Muslim and Baha'i View about Islam

[InvestigateTruth]

..Jesus did not make claims of divinity..

He did not claim to be God. Neither did Baha'u'llah or the Bab.
Do you know what Manifestation of God means?

never did he clearly call himself a manifestation of God like Bahaullah..

It is in the Bible.
And I have already posted a Hadith from Muhammad. Did you miss that?
Have you not read Quran where it says "o Muhammad those who obey you, indeed obey God". "those who plead fealthy to you O Muhammad, they plead fealthy to God"

He also did not present absurd theories about the day of judgment..or say that it had already passed..

He said, He was the Resurrestion. Have you read the Bible?

Have you read the Quran where it says the Trumpet was Blown at the time of Muhammad? Have you read where Quran said, by revelation of Muhammad the Dead became Alive?

"Every Prophet that God sent, He judged Mankind" Have you read these?

neither did he say that the change in era required a new revelation..

Then why Jesus brought the Gosples? Why He broke Sabbath? You didn't answer my question. Why Muslims do not follow Sabbath?

rather the conduct of the people..straying away from the teachings of the Torah and adding to it was the reason of his revelation..whatever happened to the greatest reward that the Quran mentions..I mean do you honestly believe this is the great reward promised by the Quran? or Maybe I must be in Hell according to Bahai faith..

I have already said, Hell in Baha'i view is being Far from God. It is not a physical place. When Jesus was on earth He said "I am in heaven"

See, there is alot of things that I have to clear. But I had asked you a few questions. You ignored my questions. Why don't you do some research about my questions, because I believe once you find the answers to those questions, then that helps you understand the Baha'i view (if you like)

 

[Monotheist 101]

Have you read the Bible?

Have you read the Quran

Have YOU not read the Quran

Quran 5:3
Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah , and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.(emphasis bold)

Have you not read a dictionary?

perfect

  Use Perfect in a sentence
per·fect

[adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] Show IPA
adjective 1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.

2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.

3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.

4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.

5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.

Perfect | Define Perfect at Dictionary.com

Something perfect will never stop being perfect and it cannot be made better.

Do you know what Manifestation of God means?

Manifestation: the materialization of a disembodied spirit. (your command of the english language does not seem upto scratch)

Then why Jesus brought the Gosples? Why He broke Sabbath? You didn't answer my question. Why Muslims do not follow Sabbath?

Jesus did not bring the Gospels, they were compiled by his disciples after he died..The Injeel mentioned in the Quran is not the Gospels of the disciples..and you asking me if I read the Bible?

Narrated Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "We are the last (to come) but we will be the foremost on the Day of Resurrection, nations were given the Book (i.e.Scripture) before us, and we were given the Holy Book after them. This(i.e. Friday) is the day about which they differed. So the next day (i.e. Saturday) was prescribed for the Jews and the day after it (i.e.Sunday) for the Christians. It is incumbent on every Muslim to wash his head and body on a Day (i.e. Friday) (at least) in every seven days."

It is the opposite. Have you read Rumi? If you had read you would know He also had done simillar interpretations.

People might have done interpretations but they didnt interpret it and pass the interpretation as revelation or the word of God..do you see the difference?

The Jews reject Jesus on similar basis that Muslims rejected Baha'u'llah.

I think todays Jews reject Jesus due to the corrupt version of monotheism that the church preaches..that is the same reason actually why I am rejecting Bahaullah..corruption of faith..seems to me that you guys just mix and match whatever tickles your fancy..a bit from here a bit from there...The core belief of Bahai IMO is not a montheistic one, rather panenthiestic with deeply rooted gnostic and sufi influence, IMO they accept/incorporate a few things from every faith..just so those faiths will sympathize with them. A smart tactic..but too obvious.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Mirza Yahya being persecuted by Bahaullah himself...

Yet another gross lie from some anti-Baha'i source or other! :-( :-(

In fact, Yahha poisoned Baha'u'llah.

(Of course, for such sources, reversing the truth is considered quite acceptable. . . .)

Bruce

 

[muziko]

Please be more respectful to your fellow posters.

