Muslim and Baha'i View about Islam

[Monotheist 101]

Unfortunately as much as I don't like to generallize, but my experience when discussing with Muslims about religion was that, as soon as they see a different view, they call their opponant Liar. It's very unfortunate that you see a different view as dishonesty. It is always easy to lable each other liar, but this shows arrogance, to judge other's intention with absolute certainty.

I think you misunderstood that post..I meant to say..I know I may be coming across as full on..but I have good intentions but hold the opinion that we should openly discuss our beliefs without holding back or being dishonest

 

[Monotheist 101]

That is what I am talking when I say, each sect of Islam thinks they are right.
The Truth was One, but when people of Islam, devided this Truth into so many sects, then each sect has some pieces of Truth plus some other interpretations and Tafseer given by Leaders of each sect. So, Now, when a New Revelation comes, off course, some parts of each sect of Islam is found in it, but the false Tafseers are removed. Allah said when the Day of Judgement comes, He would judge between people and solve their differences.

Some authentic hadith report the Prophet said that the Muslim ummah will be divided into more than 70 sects, but only one of them will enter heaven.

I think what he meant was that the True Monoteheists who guard against shirk. I think alot of the issues regarding sect lead back to the first fitna in Islam..the belief in a chosen bloodline and the incorporation of greek theology in the Islamic Golden Age and the incorporation of Hindu theology during the Mughal reign has been a major cause for these differences..

I still believe that the Sunnis who are 80% majority are the truest of Monotheists out of all the rest atm..I myself donot associate with any sect.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think you misunderstood that post..I meant to say..I know I may be coming across as full on..but I have good intentions but hold the opinion that we should openly discuss our beliefs without holding back or being dishonest

The reason that it seems I am holding back is due to my limited time, which causes delay in my response. But I am planning as soon as I get time, make a reply to all your posts so far. It would be quite a lot of information.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion...

Something perfect will never stop being perfect and it cannot be made better.
Manifestation: the materialization of a disembodied spirit. (your command of the english language does not seem upto scratch)

The Word in the verse can be translated as "Completion" or "Perfection" of a religion.
It is the same word that is used in Quran with regards to previous revelations. That is to say every time God revealed His Book it was Perfect and completed for its own Age.


As we look at the topic of the completion of religion in the light of the whole Qur'an, we find that religion is described as being completed, in quite a few verses (in addition to verse 5:3).

For instance, we find that God's favor was completed at the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph:


"And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your Lord is knowing, wise."
- Qur'an 12:6



We also find that God completed His favor through Moses:



"Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favor) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord."
- Qur'an 6:154



According to the Qur'an, the completion of the favor is also conditional upon the individual's success in obeying and fearing God:



"And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your face towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course." - Qur'an 2:150



Some argue however, that while "completion" of the favor may not be unique to Muslims, "perfection" of the religion is.
This is a matter of interpretation, and it certainly is the prerogative of the translators to have chosen the word "perfected" for the Arabic word "akmaltu". For Arabs (and others familiar with the language) however, while the word definitely conveys the meaning of perfection, and wholeness, it is also very often used to mean "completion" as we find in verses: 2:185, 2:196, 2:233, and 16:25 among others.

This same theme has also caused followers of other religions to believe that their religion was complete, not only for the duration it was destined, but for all times. For example we see that for the Christians, the favors of God were also completed on humanity through Jesus:


"And ye are complete in Him [i.e. Jesus] , which is the head of all principality and power"
- The Epistle to the Colossians, Chapter 2



It is also necessary to remember, that both completeness and perfection are among God's attributes, integral to His Essence (magnified be His name). It would be blasphemous to doubt that any of His actions and doings or favors, would be anything but complete and perfect:


"It is Allah Who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete His favours on you, that ye may bow to His Will (in Islam). - Qur'an 16:81




As to the mention of Islam as the chosen religion in the same verse (5:3), it is important to remember that while Islam happens to be the religion of "Muslims", it is also described in numerous verses in the Qur'an as the religion of submission to God, a term much more general , and includes all who submit themselves and will to God.

Let us also take the Qur'an as a whole entity, and remember the verses which explain that there is a set time for every nation and a set book. Let us also remember to examine the verses which tell us that the words of God are endless and can not be encompassed in one book.


Islam and the Baha'i Faith



Let us not forget either the verses that speak of Messengers to come:

"O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Quran 7:35

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Jesus did not bring the Gospels, they were compiled by his disciples after he died..The Injeel mentioned in the Quran is not the Gospels of the disciples..and you asking me if I read the Bible?
.

