Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[Enlighten]

I told you she is bad in english and even french .
for you i will tell her the story , and sugget to her , to come her and tell you what she thought ,and i will give her the choice to accept or not .

This makes me happy, you are actually giving her the choice

 

[nameless]

Godobeyer is giving his own interpretation based on his wishes and not based on ilm or baht (knowledge or research)...and Instead of discussing with him I can do something else with my time.

Good luck to those who want to keep discussing with 'our noble scholar' Godobeyer for another 100 pages

Sorry, if i missed any other interpretation in this thread.

unfortunately, he is the only available scholar so far, if you have any different interpretation (clear translation) for the verse Godobeyer has stated, pls provide that, if you cant do that, at least stop accusing him for his interpretation. Yes, his interpretation is very irritating, but he is not wrong(does not mean he is right) unless you people proves it.

 

[Kerr]

edited :
because you understand it like, this is why they don't clearly admit it . they make me the only one here who admit that hadiths and verse of Quran !!! and that mean i am extrem opinion here !!!!
they feel shy , shame , for submision of wife to her husband !!!
but if you try to make you understand it , it's about just about insubordinate wife ,and it's about god law , and they believe as it.

Also, just to point it out, my issue is not with obedient wives. What matters most to me is that it is her choice. My issue is with how disobedience is handled.

 

[Godobeyer]

Are you sure you mean that it is a suggestion? Suggestions are not obligations. That would contradict the meaning of the word. And yes, I am picky, because of how my brain works. It cannot read "suggestion" and think "obligation", because those things are not the same.

I know that you understand it as (it's like choice to soft beat or not )
let me reexplain .

it's not like that, you don't understand my point
we are talking about " soft beat of insubordinate wife " ok ?
God suggest a solution ok ?
this SOLUTION is obeligation ,because it's came from God .

 

[Kerr]

I know that you understand it as (it's like choice to soft beat or not )
let me reexplain .

it's not like that, you don't understand my point
we are talking about " soft beat of insubordinate wife " ok ?
God suggest a solution ok ?
this SOLUTION is obeligation ,because it's came from God .

But then he wouldnt "suggest" a solution, he would say "this is the solution you have to use". There is a difference.

 

[Godobeyer]

As a muslim on RF I don't feel ashamed about any verses or sayings..and I think the other muslims aren't aswell..but in my opinion Godobeyer is giving his own interpretation based on his wishes and not based on ilm or baht (knowledge or research)...and Instead of discussing with him I can do something else with my time.

Good luck to those who want to keep discussing with 'our noble scholar' Godobeyer for another 100 pages

sorry for wasting your time
Good claim sister , that mean you are with submission of the wife to her husband that good

are you serieus sister ,you make me noble scholar , i am just copy/paste from Quran and Hadiths here

 

[Godobeyer]

But then he wouldnt "suggest" a solution, he would say "this is the solution you have to use". There is a difference.

that Kerr way , not Quran way
this is your problem ,and this is the solution

 

[Godobeyer]

now you are sugget for God , how He recite the problem and solution !!!!

 

[Kerr]

that Kerr way , not Quran way
this is your problem ,and this is the solution

Yep .

 

[Kerr]

now you are sugget for God , how He recite the problem and solution !!!!

No, I am saying it doesnt make sense to assume a suggestion is an obligation, since that would contradict the meaning of being a suggestion in the first place. If God wanted it to be an obligation he would have said so. At least if he want people to understand what he means .

 

[Godobeyer]

Sorry, if i missed any other interpretation in this thread.

unfortunately, he is the only available scholar so far, if you have any different interpretation (clear translation) for the verse Godobeyer has stated, pls provide that, if you cant do that, at least stop accusing him for his interpretation. Yes, his interpretation is very irritating, but he is not wrong(does not mean he is right) unless you people proves it.

good suggestion ,aslo, i want them to prove to me that the submission of the wife to her husband is not obligation matter in Islam .

 

[Godobeyer]

This makes me happy, you are actually giving her the choice

of course i will giving her the choice sometimes

 

[Godobeyer]

You said it was a suggestion from God to slap your wife if she didnt obey. If you then say you are obligated to follow that suggestion, then you are basically saying God says one thing and mean another.