Have YOU not read the Quran

Quran 5:3
....This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.(emphasis bold)

Have you not read a dictionary?
3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose:

I narrowed it down for you (not only to answer what I think is a question, but also because I don't have enough posts to have URLS in my posts). It was perfect for the time. Other posters here will probably go into more detail if you want, but I most likely will not respond after this post.

I think todays Jews reject Jesus due to the corrupt version of monotheism that the church preaches..

You might want to go to their DIR and ask if that was the only reason.

IMO they accept/incorporate a few things from every faith..just so those faiths will sympathize with them. A smart tactic..but too obvious.

:no:

 

[Monotheist 101]

"The Surah of the Companions contains some striking images and metaphors, and an explicit declaration of Baha'u'llah's mission. It is not, however, a doctrinal statement. Rather, it is an intensely personal, pastoral letter intended to cultivate personal ties of loyalty. So that the nature of the document can be appreciated, I offer a provisional translation of the Surah of the Companions below. The text is that published in Volume 4 of Athar-i qalam-i a`la (pp. 205-239). I compared this text to an MS in the hand of Zaynu'l-Muqarrabin kindly provided by the Baha'i World Center, and found no variant readings."
Baha'u'llah's Surah of the Companions - Introduction

Was it for any living thing to ask `Wherefore?' or `Whereby?' or to speak forth in our Presence? Nay, by my Self, the Mighty, the Knowing! All heads have bowed before my glorious and beautiful countenance, and all have humbly submitted to my powerful and invincible dominion.[1] Within the throat of this youth lie imprisoned words that, if revealed to mankind to an extent smaller than a needle's eye, would be sufficient to cause every mountain to crumble, the leaves of the trees to be discolored and their fruits to fall; would compel every head to bow down in worship and every face to turn in adoration towards this omnipotent ruler who, at various times and in diverse manners, appears as a devouring flame, as a billowing ocean, as a radiant light, as the tree which, rooted in the soil of holiness, lifts its branches and spreads out its limbs as far as and beyond the throne of deathless glory.[2] At yet other times, you will find him in the form of the beloved, in this cloak that none in all the creation can recognize. Should any of them desire to recognize him, they would swoon within their own spirits, all save those who approach their Lord with a sincere heart.
Baha'u'llah's Surah of the Companions - Translation

I will give him credit for being a good poet..but the content of the poetry makes me question why I even bothered reading it..he makes alot of lofty claims..a human beings intentions are easy to read..You guys said Bahaullah didnt persecute Babis? He certainly revealed verses which shed an unfavourable light..comparing them to the Muslims (who executed the Bab) who hang on to the Quran..He also considers them to be opponents..not brothers in the same cause..as I would imagine..

My beloved friend! You shall find that our opponents have clung to the same arguments as did the people of the Qur'an in the past, nay have stooped even lower. God is sufficient to me in this regard as a witness. Indeed, you shall hear from them what never was heard from any of the learned among the Muslims, nor from their ignorant ones, nor even from their street-sweepers in the markets. By God, this is a great iniquity!
Baha'u'llah's Surah of the Companions - Translation

Please can you check my source and let me know if it comes across as anti Bahai or biased..

 

[Monotheist 101]

Please be more respectful to your fellow posters.
I narrowed it down for you (not only to answer what I think is a question, but also because I don't have enough posts to have URLS in my posts). It was perfect for the time. Other posters here will probably go into more detail if you want, but I most likely will not respond after this post.
:no:

I apologize for coming across as disrespectful..the Investigative Truth character started asking if I had read this or read that...so I asked him the same..how is one disrespectful and not the other? Double standards in the Bahai Faith are there?

Also about your concise but fallable reply to the post about it being perfect for his time..According to you God is not perfect..because if he was to claim something to be perfect(his religion, there is only one) and then a thousand years later override the very basics of what he considered perfect..than he is not really the All Powerful, All Knowing God that we have agreed to believe in.

Another question that has me baffled is..you guys believe in a spiritual resurection and judgement and that the day has passed... yet also claiming that God send messengers every 1000 years so exactly when did it pass? Between the time of Muhammad and the Bab..or everyone goes through an individual process of resurection/reincarnation...kind of like the hindus with a persian flavoring?

