Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[Revoltingest]

Insubordinate? No such thing. Just speaking our minds.
Now...annoying? Feisty? Stubborn? Independent? I'll gladly accept those labels.

There's a difference?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't have a problem being called "insubordinate" in this thread, because apparently,...insubordinate seems to mean all those things. I will not lay down and let myself be ruled over and "punished" for not "falling in line". I will not do so because I am everything you just said. If that makes me "insubordinate" in the eyes of certain select people here...then I claim the label and wear it with pride.

It's all good, m'lady.

I'll stay being labeled a "whore".

 

[Kerr]

my point is the beat is not especially for men , also i saw some girls beat each other , and some beat boys ...etc
and we cant not generlize the beat is only for muslims men , because i am sure that western men do the same . (we are not perfect)

I never claimed we are perfect in the west . Quite frankly I believe all societies has issues with abuse and that all societies should protect the victims. Do note however that the west is a very big place and I dont think generalizing it is very constructive.

my question is the relation between , never hit the "beat level " rarely ?
as I see the "beat" is very rarely happen between the couples,because it's is something touch the dignity of the woman or the man .

Sorry, not sure what you mean. Do you wonder why the relationships you have observed rarely comes to a point at which "beating is needed"?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

There's a difference?

Maybe. Maybe not. Is there a difference between "patriarchy" and "tyranny"?

I think it's time for some trampoline jumping. :trampo:

 

[Enlighten]

yeah it's had other meaning (I forget the other meaning ) because it's rarely used ,for my opinion, the required meaning in this case for my opinion is "to beat "

Since I am new to this theory of beating a wife is acceptable, let me use the article I asked you to read and to make clear. no other person has disagreed with the articles definitions apart from you so in this case I will assume that the majority here agree that the article has standing. The article states: "Beating a wife, would contradict hadiths of the Holy Prophet who repeatedly said: “do not beat believing women!”. It would also contradict the Holy Prophet's instructions about anger – which (unless it is caused by injustice) he explained to originate from Satan and which he described as "a living coal on one's heart". One should not act upon ones anger, lest one would do things one would regret later. When you are angry when you are standing, sit down, the Holy Prophet said. And when you are still angry when you are sitting, then lie down. Interpreting this verse as allowing a husband to beat his wife, surely contradicts these rulings on anger. "

why ?

I'd like now to ask you why on earth the Qur'an would condone violence against women subordinate/insubordinate when it is very clear from the above that it goes against the very point that ""Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (Holy Qur'an 41:13)". Beating an insubordinate woman would be going against the above reference in the Qur'an.

we will study the verse :
4-34
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and beat them (or to avoid). Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

To use the article and Qur'an again, men are NOT in charge of women, they are to care for them "Superior husband and inferior wife?

Throughout the Holy Qur'an, Allah emphasizes that men and women are equal for Him – Allah will judge them in exactly the same way 3. So it would be strange indeed if a verse would contradict this equality. But is that really the case here? The Arabic word used is {qawwam}, an intensive form of {qaim}, meaning: 'to take care of, to look after'. Therefore, does this verse say that men are superior to women? Not at all. It says: men must look after women. In Islam, men are obliged to financially provide for their wife and children. They have to pay for their housing, clothing, food, medicines, etc. That is what {qawwamoona} means: men must take care of women." If you read the article in full, you will understand that it just does not make sense to "beat anyone" as would be a total contradiction.

if we suppse that the meaning is leave them (not beat them) it's mean that God repeat the meaning two times , because banish them to beds apart (mean also leave them alone ) .
the order repeated two times !!!!!
avoid them ,then avoid them !!!!
I guess it's not correct if we reach the sense .only if it's mean leave them in the bed , then in the house ( leave them first in the bed , then in alone house ) in the case it's correct .
I verify the expliantion of Quran (Tafsir) sites in arabic and english , most of the explains confirm it's "soft beat".
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -

No not repeat, take it further, read this again "he should first talk to her about it, if that doesn't help, he should begin avoiding her by leaving the marital bed. If that still doesn't resolve the situation, he should forsake her presence even more, avoid conversations, leave a room when she enters it, avoid her company altogether, and possibly leave the house for a while, so that no problems are added to the conflict, and so that things can cool down a bit to maximise chances for a later reconciliation"

Qur'anic verse 4:34

 

[Blackdog22]

I don't know exactly the solution in this case, but for my opinion .
if the man made wrong (first ) with the wife, she have to talk to him and if he did not back to his mind , she need to call her family to resolve this problem .
if not she need to ask him to divorce her .
btw : if she beat him , and he accept that , i don't mind .

