outside of marriage means that you are dangerous to all of mankind.

Response: Those who commit the crime of adultery or fornication are the dangerous ones.

 

[Imagist]

Now if a person is considered a scholar and they interpret something wrong, then to say that the scholar got it wrong does not make sense. The person was never a scholar to begin with. That's like me claiming to be a mathematician and don't know what 2+2 is. To say that I am a mathematician who got it wrong does not make sense. I was never a mathematician in the first place.

We're talking about entirely different levels of mistakes here. 2 + 2 = 4 is a very widely accepted and incontrovertible fact. To run with the mathematician metaphor - there's still some disagreement on the Riemann hypothesis. If it turns out that the Riemann hypothesis proves correct, that doesn't make all the mathematicians who thought it was incorrect not mathematicians.

A scholar can be wrong. A scholar can have an opinion and that opinion can be wrong. That does not invalidate his scholarship. But if a person says that they are right in what they know, even a scholar in what they say is right when they are actually wrong, then to say that the scholar is wrong doesn't make sense. They were never a scholar to begin with. It makes more sense to say that the person is wrong.

Emphasis mine: nobody is saying that, so your entire point is moot.

Your argument on this subject so far has amounted to:

1. I am right.
2. If a scholar doesn't agree with me, (s)he isn't actually a scholar.
3. The evidence you cite is written by scholars who don't agree with me.
4. Therefore, those scholars aren't actually scholars.
5. Therefore, I feel free to disregard your evidence.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Response: Those who commit the crime of adultery or fornication are the dangerous ones.

Yeah, just look at how many adulterers end up strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up a bunch of innocent people. And think back on all the stories of fornicaters hijacking planes and flying them into buildings. These sick criminals must be stopped!

 

[Imagist]

So according to your response above, it is reasonable to assume that the collection of Tabari is true because, and these are your words, "We don't have any evidence of Muhammed's behavior other than texts written near the time of Muhammed, so in a discussion of whether or not we should emulate Muhammed's behavior, it is reasonable to assume that these texts are true".

That is your reason? Just because something was written down during his lifetime it is reasonable to assume it's true? One can clearly see the how illogical this is.

Okay, let's try a proof by contradiction: let's say that hypothetically none of the ancient texts about Muhammed are true. This leaves us with nothing at all about Muhammed, not even his name. For all practical purposes, Muhammed doesn't exist. This being the case, why are we having this argument?

Personally, I believe that Muhammed existed. But I ask you, since you discard these ancient texts, how do you know Muhammed existed?

Now for my evidence. Let me first give you a scenario. I make the claim to you and say that a basketball can't bounce. You beg to differ and claim that a basketball can bounce. So I begin to provide evidence from some historian and scholars that say that the basketball can't bounce. Likewise, you provide evidence for you case in the same manner. So what is the result? How do we determine whose evidence is correct?

Well here's a suggestion. What better way to know if a basketball will bounce than to get a basketball and bounce it yourself!!! In other words, test the logic!! What can be more logical than that?

That is the key. When a scientist discovers the cure for a certain illness works, how did they know that the medicine will work? By testing medicine. The medicine is created out of their own logic. So if the medicine is correct than the logic behind it must be correct.

So let's apply the same to our situation. My argument is simple but would be very difficult to sum up in this one post so my evidence will be based on every question you pose. So why is it that your evidence is wrong and what proof do I have that it is wrong? Simple. Because Allah(swt) said so. If this evidence is not enough, feel free to ask for more. It is now up to you to hammer away with any questions you feel is necessary to gain evidence for my claim. I insist.

Please provide evidence that Allah said so. In fact, please provide evidence that Allah said ANYTHING. In this evidence, it would be pointless for you to reference any text or external links, since you don't believe that these are legitimate sources.

I'll also present a counter-claim. Why was Muhammed a pedophile, a murderer, and a quack physician? Simple. Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster said so. If this evidence is not enough, feel free to ask for more. It is now up to you to hammer away with any questions you feel are necessary to gain evidence for my claim.

 

[Imagist]

The children who are born outside wedlock are most harmed by it. Do you really want to discuss the consequences of sex outside marriages or are the teen pregnancy, STDs, the rise of illegitimate kids, the seperation of kids from their biological parents through means such as adoption and voluantry raising the kid by single parents resulting in pyschological problems are enough to say sex outside wedlock is not love, its a perfect definition of irresponsibility.

Which of these is not prevented by using a condom?

I have never gotten my girlfriend pregnant. I have no STDs. I have never had an illegitimate child. I have never been separated from my children (because I don't have any). What exactly is irresponsible about my actions?

