Muslim and Baha'i View about Islam

[Monotheist 101]

Well, ofcourse if go to Anti-Baha'i Sites, what else can you expect?
It is like if someone wants to learn about Islam and Muhammad, and goes to Anti-Islamic Sites. That way they just mislead themselves, don't you think so?

You can bring material from anti-Islam websites..I am certain I will be able to defend my beloved prophet and his religion..regardless of the accusations..

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You dodged the question...how come this new cycle was not mentioned at all by any of the preceding prophets? Seems to me Muhammad would atleast have hinted towards this..or atleast an "unauthentic" hadith would have hinted at this... I seem to find none of this "new" ideology represented anywhere..most significantly the Quran..the concept of the Manifestation..goes against the teachings of the Quran..the most important of which..there is no God but He..thus logically removing the possibility of a manifestation..and if Bahai faith is actually just a continuation of Islam..why does it conflict the Quranic view of Jesus not being divine...

You have asked me that how come, these concepts about "Manifestation of God", and "New Cycle" was not described in Previous Revelations?
My reply:

On the contrary, they were both Mentioned, but were misunderstood, and misinterpreted.

For example:

"on the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth ....."Quran, Ibrahim 14:48

It was prophecised that the earth will be changed to another earth.
Now look, consider the time before the 19th century and after 19th century. The earth is changed, because a New Era has come as was prophecised.
The way of Life is changed, buildings are changed, we have cars instead of donkey, even the cloths is changed. Even the languages are changed. We have Modern english, Modern Arabic,...etc. So, as it was prophecised a New Era was to come.

Likewise the Bible has similar Prophecies:

"...Behold, I make all things new." Rev. 21:5

If others understood these verses which in Baha'i view are about coming of a New Cycle of human civization, that is just related to how it was interpreted, but not that it was not said by the Prophets.

Likewise as to your question about Manifestation of God, Both Islam, Chrsitianity as well as others have this in their Scriptures as well as Traditions:

Jesus refered to as "Image of God" in Bible. In Quran refered to as "Spirit of God"
In Quran, on the Day of Resurrection "the Lord" appeares. all of these are about Manifestation of God.
Likewise in Islamic Traditions:

Muhammad said:

"I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He"
Sahl al-Tustari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whether you choose to accept these Hadithes, or Bible is upto you, but such views exist in Previous Revelations.

 

[Monotheist 101]

The way of Life is changed, buildings are changed, we have cars instead of donkey, even the cloths is changed. Even the languages are changed. We have Modern english, Modern Arabic,...etc. So, as it was prophecised a New Era was to come

.

Change is inevitable...do you reckon any of these "new" buildings can compare to the Pyramids of Egypt? or the Madina til Saleh..the dwellings of the Thamud people..

before cars we had another change..instead of "riding" donkey we were riding chariots with wheels...the chariot and the car are not so different if you think about it...one uses a natural engine while the other uses a mechanical one..the foundations are the same...the wheel..nothing new about that...or era changing..

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why did the Bab appoint Mirza Yahya as his succesor then?

EDIT: Nevermind..you have already hinted that this is off topic... Would was your intention in creating the thread? I mean what views about Islam do you honeslty think a Muslim will discuss? Islam IMO is based on the Oneness of God and his uniqueness from his creation...If all the previous religions were right...what is the need for new ones? What I find interesting is that most of these off shoot religions/sects that claim the arrival of the Mahdi stem from Shia origins..what do you think the reason behind this might be?

It is fine if you ask these questions. But if you just place Text from Anti-Baha'i Website, it would take me alot of time to correct too many distortions and false info.

As to your question, is a very good question.