 

[Monotheist 101]

God does not force our belief -- so why would the Qaim or Mahdi become rulers of the earth

Not rulers of the earth..rulers of their nation..all of it..not just a handful of Babis..I think the fact that all of the Mahdi claimants have not been universally accepted gives evidence to the fact that they are false in their claims.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not rulers of the earth..rulers of their nation..all of it..not just a handful of Babis..I think the fact that all of the Mahdi claimants have not been universally accepted gives evidence to the fact that they are false in their claims.

Can you bring a Hadith that Mahdi will Rule in His Life, His Nation?
The point is that, every Prophet that ever came, people had certain expectations based on their own imaginations. But When the Prophet came, He did not fulfill the expectation of People, thus got rejected. Refer to the well-known stories of Prophets in other Scriptures. Specially refer to the Surah of Hud.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"
Please can you check my source and let me know if it comes across as anti Bahai or biased..

What you quoted is not from an official Baha'i Website.
The Translation might be ok, but for example you quoted:

"The Surah of the Companions contains some striking images and metaphors, and an explicit declaration of Baha'u'llah's mission. ..."

Note that these statements are merely how that person understood Baha'u'llah or His Writings. This is not necessarily a Baha'i View.

Monotheist 101, you are quite new in terms becoming familiar with Baha'i Scriptures and History, but seem to be very eager to learn and understand.
But please note that, to understand Baha'i Faith it requires a lot of background.

Specially for those who come from a Muslim background, an initial correct background is required. For me, as someone who comes from a family with Muslim Background, in the beginning was also very challenging to understand Baha'u'llah's mission, and Writings, and still even after at least 10 years of research, I am still learning.

But let me tell you something. For those who are new to know about Baha'i Faith, if their intention is to reject, then they can easily find problems in Baha'i Faith in their own mind. But the more experienced Baha'is can easily reply and reject the misconceptions, though this would be a time consuming task.
But since you seem to be sincere, and did not come here to just argue, I will try to gradually give you some background that I believe is necessary to understand the Baha'i Scriptures.
And thanks for taking time to reply to my questions, I will get back to you sometime this week.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I will give him credit for being a good poet..but the content of the poetry makes me question why I even bothered reading it..he makes alot of lofty claims..a human beings intentions are easy to read..You guys said Bahaullah didnt persecute Babis? He certainly revealed verses which shed an unfavourable light..comparing them to the Muslims (who executed the Bab) who hang on to the Quran..He also considers them to be opponents..not brothers in the same cause..as I would imagine..
..

Well, you know, the same things can be said about Prophets of the Past. The people of the past also said that for example Prophet Muhammad is a Crazy Poet, and He is claiming falsely to be a Prophet, and indeed He is doing this for the sake of Power. They still say that....

 

[Monotheist 101]

The people of the past also said that for example Prophet Muhammad is a Crazy Poet

That is the sole reason the Quran relates the story of the ancients..so we can learn a lesson or two...times will always change..men are capable of performing incredible feats..but a lack of faith and understanding of the Monotheist creator will lead to their demise..I think my understanding of Monothesim based on Quran conflicts the foundations of Bahaullahs lofty claims..they contaminate my perception of the Oneness of Allah and I will never choose to accept it...I dont think I need to read 17000 books to reach that decision..just a few conflicting lines are enough for me to write him off as another claimant who we were warned about..

Tawhid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid

 

[Monotheist 101]

Can you bring a Hadith that Mahdi will Rule in His Life, His Nation?

Hadhrat Abdullah bin Mas'ood(RA) reports from the Prophet(SAW), who said:

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.
(Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa'id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

The hadith clearly states "rule over the Arabs"..Bahaullah didnt rule over any arabs, only a handful of persians.​

​

Abu Sa'id al-Khudari(RA) narrated that the Prophet(SAW) said:

Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)

Again the specific word rule is used..and if you guys justify Bahullahs rule being a spiritual one..then again it is proven false due to the fact that the spiritual rule you talk about has surpased a couple hundred more years than the seven as evidenced by the chain of narration.