I have seen that the Muslims believe that the reason that Quran was revealed is because the Gospel got corrupted, and the original Gospel does not exist.
However this is not the Baha’I View, and I explained that by these points:
1. Even though the Gospels are written by the disciples of Jesus, that doesn’t mean the Book is corrupted, as even according to Quran, God revealed to the Disciples of Jesus, and they were True Submitters to God, and also Historically they were righteous and were Martyred, thus trust Worthy:

“And when I revealed unto the Disciples, (of Christ), ‘Believe in Me and on My Sent One!’ they said, ‘We believe; and bear witness we are Muslims’.” (Quran – 5:111)

2. Notice that Quran addresses the Christians that were living “at the time of Muhammad” to follow Gospel:

“Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."” Quran 5:68


It should be noted in the verse the Word “Gospel” is used, not "GospelS", even though, at that time there were the GospelS. The reason is all Four Gospels in Essence teach the same thing regarding the Revelation of Christ. If the Gospel did not exist in a legitimate form and was full of errors, the Quran would not ask the People of the Book to follow it.

3. In fact there are evidence that Muhammad and early Muslims believed that the People of the Book had corrupted the meaning of the Scriptures, taking them out of context, not that the actual Text is corrupted. It was only in later centuries that Muslims made up the idea that the Gospel or Torah are corrupted.

The discussion about Gospels or Gospel is not much related directly to this thread, please Refer to this thread for the list of Hadithes and Quran verses:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3146930-post55.html

4. If the Gospel got corrupted, and Quran was revealed for that reason, then one would expect that as soon as the Gospel was corrupted, God reveals Quran, or at least the True Gospel. It doesn’t make sense to say, Gospel was left corrupted for several hundred years, and then God sent a Book. Are you saying those people were let without guidance for several hundered years before Islam?

5. The Quran says that God has been given His Books including Gospel and Torah so He may Test His people, who is obedience to His Laws. If people were left with a corrupted Book, how could God test them anymore?

6. If for whatever reason the earlier Christians corrupted their Book, what was the fault of the rest of Christians that they should have been left with a corrupted Book for several hundred years prior to Quran? That is a blasphemy to the Just God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think todays Jews reject Jesus due to the corrupt version of monotheism that the church preaches...

Well, we are talking why the Jews living at the time of Jesus, rejected Him.

If you investigate Jewish Traditions, and Torah, there are signs given for Messiah.Theses signs are:

"The Messiah will arise out of an unknown city. He shall sit upon the throne of David, and behold, He shall come with a sword of steel, and with a sceptre of iron shall He rule! He shall fulfill the law of the Prophets, He shall conquer the East and the West, and shall glorify His chosen people the Jews. He shall bring with Him a reign of peace, during which even the animals shall cease to be at enmity with man. For behold the wolf and the lamb shall drink from the same spring, and the lion and the doe shall lie down in the same pasture, the serpent and the mouse shall share the same nest, and all God’s creatures shall be at rest’."

According to the Jews, Jesus the Christ fulfilled none of these conditions. Because:

"He came from Nazareth, no unknown place. He carried no sword in His hand, nor even a stick. He did not sit upon the Throne of David, He was a poor man. He reformed the Law of Moses, and broke the Sabbath Day. He did not conquer the East and the West, but was Himself subject to the Roman Law. He did not exalt the Jews, but taught equality and brotherhood, and rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees. He brought in no reign of peace, for during His lifetime injustice and cruelty reached such a height that even He Himself fell a victim to it...."


Why the Jews did not think Jesus fulfilled these prophecies? Because, they interpreted these signs literally and "outwardly" (similar to our Muslim friends!)


But Jesus did fulfill these Prophecies, in a spiritual sense:


"Although He came from Nazareth, which was a known place, He also came from Heaven. His body was born of Mary, but His Spirit came from Heaven [an unknown place]. The sword He carried was the sword of His tongue, with which He divided the good from the evil, the true from the false, the faithful from the unfaithful, and the light from the darkness. His Word was indeed a sharp sword! The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting. He exalted those Jews who recognized Him. They were men and women of humble birth, but contact with Him made them great and gave them everlasting dignity. The animals who were to live with one another signified the different sects and races, who, once having been at war, were now to dwell in love and charity, drinking together the water of life from Christ the Eternal Spring.
Thus, all the spiritual prophecies concerning the coming of Christ were fulfilled, but the Jews shut their eyes that they should not see, and their ears that they should not hear, and the Divine Reality of Christ passed through their midst unheard, unloved and unrecognized.
It is easy to read the Holy Scriptures, but it is only with a clean heart and a pure mind that one may understand their true meaning. Let us ask God’s help to enable us to understand the Holy Books. Let us pray for eyes to see and ears to hear, and for hearts that long for peace."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 54-57