The reason was, at that time, the government had the mission to kill All the Babis.
So, Baha'u'llah was one of the Followers of the Babi Faith, and indeed the actual Leader. So, His Life was in danger if at that time He would be known as a Main Leader. Therefore the Bab, made "Yahya" famous, as if he is the actual leader in the eyes of others, so, Baha'u'llah would be safe, and not be considered an important leader or a main leader:

"By the assistance and instruction of Bahá’u’lláh, therefore, they made him (Mirza Yahya) notorious and famous on the tongues of friends and foes, and wrote letters, ostensibly at his dictation, to the Báb. And since secret correspondences were in process the Báb highly approved of this scheme. So Mírzá Ya[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]yá was concealed and hidden while mention of him was on the tongues and in the mouths of men. And this mighty plan was of wondrous efficacy, for Bahá’u’lláh, though He was known and seen, remained safe and secure, and this veil was the cause that no one outside [the sect] fathomed the matter or fell into the idea of molestation, until Bahá’u’lláh quitted [FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]Ṭ[/FONT][/FONT]ihrán at the permission of the King and was permitted to withdraw to the Supreme Shrines. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - A Traveler’s Narrative, Pages 21-40


By the way the above Book is a good source for a good and quick History about the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You can bring material from anti-Islam websites....

No, Thanks. I am not interested in attacking Islam. I already believe in it and would defend it.
I am just saying to research and learn about a Faith, it is wrong to rely on Anti-Religion websites.

 

[Monotheist 101]

The reason was, at that time, the government had the mission to kill All the Babis.
So, Baha'u'llah was one of the Followers of the Babi Faith, and indeed the actual Leader. So, His Life was in danger if at that time He would be known as a Main Leader. Therefore the Bab, made "Yahya" famous, as if he is the actual leader in the eyes of others, so, Baha'u'llah would be safe, and not be considered an important leader or a main leader:

This little "decoy" led to many Babis being killed..and Mirza Yahya being persecuted by Bahaullah himself..IMO a person looking for power would do that..

"By the assistance and instruction of Bahá’u’lláh, therefore, they made him (Mirza Yahya) notorious and famous on the tongues of friends and foes, and wrote letters, ostensibly at his dictation, to the Báb. And since secret correspondences were in process the Báb highly approved of this scheme. So Mírzá Yaḥyá was concealed and hidden while mention of him was on the tongues and in the mouths of men. And this mighty plan was of wondrous efficacy, for Bahá’u’lláh, though He was known and seen, remained safe and secure, and this veil was the cause that no one outside [the sect] fathomed the matter or fell into the idea of molestation, until Bahá’u’lláh quitted Ṭihrán at the permission of the King and was permitted to withdraw to the Supreme Shrines. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - A Traveler’s Narrative, Pages 21-40

This comes across as what a person in his quest for power or influence would do.. We have different perceptions of the same words...I think it has alot to do with our pre-formed beliefs or opinions..

Do you mind me asking how long you have been a member of the Bahai Faith..did you convert..if so..what from..if not how long has your family been Bahai? I hope these arent too personal..I would like to understand the extent of your attachment to the Bahai Faith and how you came across it..I honestly have never met a Bahai in person...I came across this Faith on RF..was very intrigued and have spent the last two nights reading up about what anyone and everyone has to say..not just anti Bahais...at the end of it all..I have reached a personal conclusion that..Bahai faith is not building on Islam..rather shattering its foundations to the ground and turning a new leaf in which any and every ideology is acceptable..

According to Bahaullah there would be a space of 1000 years between the next manifestation..why was there only 15 in between Bab and Bahaullah.. Please dont say that the Bab was only the gate...at first he calimed he was Bab..than Mahdi..than Manifestation...the same as Bahaullah...Pardon my opinion but I find these to be defensive/cunning tactics to first introduce something that wont be opposed..than slowly building on it..and adding to it gradually depending on how much the people are willing to believe...

 

[Monotheist 101]

No, Thanks. I am not interested in attacking Islam. I already believe in it and would defend it.
I am just saying to research and learn about a Faith, it is wrong to rely on Anti-Religion websites.

Do you mean to say..you believe in every religion and would defend it? How can you be at peace with accepting different religions with contrasting views and basics? You said you would defend Islam..but it is the Bahai interpretation of Islam you would be defending not what the majority of Islam represents and holds dear..