​

​

Hadhrat Umme Salmah(RA) narrates that Rasulullah(SAW) said:

After the death of a Ruler there will be some dispute between the people. At that time a citizen of Madina will flee (from Madina) and go to Makkah. While in Makkah, certain people will approach him between Hajrul Aswad and Maqaame Ibraheem, and forcefully pledge their allegiance to him.
Thereafter a huge army will proceed from Syria to attack him but when they will be at Baida, which is between Makkah and Madina, they will be swallowed into the ground.
On seeing this, the Abdaals of Shaam as well as large numbers of people from Iraq will come to him and pledge their allegiance to him. Then a person from the Quraish, whose uncle will be from the Bani Kalb tribe will send an army to attack him, only to be overpowered, by the will of Allah. This (defeated) army will be that of the Bani Kalb. Unfortunate indeed is he who does not receive a share from the booty of the Kalb. This person (Imam Mahdi) will distribute the spoils of war after the battle. He will lead the people according to the Sunnat and during his reign Islam will spread throughout the world. He will remain till seven years (since his emergence). He will pass away and the Muslims will perform his Janazah salaat.
(Abu Dawood)

​

The holy Prophet(SAW) said:

A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them.
(Sahih Muslim)

A ruler is a natural leader..that people look to guidance for..you cannot have a true ruler without having him lead..

​

It is reported from Abu Hurayra(RA) that the Prophet(SAW) said:

What will be your reaction when the son of Mary (Jesus) descends and your Imam is from among yourselves?
(Sahih Muslim, bab nuzul 'isa, Vol. 2; Sahih Bukhari, kitab bad' al-khalq wa nuzul 'isa, Vol. 4)

Again Jesus's authenticity will be validated by his acceptance by the christians..Bahaullah falls short on this as well.



​

According to these reliable, authentic, and universally accepted narrations, Mahdi will:

1. Be from among the family of Prophet(SAW), among the descendants of Fatima(RA);
2. Have a broad forehead and pointed noise;
3. Appear in one night;
4. Appear just before the day of judgment;
5. Have same name as hazrat Muhammad(SAW);
6. Escape from Madina to Makkah where people will pledge allegiance to him;
7. Receive pledge and help of Iraqi people;
8. Fight in battles;
9. Rule over the Arabs for seven years according to Sunnah;
10. Spread justice and equity on earth;
11. Eradicate tyranny and oppression;
12. Lead a prayer in Mekkah which Jesus(pbuh) will follow in;
13. NOT be the same individual as the Promised Messiah (Jesus). Identification of the Prophesized Imam Mahdi

This is the generally accepted consensus amongst the majority of the Ummah..I believe our strength is in Unity which is fueled by our understanding of the oneness and unity of God.


All hadith have been qouted from following website
Identification of the Prophesized Imam Mahdi


I am not much of a follower of the hadith..but you asked to bring hadith..these are some of the most trustworthy chains of narration..

​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

..just a few conflicting lines are enough for me to write him off as another claimant who we were warned about..

And what you may not be aware is that there is no conflicting between religions.
The conflicting views is related to misinterpretations about Religions, not the religions itself.
Just think about Islam. There was Only one Islam in the Beginning, but how many sects and schools of thought are there now? Prophet Himself said 72 or 73. It is clear then if there is so much diverse and conflicting views in One Religion, it shouldn't be surprising to you, that the conflicting views between various Religions would also be inevitable.

And a great number of Baha'u'llah's Writings deals with clearing these conflicts. But off Course how would one even know, without reading and learning them?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And Regarding your Hadithes, the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfill all the Prophecies in every Authentic Hadith.

 

[Monotheist 101]

And Regarding your Hadithes, the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfill all the Prophecies in every Authentic Hadith.

Please donot merely state your beliefs, do you mind elaborating?

You still fail to answer the most important of questions..like acceptance by the christians, or universal acceptance by the Ummah..or rule over arabs? or a rule at all?
You vaguely divert and pass on every concept as spiritual..

Again I will state when Bahaullah starts incorporating Sufi thought and Panenthiestic concepts into Tawhid..than I have no choice but to reject whatever he claims to interpret from the Quran..if he cant understand the basic Oneness of lord..his seperation from creation..than I place no weight in his poetry..