I dont think they feel shame, I think they interpret the verses differently.


I have not read the Quran or the hadiths, so I cannot.

accuatly i feel that they feel embressing and shame to admit clearly here , that they are with the submission of the wife to her husband .

 

[Enlighten]

Sorry, if i missed any other interpretation in this thread.

unfortunately, he is the only available scholar so far, if you have any different interpretation (clear translation) for the verse Godobeyer has stated, pls provide that, if you cant do that, at least stop accusing him for his interpretation. Yes, his interpretation is very irritating, but he is not wrong(does not mean he is right) unless you people proves it.

To be fair, there are a lot of Godobeyers threads about at the moment and all seem to centre on this issue, there have been many prople providing different interpretations, but Godobeyer refuses to read what is presented to him and moves back to the "beat" is the only interpretation angle.

I myself (not a scholar :sorry1 in my attempts to understand Islam and show Godobeyer that to hit his wife is actually against what Allah and Mohamed teach, presented a scholars work to Godobeyer too on one of the threads, but again, this was rejected. Staff including Badran and ssainhu as well as Debater Slayer have also tried numerous times to present their views/articles/interpretations to him too. (there have been many more, but my memory fails me at this moment)

Edit: MuslimaInBlack has also tried to offer perspective on this too

 

[Enlighten]

of course i will giving her the choice sometimes

Remove "sometimes" then we agree

 

[Godobeyer]

Remove "sometimes" then we agree

ok for you i will remove it .
ok ,most of times, you should agree now

 

[Enlighten]

ok for you i will remove it .
ok ,most of times, you should agree now

All of the time would be even better

 

[Godobeyer]

To be fair, there are a lot of Godobeyers threads about at the moment and all seem to centre on this issue, there have been many prople providing different interpretations, but Godobeyer refuses to read what is presented to him and moves back to the "beat" is the only interpretation angle.

I myself (not a scholar :sorry1 in my attempts to understand Islam and show Godobeyer that to hit his wife is actually against what Allah and Mohamed teach, presented a scholars work to Godobeyer too on one of the threads, but again, this was rejected. Staff including Badran and ssainhu as well as Debater Slayer have also tried numerous times to present their views/articles/interpretations to him too. (there have been many more, but my memory fails me at this moment)

no ,i am not the only one who with "the soft beat " or submission of the wife
I guess all are agree with me , but they don't clearly said that .
last time, Badran tell me that he is not disgree with any verse of Quran or Hadiths .
for ssainhu, Debater Slayer I don't know if they agree with the Hadiths of submission of wife to her husband , but i guess they agree with the "soft beat for insubordinate wife"
I hope they will clear there position about hadiths and verse (submission )

I repeat about the submission of the wife there is no interpretations .and i am almost sure that they are with submission of the wife .

for "beat them" there is some interpretations , but i am with the majorty of the islam scolare which them explain it (as soft beat )
I am sorry that i talking instead of them ,I will be happy if they clearify their opinions very much and in short answsers and not ambiguous.

 

[nameless]

To be fair, there are a lot of Godobeyers threads about at the moment and all seem to centre on this issue, there have been many prople providing different interpretations, but Godobeyer refuses to read what is presented to him and moves back to the "beat" is the only interpretation angle.

I myself (not a scholar :sorry1 in my attempts to understand Islam and show Godobeyer that to hit his wife is actually against what Allah and Mohamed teach, presented a scholars work to Godobeyer too on one of the threads, but again, this was rejected. Staff including Badran and ssainhu as well as Debater Slayer have also tried numerous times to present their views/articles/interpretations to him too. (there have been many more, but my memory fails me at this moment)

thanks for elaborating the situation.

But, still curious to know if it is optional or not, as DS stated

I was just asking you if it's fardh or not.

Personally dont find it moral even to suggest beating for disobedience. Let he show his power to someone who is more healthier.