I tried the approach of fusing or mixing and matching from different faiths what made sense to me (kind of like Bahaullah did)..but it left me more confused than ever...Islam(Muslim) and the Quran is the religion my heart has found peace with..to incorporate these interpretations and concepts into my understanding of Islam..would be like questioning the very reason I chose it...There is no purer Monotheistic religion than Islam as depicted in the Quran IMO..to question the mainstream Islamic(Muslim) view of God would be questioning the basis of rejecting christianity and other pantheistic/panenthiest religions..If I was to question Islamic view of God..and opt for another religion..why choose Bahai when I can go back to christianity..which is also right(according to Bahai faith)..or Buddhism..I want to be good at one thing..not a jack of all trades and a master of none...

 

[Monotheist 101]

You have asked me that how come, these concepts about "Manifestation of God", and "New Cycle" was not described in Previous Revelations?
My reply:

On the contrary, they were both Mentioned, but were misunderstood, and misinterpreted.

These interpretation in your opinion had been misrepresented since the time of Muhammad? How come no one in the Muslim world was able to interpret it with even the slightest similarities to how the Bab interpreted it..Not one person out of the millions of Muslims that had passed before him..hinted towards these concepts..I think you have misunderstood Islam when you try to incorporate Manifestations of God into the simple religion. No wonder you guys have a seperate religion and not a sect..this isnt Islam that you represent..but I do admire your respect towards the scriptures..I cannot say the same applies to me..I respect every revelation before the Quran..the Final testament..after that it might aswell be the pen of a poet/scribe indulged in divine fantasies..God bless you brother..May Allah guide us all

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Quote:
The Bahais reportedly massacred the adherents of Yahya (Bahaullahs half brother), they used foul tactics to trap their opponents..
(Ref: Ishraq Khavari, Abd-al-Hamid, Tarikh-e-Amr. page 245).

Please quote the exact Text from this book. I believe there is no such a thing in this Book the way you are describing.

Ishraq Khavari is a renowned Bahai historian and compiler of the scriptures, in Persian and Arabic. I haven't checked the history referred to, but it must be referring to a very shameful incident, which Shoghi Effendi describes :

Though He Himself had stringently forbidden His followers, on several occasions, both verbally and in writing, any retaliatory acts against their tormentors, and had even sent back to Beirut an irresponsible Arab convert, who had meditated avenging the wrongs suffered by his beloved Leader, seven of the companions [that is, the Bahais] clandestinely sought out and slew three of their persecutors, among whom were Siyyid Muhammad and Aqa Jan.

The consternation that seized an already oppressed community was indescribable. Bahá'u'lláh's indignation knew no bounds. ... "My captivity," He wrote on another occasion, "cannot harm Me. That which can harm Me is the conduct of those who love Me, ... and yet perpetrate what causeth My heart and My pen to groan." And again: .... That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One."
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 189)

The only up side on this is that when Bahais do do something wrong, it's not kept secret. You can read about it in the Bahai histories, which are in libraries and on line for everyone to read. There was also no cover-up at the time. The Bahais who were involved served prison terms in Akka.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

('Bayan' Wahid 6, chapter 11) "We have made the semen clean so that 'He whom Allah Shall Manifest' is not born out of impure semen"

Bahaullah was born 2 years before the Bab..thus invalidating his claim as the Manifestation..due to uncleanliness of semen.

The verse does not mean that the Promised one was not born yet.

There is this belief among Muslim scholars that Semen is Unclean. There is no basis for this in Quran. And Scientifically there is no reason to say it is Unclean. The verse is correcting this Misconception.

"We have made the semen clean", does not mean it was unclean before , but now is clean so Baha'u'llah will be born clean. "We have made the semen clean" means, from begining We have made the semen clean.

In fact The Bab alluded in His verses that the Promised One would Proclaim in the Year 19 in the Babi Calander (19 years after Proclamation of Bayan):

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee." The Bab

'Bayan' Wahid 5 "The new Manifestation would come only after all have been educated with the Bayan."