Another difference I see between the Quran and Bahai texts is that..it never comes across for an instance when I read the Quran that Muhammad is actually the author behind the words...Bahaullah in contrast cannot stop praising the divine truth of his pen..a poet in need of an audience..who even goes far enough to claim that he and the truth are one..Muhammad is always depicted as a mortal human being, not one with God, who in turn is One with the world, and all religions are one..Doesnt cut it for me..feel free to believe whatever tho..but please dont try to pass it off or compare it to Islamic Monotheism..and its interpretation of the Quran..

I mean no disrespect..but I am a believer that we should cut to the chase and be honest about our views..

Salam

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You vaguely divert and pass on every concept as spiritual..

Hi Monotheist 101:

The Prophet had Prophecised that there would come a time, the "Spiritual" meaning of Quran will be totally lost among Muslims:

"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766

So, what essencially the mainstream Muslims today see in Quran is Mostly "Outward" meaning of Quran as opposed to its inner meaning which is related to spiritual realities. I believe this is the reason, that for most of Muslims, emphasising on spiritual meanings and interpretations sound "fake" and "new". This is because the time has passed, and the time that Prophet Muhammad had declaired for His people passed Already,

The Prophet said, the Period for my people is an Age of one Day. A Day in Islamic Prophcies is 1000 years as Per Quran. I had alread posted a Hadith regarding this in my previous post, which you may have ignored.

Likewise the Prophet said, at the End of My People, Mahdi comes.

Then It is obvious that, Mahdi would explain Quran different than What Majority of Muslims understand. The Mission of Mahdi, according to Hadithes, is to come and Establish True Religion again. If the Muslims really know and follow Quran, why should they be divided into 72 0r 73 sects? Why WOuld the Prophet say, the 72 sects go to Hell Fire? Afterall, if the Muslims followed True Islam, and the Original Islam remained propperly, why should be even a Mahdi and a Christ Return?

What the mind of Muslims imagined that the Mahdi would Rule in a Political Sense. He would have a Swrod. He would Kill the unbelievers and make every one submitte. This has never been the way of any previous Prophets.

While the Sword of Mahdi, in our view is His Wisdom and Word, by which Falsehood is Seperated from Truth.


The Messenger of God said: "At the end of the time of my ummah, the Mahdi will appear. God will grant him rain, the earth will bring forth its fruits, he will give a lot of money, cattle will increase and the ummah will become great. He will rule for seven or eight years.[13]

"To every [Ummah] people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)." Quran 7:34​

The Prophet said, “If my (Ummah) Community keeps on the right, it is going to enjoy an age of one day, and if it becomes corrupt, it will have an age of half a day.” [Al-Munawī cites it in Fayd al-Qadīr from Shaykh Muhyī al-Dīn Ibn ‘Arabī.]​

They shall say in a low voice, one to another, - "Ye tarried but ten [century] on earth."
We are most knowing with respect to that which they will say when the most veracious of them will say. "Ye have not tarried above a day." Quran (20:104)

"And one day according to Allah’s estimation is 1,000 years according to yours. "(Quran 22:47)​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Again I will state when Bahaullah starts incorporating Sufi thought and Panenthiestic concepts into Tawhid..

That is what I am talking when I say, each sect of Islam thinks they are right.
The Truth was One, but when people of Islam, devided this Truth into so many sects, then each sect has some pieces of Truth plus some other interpretations and Tafseer given by Leaders of each sect. So, Now, when a New Revelation comes, off course, some parts of each sect of Islam is found in it, but the false Tafseers are removed. Allah said when the Day of Judgement comes, He would judge between people and solve their differences.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I mean no disrespect..but I am a believer that we should cut to the chase and be honest about our views..

Unfortunately as much as I don't like to generallize, but my experience when discussing with Muslims about religion was that, as soon as they see a different view, they call their opponant Liar. It's very unfortunate that you see a different view as dishonesty. It is always easy to lable each other liar, but this shows arrogance, to judge other's intention with absolute certainty.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"I am the servant of the Qur'an as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen One".― Rumi​

How did Rumi interpreted the story of Abraham when He was asked to Kill Four Birds?

 

[Monotheist 101]

How did Rumi interpreted the story of Abraham when He was asked to Kill Four Birds?

I donot agree with Rumi on alot of things..doesnt mean I cant appreciate his poetry