 

[Sha'irullah]

I have a question for you InvestigateTruth.
How do you tackle the Islamic perspective of Jahannam or hell. It is not metaphorical I can assure you and is quite literal. Yet Baha'u'llah clearly did not accept the notion of a physical place of eternal torment.
Do you believe the Qur'an to be corrupted of some kind? Or do you blame mistranslation.

I myself am quite knowledgeable in the canonical Arabic of the Qur'an so I am curious about this. I have spent over 2 years studying the "abode of the disbeliever" in the Qur'an and have never been able to refute it on any spiritual level. But I have been able to refute it on a historical/cultural one in regards to Judaic theology.

I personally view myself as more Muslim than Monotheist101 actually. Not competing though buddy . COnsidering the effort I have put into understanding the Qur'an I often feel that most Muslims in western societies are unaware of its vast meanings and eloquent yet complex dialogue.

 

[Pastek]

COnsidering the effort I have put into understanding the Qur'an I often feel that most Muslims in western societies are unaware of its vast meanings and eloquent yet complex dialogue.

What do you mean ?

 

[sunni56]

Let us not forget either the verses that speak of Messengers to come:

"O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Quran 7:35

That's a flat out lie and a very grave deception. The verse says: Immaa ya'tiyanakum (if there comes to you Messengers). It does not say that there will be Messengers in the future coming.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's a flat out lie and a very grave deception. The verse says: Immaa ya'tiyanakum (if there comes to you Messengers). It does not say that there will be Messengers in the future coming.

There are several Translation of the verse.
The word "imma" when comes before that verb, means for sure shall come.
There are other Translations, that says "when Messenger comes" and there are other Translations that is "If there comes" All of them can be correct.
Regradless, if there was not supossed to come other Messengers, there was no reason to say "if there comes". If it was in the knowledge of God, that there will never be another Messenger, there was no reason to say "if". So, I don't think the translation that says "if" is correct.

See various Translations:

al-A`raf 7:35

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you believe the Qur'an to be corrupted of some kind? Or do you blame mistranslation.

The Baha'is believe Quran is a direct Revelation, and it is preserved well.
The interpretation is not correct in our view.
See verse 3:7, when it says some of its verses are symbolic (Mutishabihat). In our view, Hell and Heaven are described with Mutishabihat verses.
There is a verse in Quran that when a Believer was killed, God told Him, Now enter Heaven. So, if Heaven was a physical place, and going to it is left to after the Day of Rsurrection, judgement on that day, it wasn't possible for the spirit of the Man to enter Heaven right after his death.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What I can understand from your views is..that God must be imperfect..because his religion needs to be renewed every thousand years..regardless of whether it still holds up or not..

There are two concepts. One is the concept of renewal of Religion, the other is the concept of progressive revelation.

The Analogy of Religion of God, is a good Tree. It become green and alive in Spring and gives most of its fruits during the Summer and when Fall comes it turns yellow and eventually in Winter dies. Then in the next Spring, it is "renewed" again.

so, when a Revelation of God comes, God perfects His Favour to the People. Then that religion goes through stages, but generations after generations, gradually people forget the Spiritual Truth of the Religion, and add their own man-made beliefs, Tafseers and interpretations which were not part of original teachings of the prophets and what God intended by His verses.

thus, God, since He is Mercifull, He perfects His favour again, by renewing the original teachings.
This is why you see Quran says, God Perfected His Favour everytime He sent a Prophet.
The second concept is Progressive revelation. The Analogy is like different grades of school. In grade 1, we study its own Book, but next class we are given a new Book with more teachings. This is why Quran says "To each Age its Book" (see Quran 13:38-39 for complete verse)

So, renewing religion is not a because God is imperfect, but it is because we are imperfect, and forget what God teaches. If people did not forget, and did not add their own Tafseers and misinterpretations and false beliefs, there was no need for renewing.
Progressive Revelation is also because, we cannot comprehand everything at once, so, God gradually teaches us more, as humanity grows more capacity to learn and understand, and as the conditions of humanity changes from Age to Age, God brings us new Laws accordingly.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Narrated Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "We are the last (to come) but we will be the foremost on the Day of Resurrection, nations were given the Book (i.e.Scripture) before us, and we were given the Holy Book after them. This(i.e. Friday) is the day about which they differed. So the next day (i.e. Saturday) was prescribed for the Jews and the day after it (i.e.Sunday) for the Christians. It is incumbent on every Muslim to wash his head and body on a Day (i.e. Friday) (at least) in every seven days."