How can people be educated by the Bayan..when it was never completed?

This is what the verse says:

"The object is that when He whom God shall manifest shall appear, all shall have been educated in the Bayán, that none of the believers in the Bayán may remain outside belief in Him; should one do so, the Command concerning him is as the Command concerning him who believeth not in God. I swear by God that in the Manifestation of Him whom God shall manifest all shall unite in helping [the propagation of the Faith], not one will remain on the earth who shall not enter into Paradise."
(The Persian Bayán, Vahid V, Chapter 4, Momen, p. 364)

Here the statement can be addressing His own Followers. "All" who are His Present. This part of the verse make it clear "that none of the believers in the Bayán "
Moreover, He is not prophecising this will happen, but He is encouraging them that this should be their goal.

There was a space of 600 years between Jesus (p.b.u.h) and Hazrat Mohammed (p.b.u.h) and over 1,200 years between Hazrat Mohammed (p.b.u.h) and the Bab. The gap between The Bab and Bahaullah was just 15 years. What changed in those 15 years that required a new Manifestation and a change in religion? Why was a new Manifestation needed so soon?

Again based on Islamic Prophecies, first Mahdi comes, then Christ. The Mission of the Bab was to prepare the way for comming of Baha'u'llah, because the Persia was an Islamic Country and not accepting a New Revealtion after Islam. So, the Bab sacrificed His life, to correct this view, make them ready to accept a new Revelation, to create enough potency and momentum, so when Baha'u'llah comes the way is ready.

This has happend before too. Like the John Baptist who was a Prophet and, Jesus came right after Him.

But essencially the Bab and Baha'u'llah had the same mission. They are considered part of the same Revelation.

A dispute is reported between to early Bahai Missionaries who argued wheter Bahaullah was a Manifestation of God or God himself..they approached Bahaullah with their queries..
Bahaullah on hearing them smiled and said, "I am both as well as neither. It does not matter. Just deceive the masses with this.""-Bab-o-Baha ra Beshanaseed" page 152

"Bab-o-Baha ra Beshanaseed" must be a Book written by Anti-Baha'is. It is not a trusted Source.
It is clear such a thing could not have happend. for if Baha'u'llah has said "Just deceive the masses with this", how could even His own followers believe Him? How could His followers accepted to be killed for their belief?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.

Change is inevitable...do you reckon any of these "new" buildings can compare to the Pyramids of Egypt? or the Madina til Saleh..the dwellings of the Thamud people..

before cars we had another change..instead of "riding" donkey we were riding chariots with wheels...the chariot and the car are not so different if you think about it...one uses a natural engine while the other uses a mechanical one..the foundations are the same...the wheel..nothing new about that...or era changing..

Yes, the change has always existed. But I mean "the rate of change", and rapidity in change and progress, to the point that completely a New Human Civilization has appeared.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Yes, the change has always existed. But I mean "the rate of change", and rapidity in change and progress, to the point that completely a New Human Civilization has appeared.

According to you this rate of change has never been reached in previous civilizations? Maybe not on a Global scale but the change in civilization between Muhammad and Bahaullah is not comparable to the change between the time of Moses and Muhammad let alone Adam..why do you fool yourself and others with nonsensical theories/ideologies...oh well to each his own..I have learnt enough about you guys to know that I want non of it..thanks and best of luck..thanks for clearing up misconceptions and discussing your beliefs..

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This little "decoy" led to many Babis being killed..and Mirza Yahya being persecuted by Bahaullah himself..IMO a person looking for power would do that..

That is a misconception. Baha'u'llah did not persecute anyone. Baha'u'llah was in prison and Exile all the time, how can He prosecute anyone?

This comes across as what a person in his quest for power or influence would do.. We have different perceptions of the same words...I think it has alot to do with our pre-formed beliefs or opinions..