Considering that even leaving the house is "insubordinate" to you, would her getting her whole family rallied against you be "insubordinate"? How exactly do you define what is or isn't "insubordinate" since it appears that if she takes almost "any" action outside of the house she is considered "insubordinate".

Now, the fact that you have also been saying that 99.9% of the wives are "subordinate" in your area, are you saying that almost every wife is scared to death of leaving their own house because they maybe beaten? I really hope that 99.9% figure isn't accurate or you are just very, very confused about your belief. Which would also make everyone around you confused about your belief.

My question to the Muslims on this forum is how many of you actually live outside the USA? If this guy is saying 99.9% of woman are "subordinate" and being subordinate means not talking to anyone, touching anyone, not leaving the house, getting tea when told too , and who the hell knows what else. What exactly does that say of the Muslim culture and how should outsiders view this?

My hope is that this person is gravely confused and someone who actually lives outside of the USA, in a Muslim culture, can comment on this. Because it appears he is using his religion as a means of abusing his wife. It also appears that almost everyone he comes into contact with has this belief as well.

Edit: I would also like to add that Godobeyer said that if a wife went to her family and she was found to be "insubordinate" by them, they would also "beat" her. So, if leaving the house is insubordinate, then basically if the dog leaves her cage she gets slapped around by everyone? The whole family joins in and starts slapping her around? Which parts of the Muslim world believe this exactly. Is this an isolated case or how widespread is this apparent mistranslation of texts? Apparently it is pretty widespread where Godobeyer lives.

 

[Enlighten]

What exactly does that say of the Muslim culture and how should outsiders view this?

Don't worry he seems to be the only one who holds this view on the forum, well the only one who has spoken up about it anyway. All others do not agree with Godobeyers view on his religion.

Edit: I will leave it to Godobeyer to respond to the remainder of your post.

 

[Godobeyer]

I never claimed we are perfect in the west . Quite frankly I believe all societies has issues with abuse and that all societies should protect the victims. Do note however that the west is a very big place and I dont think generalizing it is very constructive.

you coneserne about victimes !!!!
ok your societies should protect the victimes , what about the victimes that killed by your armies in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Libya by soldiers or plane bombs ?

and the victimes (1500) childern and women , that killed by israelis (which supported by the west) in Gaza and whole Palestine ?

Sorry, not sure what you mean. Do you wonder why the relationships you have observed rarely comes to a point at which "beating is needed"?

I mean it's rarely here , when i heard that some one beat his wife .

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What about if my wife's job is to be a prostitute though? If I send her out to have sex with other men for money, is it also okay for me to beat her for being insubordinate?

 

[not nom]

you coneserne about victimes !!!!
ok your societies should protect the victimes , what about the victimes that killed by your armies in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Libya by soldiers or plane bombs ?

so? that still doesn't make wife beating okay dude.

I mean, by your logic, "we" could just say "turn the middle east into glass, they beat their wives", you see? good thing that's not how logic works. if you steal something, it is theft even if someone else is a murderer or worse. etc.

because you can't defend it, you point fingers and say others are doing worse things.

heh, apply that logic to allah, who is complaining about people, none of whom are people into fire to burn there forever: he's clearly the worst of the bunch. still, that's not how logic works, but if it did, it would screw you over that way

 

[Draka]

I mean it's rarely here , when i heard that some one beat his wife .

One, just because you don't hear of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen behind closed doors. And two, you, and society where you are, obviously have different definitions of what it is to beat a wife.

 

[Kerr]

you coneserne about victimes !!!!
ok your societies should protect the victimes , what about the victimes that killed by your armies in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Libya by soldiers or plane bombs ?

and the victimes (1500) childern and women , that killed by israelis (which supported by the west) in Gaza and whole Palestine ?

Not "my" armies. I dont like wars at all. Do not generalize the west and us in it to one entity. But that is a completely different topic.

I mean it's rarely here , when i heard that some one beat his wife .

Ok. I do not have any knowledge about where you live, so I will leave it at that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Questions occur to me....
If it's OK for hubby to beat wifey when she has it coming, is it then wrong for her to defend herself?
If he beats her & she doesn't think she has it coming, is it then OK to defend herself?
Is it always wrong for wifey to beat hubby, even if he has it coming?

 

[Blackdog22]

Questions occur to me....
If it's OK for hubby to beat wifey when she has it coming, is it then wrong for her to defend herself?
If he beats her & she doesn't think she has it coming, is it then OK to defend herself?
Is it always wrong for wifey to beat hubby, even if he has it coming?