And I am, frankly, offended by your baseless statement that adoption causes psychological problems, as I have a number of friends who were orphaned in India, Korea, and China, and were adopted in the US.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I have never gotten my girlfriend pregnant. I have no STDs. I have never had an illegitimate child. I have never been separated from my children (because I don't have any). What exactly is irresponsible about my actions?

Ditto. Sex outside of marriage can be very responsible.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ditto. Sex outside of marriage can be very responsible.

Double ditto. I just got married last year, but I was with my wife for 12 years before that. No STD's, no pregnancies - no problem.

 

[Judgment]

Response: Those who commit the crime of adultery or fornication are the dangerous ones.

And... you believe they should be killed for their transgressions. You are much more dangerous than the one's you condemn.

This way of thinking must be removed from the human psyche - or mankind will never be able to move forward.

 

[England my lionheart]

Are you kidding? Comparing Communism to Islam? Islam is over 1400 years old and is still growing strong. Communism popularity did not last more than 30 years altogether!

That is your opinion, not a fact.

In your country many more are embracing Islam despite of experiencing the "freedom" of your culture and the Islamophobia created by your media..

That is the most ridiculous comment.

Islam will never change to accommodate the quote of the day. You need to absorb this and accept it as a fact. It did not change before and it will not change now or ever. Just because you think death penalty is barbaric does not mean it is, we think murdering someone is barbaric and therefore the death of the criminal is justifiable act. The point is, this whole movement of Master vs Slave scenario where the West must dictate to the rest of the world what to accept, eradicate, twist, keep, add, etc does not mean we have to kneel to this modern day colonialism.

The West contribution in technology, education, health, inventions, infrastructure of its societies and progression is very much appreciated and respected. In many ways they set a role model to follow. But at the same time sacred values have lost their meaning in the West. Family bond, morality, God-fearing principals and most importantly faith have faded away gradually. This totally "free" and spiritually empty society caused many problems to your people that no one can even deny.

Yes we do have our own problems as well that need to be exterminated. Many Muslims are genuinely seeking to reform society and update the interpretations of Islam. This will take time, there is and will be resistance to change. As a Muslim i do know the difference between the teachings of Islam and the traditions followed by the Muslims. Yes there isn't consensus among Muslims over everything but over the fundamentals yes there is. And Yes I can accept that non-Muslims cannot tell which is Islamic teaching and which is some man-made law/custom/tradition and therefor it is our duty to correct the image of Islam.

But

It is not your place as a non-Muslim to tell me what is Islamic and which is not, you might hear different answers to some of your questions. It is absolutely ridiculous to pick one that suits your agenda and insist on others to change Islam. Use your brain and ask yourself would Islam be this big today if it was horrible? You don't have to agree with its teachings. I don't agree with Christianity teachings but do i think it is a horrible religion? Of course not. It has brought the comfort to over 2 billion. The same can be said about other religions.

In my country we have rights of free speech which i am exercising,i can for example criticise the Pope for his stupid comments on Condoms or Gordon Brown for the useless Labour party,thats my right.
Would Islam "be as big" as you put it if it was horrible,well because somethings horrible it does'nt mean it cannot have a big following but i would refer you back to inherited religion and immigration.
I do not have a problem with peoples beliefs as long as it does'nt harm others and although many Muslims will tell me that stoning is a cultral practice and nothing to do with Islam,well i have some straight forward questions for you.
Did Muhammed have people stoned?
Are there references which can be seen in the Hadith where he has somebody stoned?
Do Muslims try to emulate Muhammed through the Sunna and Hadith?

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: The west's conspiracy to continue to make islam look bad.

I blame the Freemasons they are always in conspiracies,did you see the Xfiles , conspiracy LOL,at the moment Islam requires no help to make it look bad.

 

[Imagist]

Oh no but the claim that Aisha (RAA) was 9 is not a speculation?

No, it's directly quoted from primary sources.

No is not.

Sorry, but how is a forty-year-old sleeping with a twelve-year-old significantly better than sleeping with a nine-year-old? There's the possibility of her hitting puberty, but that doesn't mean she is emotionally or mentally mature enough to give consent.

What a childish comment? My statement was clear and stand firm. When Muslims still debate an event or law of their belief system, non-Muslims have no place dictating which one to believe or dismiss by getting themselves fixated on believing a version of the many historical versions. Just because you don't believe he was a Prophet, doesn't give you a right to dictate which story to believe and which to disbelieve.

I'm not dictating what to believe. I'm merely pointing out the obvious inconsistencies in your beliefs.

Well that what the Christians did in Jerusalem with their Crusade campaigns.

Please explain what this has to do with this discussion at all. I am not a Christian. I am not denying what the Christians did. I despise what the Christians did. And no matter how bad the Christians were, it doesn't excuse wrongdoing on the part of Muhammed.