 

[beenie]

I had quoted about 15 posts ready to answer them, but realized I couldn't do so without violating several forum rules. Therefore I am just going to provide what has been asked for:

Another perspective on 4:34:

Disclaimer: Let it be known that I am NOT an apologist who is trying to deny a verse meaning something "I don't like" or that "we Muslims are trying to avoid admitting". Anyone who has read my posts on this forum knows that I am not above saying "yep, that's what it says, and it bugs me too/I struggle with it too". However, in this particular case, I really believe there is an alternative explanation that actually makes MORE sense than the most common translation.

Let it ALSO be known that I am NOT a scholar, and neither is GODOBEYER.


Here is the Verse in Question (one translation):

4:34 - Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

--gotta love the words in parenthesis...the word in question is adriboo, which as we now know, has several meanings. One is to beat; the others include, "to forsake, leave".

To understand this, we must know what the intention/purpose is behind this ayah (verse). The intention and hopeful outcome of this advice to MEN regarding their wives is RECONCILIATION. When there is a marital problem that is unable to be resolved through normal procedures (discussion, more discussion, even MORE discussion, then separate the beds, THEN comes the final straw...IMO avoid her even more). Here we are going to assume that the wife has been in the wrong and that she will see his angst by forsaking intercourse and even a normal relationship with her. A couple can still be normal without sex, but the extra step of avoiding her and possibly not speaking is entirely different.

Here is the same verse with the "forsake/leave" inserted instead of "strike".

4:34 - Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], forsake/leave them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Let's make the assumption that adriboo does indeed mean to "beat/strike". If a man were to strike his wife, a few outcomes could come of it.

1. she strikes back, subjecting herself to further strikes and a physical altercation;
2. she doesn't strike back, but packs up the children and herself and leaves;
3. stays in the marriage, "submits" out of FEAR of either his retaliation or abandonment in a culture which is nearly impossible for single Muslim mothers/women.

None of those scenarios coincides with the spirit of the Qur'an and its treatment of women. In all other matters before Allah, men and women are held to the same level of responsibility and "punishment". Why, then, would Allah give man such a "right" over their equals in the eye of Allah? Since when does man's rights supersede Allah's? To claim that adriboo means beat is erroneous and contradictory to the goal of reconciliation between husband and wife. I refuse to believe that Allah wants a woman to remain in a marriage with a man she fears.

Now on to your questions:

Do you believe the passage supports wife beating?
If yes, is it a "light" beating or just a beating?
If it is a light beating, how is that distinguished or carried out?
If no, what do you interpret it to be?

No, I do not believe the passage supports wife beating.
IMO there is no such thing as a "light" beating.
I interpret it to be a further separation/ignoring his wife. Women DO NOT like to be ignored, and it could be argued that ignoring her is worse than hitting her.

If yes, and you were beaten (God forbid) by your husband or father because of claimed rebelliousness, even if it was done "lightly", what would be your reaction? Would you allow it and do nothing, change so you were not hit again, or seek help as soon as possible because of what was done to you?
Would you react differently to the beating if it was done for something you thought (for some reason) they had a reason for versus something you thought they had no reason to do?

If my husband ever struck me I would kick his *** and leave him. IMO, striking someone is a weakness and shows lack of intellectual thinking. Instead of participating in a mature conversation, smacking is like a two-year-old temper tantrum. I don't think a husband or father ever has a valid reason to hit his wife/daughter.

If no, and you were beaten (God forbid) by your husband or father because of claimed rebelliousness, even if it was done "lightly", what would be your reaction? Would you allow it and do nothing, change so you were not hit again, or seek help as soon as possible because of what was done to you?

Same as above. I can't imagine a situation where a man would need to hit a woman to change anything. It will only instill fear.

I'll leave you with some ayahs and Hadith that will hopefully help:

"And among His signs is this; that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect."(Surah Al Rum, Chapter 30 Verse 21)

“They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them.” (Surah Al Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 187)

"Fear Allah regarding women. Verily you have married them with the trust of Allah, and made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have got (rights) over them, and they have got (rights) over you in respect of their food and clothing according to your means."

The Prophet (pbuh) also said:

"The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."

“O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. “ (Surah An Nisa, Chapter 4 Verse 19)

Anas(ra) related that Rasulullah(saw) said, "Verily, Heaven lies under the feet of our mother."