And would the husband consider her defending herself to be "insubordinate" and thus beat her more? Would this basically continue until she is a good, scared, subordinate doggie?

 

[Revoltingest]

And would the husband consider her defending herself to be "insubordinate" and thus beat her more? Would this basically continue until she is a good, scared, subordinate doggie?

I see potential for an unstable feedback loop.

 

[Draka]

And would the husband consider her defending herself to be "insubordinate" and thus beat her more? Would this basically continue until she is a good, scared, subordinate doggie?

There is a definite "how dare you fight back" line of thought with certain men. When my first husband was throwing me around once and he had a hold of my arms near the shoulders I had tried to throw my arms up inbetween us and push outward to break his grip and in the process I had scratched one of his arms with my fingernails. He had gotten so mad that he picked me up entirely and threw me out of the house and ...get this...called the police ON ME for domestic abuse. He showed them the scratches on his arm and made up some story about me losing my temper and attacking him. I was arrested and sitting in a holding cell before anyone would even bother to look at all the marks on me even though I kept trying to tell the cops what really happened. I sat in jail for 3 days, with no charges on me, and when I was released I returned home to find my husband, his mother, and a friend of his clearing out my daughter's belongings from my home and my daughter nowhere around. He had taken her out of the house and had her hidden. This time I called the cops in. Some men just simply don't care for being stood up to.

 

[Revoltingest]

There is a definite "how dare you fight back" line of thought with certain men. When my first husband was throwing me around once and he had a hold of my arms near the shoulders I had tried to throw my arms up inbetween us and push outward to break his grip and in the process I had scratched one of his arms with my fingernails. He had gotten so mad that he picked me up entirely and threw me out of the house and ...get this...called the police ON ME for domestic abuse. He showed them the scratches on his arm and made up some story about me losing my temper and attacking him. I was arrested and sitting in a holding cell before anyone would even bother to look at all the marks on me even though I kept trying to tell the cops what really happened. I sat in jail for 3 days, with no charges on me, and when I was released I returned home to find my husband, his mother, and a friend of his clearing out my daughter's belongings from my home and my daughter nowhere around. He had taken her out of the house and had her hidden. This time I called the cops in. Some men just simply don't care for being stood up to.

It's good you're rid of him.
(Don't get me started on cops.)

 

[Godobeyer]

What about if my wife's job is to be a prostitute though? If I send her out to have sex with other men for money, is it also okay for me to beat her for being insubordinate?

what i can replay ? how you could think in this exemple ?
could you marry a prostitute woman ? :run:

 

[not nom]

There is a definite "how dare you fight back" line of thought with certain men. When my first husband was throwing me around once and he had a hold of my arms near the shoulders I had tried to throw my arms up inbetween us and push outward to break his grip and in the process I had scratched one of his arms with my fingernails. He had gotten so mad that he picked me up entirely and threw me out of the house and ...get this...called the police ON ME for domestic abuse. He showed them the scratches on his arm and made up some story about me losing my temper and attacking him. I was arrested and sitting in a holding cell before anyone would even bother to look at all the marks on me even though I kept trying to tell the cops what really happened. I sat in jail for 3 days, with no charges on me, and when I was released I returned home to find my husband, his mother, and a friend of his clearing out my daughter's belongings from my home and my daughter nowhere around. He had taken her out of the house and had her hidden. This time I called the cops in. Some men just simply don't care for being stood up to.

O_O

just wow.

 

[Blackdog22]

There is a definite "how dare you fight back" line of thought with certain men. When my first husband was throwing me around once and he had a hold of my arms near the shoulders I had tried to throw my arms up inbetween us and push outward to break his grip and in the process I had scratched one of his arms with my fingernails. He had gotten so mad that he picked me up entirely and threw me out of the house and ...get this...called the police ON ME for domestic abuse. He showed them the scratches on his arm and made up some story about me losing my temper and attacking him. I was arrested and sitting in a holding cell before anyone would even bother to look at all the marks on me even though I kept trying to tell the cops what really happened. I sat in jail for 3 days, with no charges on me, and when I was released I returned home to find my husband, his mother, and a friend of his clearing out my daughter's belongings from my home and my daughter nowhere around. He had taken her out of the house and had her hidden. This time I called the cops in. Some men just simply don't care for being stood up to.

Good God.... That bothers me deeply. I can't imagine someone could be that violent towards a girl. I have been as furious as I can imagine with girls before, but have never, ever thought about hurting them at all. I just go take a walk or just come to a point where I say okay lets relax and text each other about how we feel.

I am so sorry that happened. Definitely not a man and definitely glad you are free from that hell hole, and your daughter.

I also don't care much for cops...