If the Christians ate babies, would that make it okay for Muhammed to eat babies too?

No one said people have to emulate Muhammed (PBUH), we are saying Muslims have to emulate Muhammed (PBUH) and we have pride doing so.

Fine. I'll amend my statement:

I never said anything about what Muslims will or will not do. What I said was that Muslims don't have to emulate Muhammed. In fact, I think that Muslims should not emulate Muhammed.

Please provide examples of corrupted leaders who found a religion that continues to life after over thousand of years and their faith is still rapidly growing and attracting followers from all around the world.

Jesus.

So are mine, but i also take it from holy Qurán.

If this is the case, please quote the passage that contradicts my assertions.

Who called him perfect?

You asked me why he would do something that contradicted the teachings of the Quran. I said because he's not perfect.

Nope, go back and read what i have posted. I said i choose to believe the ancient texts that SUPPORTED the teachings of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) through holy Qurán and Hadiths.

And those that you choose to believe - they conveniently happen to only be the ones that say what you want them to say? Oh, and the "teachings of Prophet Muhammed" - which you pick and choose which ones of those to follow, too, don't you?

I think the problem lies within you. I have already explained that whatever contradicts Quránic teaching is false because Islam is founded by Muhammed (PBUH) and he wouldn't violate divine messages. On top of that, there are ancient texts that support this claim. What else should be presented to you as an evidence?

Well, it would help if you presented 1) evidence that Muhammed wouldn't violate divine messages, and 2) an ancient text that supported your claim.

I've already presented that 1) Muhammed WOULD violate divine messages (he's not perfect) and 2) that ancient texts support that claim (the Hadiths about him having sex with a nine-year-old girl and attacking Mecca).

You have presented neither.

I think you just admitted being biased and incapable of logical thinking when it comes to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). You have your own preconcieved ideas and just looking for any texts that supports these ideas.

Preconceived or not, I have texts that support my ideas. Unlike you.

Really?? So a man who you describe as a pedophile and a killer is like most people to you? Most of people that you know are pedophiles and killers? And on top of that, you find such a person not evil, but normal? You see you make no sense whatsoever. You want to appear as neutral when you clearly have issues with Islam and the Prophet. I dont mind that because i know many people are like you but just admit it. It is much better than giving absurd comments or illogical explanations.

I said that most people do both good and evil. I didn't say how extreme the good or evil. Obviously, Muhammed was a man of extremes (he did both extreme good and extreme evil). He is different from most people in the extremity of his good and evil, but he is the same as most people in that he did both good and evil.

And just to let you know, most people are not Prophets. True Prophets were humans and no human is perfect. But they also were chosen by God and they did not commit the mistakes of what we the normal humans do and did a lot for humanity.

You make a nice statement, but unfortunately, the evidence does not back it up.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Response: The west's conspiracy to continue to make islam look bad.

That's got to be one of the easiest jobs around. Pretty much does itself!

 

[Imagist]

Communism popularity did not last more than 30 years altogether!

Quoted for pure comedy.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: On the contrary, the muslims no what makes it, as you say, "unpopular". The simpe answer, jealousy and envy. It has been the non-muslim tactic since day one to purposely make islam look back in order to hide their own atrocities. The islamic way of life has always been the most dominant and the most preferred but the non-muslim media does not want to display that because it makes themselves look bad.

When I go to the masjid, the love and respect being received between muslims supercedes the kind being received between non-muslims. But does your british media show that? Of course not. But the second something blows up or a murder is done by a muslim, the british media is all over it. So it's not the fact that muslims don't know what's going on. We do know and many non-muslims see the conspiracy too which is why they embrace islam as well.

I am so jealous of you,the next time the Postman winks at my Wife i will give her one hundred lashes just to be like you.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Response: Those who commit the crime of adultery or fornication are the dangerous ones.

To us in the west this comment seems full of danger. We do not want the state or any religious leaders telling us how we must live in our private lives. We believe that this can only lead to totalitarianism.

Some muslims see our open society as sexually irresponsible. All you have to do is look at the abortion rates and the sexualizing of our culture. To see that this view contains much truth.

I will take the irresponsibility of the minority over the rule of the tyrants any day of the week.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

That's got to be one of the easiest jobs around. Pretty much does itself!

I agree

I think we should all discern between groups like the sufi's and Islamic fundamentalists. I believe most people just want food, shelter, and there kids to have a good life.

It's unfortunate that violent groups have always found that power grabs are very rewarding.

 

[Fatihah]

I blame the Freemasons they are always in conspiracies,did you see the Xfiles , conspiracy LOL,at the moment Islam requires no help to make it look bad.

Response: Islam requires no help at all. It will spread with you or without you.