Well, in Jewish Scriptures, God said: “whoever breaks the Sabbath and work on the day, shall be put to death." Does Quran have the same punishment Law for Sabbath?
The Quran says, Allah turned them to Apes for breaking Sabbath. Does Allah turn a Muslim to Ape for working on Friday?

I am sure you say no But why God gave a different Law to Moses, than Muhammad?
The answer is in Quran 13:38-39:

"...to each age its Book, God annuls or confirms whatever He wills [of His earlier messages] -for with Him is the source of all revelation." http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/13/39/



That is why, since we are in a New Age, Baha'is believe a new Book is revealed and most of the Laws of Sharia in Quran are annuled by God.

As regards to the Hadith, I believe while it has an outward meaning, it also has a Figurative and inner meaning, which was the main intention of the Prophet.
Note that the beginning of Hadith is about Day of Resurrection, and if we think of this Hadith as it appears outwardly, the beginning of it is irrelevant to the last part which says “It is incumbent on every Muslim to wash his head and body on a Day (i.e. Friday) (at least) in every seven days.”
The Figurative meaning is that, in Every Age (represented as a Day in Hadith), when a Messenger appeared, those who became His followers, their “Work” was accepted by God, and those who rejected it, their Work was not accepted.
“This is the day about which they differed.” Was the Day of Revelation of Muhammad, when He came He explained the differences between the People of the Past.

From the day of Prophet Adam till Noah can be considered as Day one. Form the day of Noah until Abraham is Day two. From the day of Abraham till the Day of Moses is Day three. Once Moses appeared, the Jews accepted Him, and followed His Law, therefore they were considered to be righteous and their Work was accepted by God. On the Fifth day, when Jesus appeared, the Work of Jews was not accepted anymore, for they rejected the New Messenger. But the Work of Christians was accepted since they believed I Jesus, the latest Messenger of the time. During the sixth day, it was time for the Moslems, for they accepted Muhammad, and followed the Law of God for that Age. But once the sixth Day ended, the Muslims would not work anymore. Because Muhammad said, My People will have a period of One Day! That is to say, once the sixth day ends and the Seventh day started it is the Resurrection Time, a new Revelation would come, and God will replace Muslims with a New People. Now those New People are working!
When Hadith says “It is incumbent on every Muslim to wash his head and body on a Day”, this is a figurative reference to the Next Day (Day of Resurrection), the Revelation that should come on the day of resurrection. “Washing” is also symbolic, it is a reference to become spiritually sincere and clean on that Day (not Friday!) so, when a New Messenger comes, their work is accepted by God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Some authentic hadith report the Prophet said that the Muslim ummah will be divided into more than 70 sects, but only one of them will enter heaven.

I think what he meant was that the True Monoteheists who guard against shirk. I think alot of the issues regarding sect lead back to the first fitna in Islam..the belief in a chosen bloodline and the incorporation of greek theology in the Islamic Golden Age and the incorporation of Hindu theology during the Mughal reign has been a major cause for these differences..

I still believe that the Sunnis who are 80% majority are the truest of Monotheists out of all the rest atm..I myself donot associate with any sect.

From what I have learned through discussions with mainstream Muslims, I am not so sure about this, and I can summarize the reasons:
1. The mainstream Muslim say Salah (prayer) or fast so they can go to Heaven, or avoid Hell. But the True Worship that the Prophet taught must not be based on hope for Heaven, or Fear of Hell. It should be only because of Love for God, and worshipping Him for His own sake not for our own greed for Heaven.

2. The Mainstream Muslims imagine that Allah is somewhere up there in the universe, because Muhammad is said to have travelled to Allah for a few Days. This belief is based on outward interpretation of Quran, and the Problem with it, is to think as if Allah is a physical being located somewhere up there, thus limiting Him to a space, and this is against the teachings of Prophets, that God is infinitely high, and beyond imagination. Essentially any imagination about Allah, is just as wrong as making an idol with clay. There is no difference in making an Idol in mind, or by clay, both of them is not the One True Allah.

3. The polytheism according to Quran also includes obedience to Religious Leaders who tell them what is right and what is wrong (Haram and Halal). This is taking partner with God, and is shirk. Even as the People of the Book who obeyed their Leaders have committed shirk according to Quran.