The Study of Baha'i Scriptures, and its History is something that would take probabaly a life-time. Even by then you won't be able to finish.
Baha'u'llah alone revealed 17000 works. Then there are Works of the Bab, which are several volumes of the Quran and the Bible. Then the Scriptures from Abdulbaha. then the History of Baha'i Faith which it would be several hundered pages.
I am saying this is not something that anyone can claim knows, specially if they just started last week or so.

According to Bahaullah there would be a space of 1000 years between the next manifestation..why was there only 15 in between Bab and Bahaullah..

It's not 15. It is 19 years between Bab and Baha'u'llah's decrlerations.
Not all Prophets would appear every 1000 years. John and Jesus appeared close to each other.
However, the Religion of God is renewed every about 1000 years. The Baha'i Faith Renewed Religion, but it had Two Prophets.
So, why do you think Mahdi should come first then Christ returns? What is the benefit of that from an Islamic view?

 

[Monotheist 101]

However, the Religion of God is renewed every about 1000 years. The Baha'i Faith Renewed Religion, but it had Two Prophets.
So, why do you think Mahdi should come first then Christ returns? What is the benefit of that from an Islamic view?

What I can understand from your views is..that God must be imperfect..because his religion needs to be renewed every thousand years..regardless of whether it still holds up or not..there is no need for these revelations..even if Bahaullah had written 1.7 million books..his claims would not make sense to a seeker of truth..there is no reason to join the Bahai Faith IMO..if everything is right and from God according to you..I should stick to Islam ..and its clear understanding of God and his attributes..

What I find confusing is that..according to the Bab anyone who claims divine revelation is a truthful manifestation..and should be accepted.

There is no point in discussing further..Im glad you have your "own" faith and cant poison Islam from the inside anymore..you are trying to misrepresent it..personally I have no problem as long as you claim to be Bahai and not Muslim..you can do whatever you want and attribute whatever lies to God that please you..

May Allah Guide us All
Peace

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What I can understand from your views is..that God must be imperfect..because his religion needs to be renewed every thousand years..regardless of whether it still holds up or not..there is no need for these revelations..

No, I don't think you understood what I said.
Let me ask you this:

Did Allah ordain Sabbath Law or not through the revelation of Moses, from an Islamic point of view?
Did not Allah turn them to Apes, just because they did not obey the Sabbath Law? Then How come Muslims don't follow Sabath anymore?

even if Bahaullah had written 1.7 million books..his claims would not make sense to a seeker of truth..there is no reason to join the Bahai Faith IMO..if everything is right and from God according to you..I should stick to Islam ..and its clear understanding of God and his attributes..

It is unfortunate that you felt I opend this thread so to ask you join the Baha'i Faith. Have you read the OP? I have said this thread is to share our different view, but not to say who is right or wrong. Did you notice that?

What I find confusing is that..according to the Bab anyone who claims divine revelation is a truthful manifestation..and should be accepted.

That tells me you didn't understand. The Bab revealed a Book like Quran. He made prophecies about future that was fulfilled. He mathces the exact year that was prophecised according to Hadithes and Quran. He accepted Marthyrdom.
Now you are saying anyone who claims is a Prophet, and you tell me you understood everything?

There is no point in discussing further..Im glad you have your "own" faith and cant poison Islam from the inside anymore..you are trying to misrepresent it..personally I have no problem as long as you claim to be Bahai and not Muslim..you can do whatever you want and attribute whatever lies to God that please you..

May Allah Guide us All
Peace

It is upto you to discuss or not. You came to this thread and you are welcome, and it is upto you to continue or not. But if you left questions, then I try to make a reply to all of them as my time allows... This is not because, I am debating personally with you. But I have made this thread so, different views can expressed.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

According to you this rate of change has never been reached in previous civilizations? Maybe not on a Global scale but the change in civilization between Muhammad and Bahaullah is not comparable to the change between the time of Moses and Muhammad let alone Adam..why do you fool yourself and others with nonsensical theories/ideologies...oh well to each his own..I have learnt enough about you guys to know that I want non of it..thanks and best of luck..thanks for clearing up misconceptions and discussing your beliefs..