4. Even though, if a Muslim does not go to Religious Leaders to obey directly, the Problem is current Islam, has many beliefs that are basically invented by Muslim Leaders. I have heard a Muslim Leader saying Playing Succor is Haram (This is just one example of many). The Prophet also said that His People will follow exactly the same Path as Previous People, inch by inch, so that if the Jews and Christians go to Lazard hole, they also go with them.

5. According to Quran, those who are part of a sect and rejoice about the Portion of Truth they are like those who are committing equivalent of Shirk (Taking partner with God)


The Muslim Ummah can only continue to claim to be the best of nations if it continues to live by the teachings of God.

The purpose of all religion has been to bring people together in love and unity like brothers and sisters. This is stated in beauty and perfection and in the most eloquent speech in this verse:

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided." - Qur'an 3:103


God makes it very clear that He abhors divisions, conflicts, and hatred. A people divided, can not even claim to be followers of the Prophet (PBUH):

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did." - Qur'an 6:159

When the Jews were the only ones who believed in the One True God, they were called His chosen people. When the Christians were the only ones who recognized the glory of Christ, they became His beloved. Neither of the two peoples however, continued in their practices, or showed the same devotion and obedience to the teachings as they did in earlier times. For that we read:

"And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults?" - Qur'an 5:18

God in His mercy, issued warnings to the Muslims, so they wouldn't make the same mistakes:


"And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement. On the day when (some) faces shall turn white and (some) faces shall turn black; then as to those whose faces turn black: Did you disbelieve after your believing? Taste therefore the chastisement because you disbelieved. And as to those whose faces turn white, they shall be in Allah's mercy; in it they shall-abide."- Qur'an 3:105-107

"But the sects disagreed among themselves. Then woe to those who committed evil from the punishment of a painful Day."- Qur'an 43:65

Moreover, dividing the Ummah (community) into sects is even likened to joining partners with God (shirk), as each sect becomes enamored with its own teachings, and a slave to its own doctrine. God tells us:

"Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,- Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!"
- Qur'an 30:31-32

How about the political (non-sectarian) disunity and hatred among nations calling themselves Muslim by name, yet because of greed and love for power and wealth, have fought amongst themselves causing wars and bloodshed?:

"Never should a believer kill a believer..." - Qur'an 4:92

"If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him." - Qur'an 4:93

So, can we say today that as a nation, the Muslim Ummah, has continued to adhere to the laws of God, remaining worthy of the honor of being the best of nations?
Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

The Prophet said, "Verily! 70,000 or 700,000 of my followers will enter Paradise altogether; so that the first and the last amongst them will enter at the same time, and their faces will be glittering like the bright full moon."
- Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 470

Prophet Muhammad said:

"...I hope that you would constitute half of the inhabitants of Paradise and I shall explain to you its (reason). The believers among the unbelievers would not be more than a white hair on (the body of a) black ox or a black hair on (the body of a) white ox." - Sahih Muslim 1.427

"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766

"My people will be divided into 73 sects ... Everyone will go to hell, except one ... the religion which is professed by me and my companions."
(Mishkat Vol. I Chapter 6:2)
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (PBUH) said: "The Jews were split up into seventy-one or seventy-two sects; and the Christians were split up into seventy one or seventy-two sects; and my community will be split up into seventy-three sects."
- Kitabul Sunna , Sunan Abu-Dawud (partial collection)[Book 40, Number 4579]

Best Nation

So, essentially “Oneness of God” is a lot deeper than just simply thinking in mind there is one God somewhere up there who created the World.
That doesn’t mean that Muslims are not good people. I have many Muslim friends and coworkers who are very nice people, but I don’t think their belief is the True Oneness of God as it contradicts with how the Divine Messengers of God defined Oneness.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Another question that has me baffled is..you guys believe in a spiritual resurection and judgement and that the day has passed... yet also claiming that God send messengers every 1000 years so exactly when did it pass? Between the time of Muhammad and the Bab..or everyone goes through an individual process of resurection/reincarnation...kind of like the hindus with a persian flavoring?

Everytime a divine Messenger appears that is a Day of Judgement. The day is not a literal 24 hours day. But for the duration that the Messenger is delivering the Message of God, and passing the judgement against what is right and false, that is the Judgement Day.
As regards to the Day of Judgement that was Promised in Quran, that was the Day when the Bab and Baha'u'llah appeared.

"And the trumpet is blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, save him whom Allah willeth. Then it is blown a second time, and behold them standing waiting!" Quran 39:68

It should be noted, the trumpet was to be blown Twice. The first one signifies the Revelation of the Bab (the Mahdi), and the sencond signifies the revelation of Baha'u'llah.


That is the Day the Divine Messenger recieved His Revelation.


The resurrection is a process. It is not a literal One Day. But the Day of Resurrection, starts from the Moment the Messenger recieves His Revelation from God. Then when His teachings are passed to mankind, the whole people of earth go through a gradual Transformation, and this Process continues even after the Passing of the Messengers, since their teachings is spread on the earth. It is like the Day of Spring time, and the gradual transformation of earth.

 

[Sha'irullah]

What do you mean ?

Most Muslims understand the Qur'an through another person and rarely read it themselves, I have known quite a few who have just stopped reading the Qur'an after they have read it once. Most believe the Qur'an is a straightforward story like a film. They fail to realize the Qur'an much like a study guide is to be studied to acquire further meaning.
This treatment of the Qur'an is rather superficial and does not benefit to the person especially if they believe it to be the absolute word of god.

 

[sunni56]

There are several Translation of the verse.
The word "imma" when comes before that verb, means for sure shall come.
There are other Translations, that says "when Messenger comes" and there are other Translations that is "If there comes" All of them can be correct.
Regradless, if there was not supossed to come other Messengers, there was no reason to say "if there comes". If it was in the knowledge of God, that there will never be another Messenger, there was no reason to say "if". So, I don't think the translation that says "if" is correct.

See various Translations:

al-A`raf 7:35

"Whenever" is acceptable yes, and so is "if", there is no Islamic translation or tafseer in existence that claims what you are claiming; that the verse predicts future messengers and states that Messengers will come. It's flat out linguistically wrong and theologically not acceptable.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"Whenever" is acceptable yes, and so is "if", there is no Islamic translation or tafseer in existence that claims what you are claiming; that the verse predicts future messengers and states that Messengers will come. It's flat out linguistically wrong and theologically not acceptable.

It's good you can understand Arabic. The phrase "imma yatiyyanakum" occurs in the Quran three times. 2:38, 20:123, and 7:35

See that the same Translators, has translated the same exact phrase in 2:38 and 20:123 as "sure there comes", "there shall come to you". But the same translators in case of 7:35 has done it as "if there comes", or "whenever".

See here for proof:

al-Baqarah 2:38

Ta Ha 20:123


why do you think they have translated the same exact phrase different in 7:35?

In my opinion, they were mislead, and they have mislead Muslim community. It's unfortunate Muslim community trusts the words of men, rather than trusting the Words of God.

 

[sunni56]

It's good you can understand Arabic. The phrase "imma yatiyyanakum" occurs in the Quran three times. 2:38, 20:123, and 7:35

See that the same Translators, has translated the same exact phrase in 2:38 and 20:123 as "sure there comes", "there shall come to you". But the same translators in case of 7:35 has done it as "if there comes", or "whenever".

See here for proof:

al-Baqarah 2:38

Ta Ha 20:123


why do you think they have translated the same exact phrase different in 7:35?

In my opinion, they were mislead, and they have mislead Muslim community. It's unfortunate Muslim community trusts the words of men, rather than trusting the Words of God.

That's a lie again. The "if" connotation can clearly be seen in Yusuf Ali's piece for example and also the "when". You're trying to argue with the Arabic Qur'an using English examples which will get you nowhere. Anyone who is familiar with the Arabic language knows the difference between 2:38 and the other verse. Who is more foolish than the one who argues with the Qur'an?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's a lie again. The "if" connotation can clearly be seen in Yusuf Ali's piece for example and also the "when". You're trying to argue with the Arabic Qur'an using English examples which will get you nowhere. Anyone who is familiar with the Arabic language knows the difference between 2:38 and the other verse. Who is more foolish than the one who argues with the Qur'an?

Did you miss the key word "as is sure"? (IMMA)

"We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." 2:38 (Yusuf Ali's)

and here is Asad's:

"[For although] We did say, "Down with you all from this [state]," there shall, none the less, most certainly come unto you guidance from Me: and those who follow My guidance need have no fear, and neither shall they grieve;"

and this is shakir:

"We said: Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve."

I heard that Arabs are not as much familiar with classical Arabic of Quran. Is this true?

Like I said, just let's think a about it. Let's assume that it should be translated "if" as you think. If there wasn't going to be any possibilty for any Messenger to come, why should even a verse be revealed that says "if" there comes a Messenger?