Yes, it is a good observation, that at the time of every Revelation, there was a change in human civilization. That is precisely I am talking about. So, everytime a New Revelation came, that was a new creation of human civilization. But the change in this Time of Revelation has been by far the greatest as you also seem to understood.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

...How come no one in the Muslim world was able to interpret it with even the slightest similarities to how the Bab interpreted it

It is the opposite. Have you read Rumi? If you had read you would know He also had done simillar interpretations.

But as to your question, why the Majority of Muslims do not have this interpretation?
Have you not read the Quran, where it said "No one knows its interpretation except for God"? and "On the Day Its interpretation shall come they will know"?

 

[Monotheist 101]

It is the opposite. Have you read Rumi? If you had read you would know He also had done simillar interpretations.

But as to your question, why the Majority of Muslims do not have this interpretation?
Have you not read the Quran, where it said "No one knows its interpretation except for God"? and "On the Day Its interpretation shall come they will know"?

I apologize for making this thread one about Bahai history and beliefs..but to discuss views of Islam, I had to first establish..how much weight your view holds..on doing research on the Bahai Faith..I have concluded that you guys are not a sect but rather a faith by itself because you are not Muslim by definition..I believe Islamic views should be discussed by Muslims only..A Bahai discussing Islam is no different than a hindu or an atheist discussing Islam..based on their personal perception and not the truthful reality..

I am sorry to say..not one Muslim would pay attention or care about the Bahai view of Islam, once they understand your core beliefs..

I had to establish what these were and honestly I too cannot see what weight your views of Islam would hold..IMO once you incorporate a manifestation into Islam..you are not longer discussing Islam..rather Bahai Faith..a better topic for the thread would have been..Bahai view of Bahai intepretation of Islam and Majority Muslim view. How can what you say be taken seriously by a muslim when you dispute the basis the religion is founded on..There is no God but He..by creating manifestations, Baha'ullah validated pre-Islamic concepts of Jesus as manifestation thus invalidating Muhammad..how is that building upon anything...all these spiritual interpretations are fantasy IMO.

anyways thanks alot for replying..
I will not be posting on here anymore..IMO it does not matter what a Bahai has to say about Islam..it is not Islam that they talk about..look at the brightside of my replies atleast this thread isn't completley dead ...not one muslim took you seriously and replied to this thread..

BTW do you mind contributing to the Ahmadi vs Bahai thread..I would like to see which one of you is more truthful than the others..

Cheers

 

[InvestigateTruth]

...I have concluded that you guys are not a sect but rather a faith by itself ...

Good conclusion! at least you learned something.
Relation between Baha'i Faith and Islam, is very similar to Relation between CHristianity and Jew.

The Jews expect a Messiah that would not reveal a new Book, but only reform Jewish Faith. However Jesus brought a New Revelation, and abrogated some of the Jewish Law.
Samething holds for Baha'u'llah about the Islamic Law. He abrogated Islamic Law, while confirming it to be a relgion that was meant for previous Age.
Jesus likewise confirmed Moses, but He declaired it is old religion, and He calimed He has a New Revelation.

So, the similarity is that the Jewish Faith Has a Messiah, and they are expecting he will come in the future and only reform Jewish Faith. I understand the Muslims have simillar expectations from Mahdi.
The Jews reject Jesus on similar basis that Muslims rejected Baha'u'llah.

So, Jesus was born in a Jewish Family, and Baha'u'llah was born in Muslim family. But both broke from their Traditional Religion, and claimed a new Revelation.

 

[Monotheist 101]

You are mistaken..Jesus did not make claims of divinity..never did he clearly call himself a manifestation of God like Bahaullah..He also did not present absurd theories about the day of judgment..or say that it had already passed..neither did he say that the change in era required a new revelation..rather the conduct of the people..straying away from the teachings of the Torah and adding to it was the reason of his revelation..whatever happened to the greatest reward that the Quran mentions..I mean do you honestly believe this is the great reward promised by the Quran? or Maybe I must be in Hell according to Bahai faith..