Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[beenie]

...and one of Islam's greatest role model's, Khadijah, was one of Makkah's wealthiest business women. The wife of the Prophet was no slave to him. He did quite a bit of housework too. Go figure...

 

[Pegg]

...and one of Islam's greatest role model's, Khadijah, was one of Makkah's wealthiest business women. The wife of the Prophet was no slave to him. He did quite a bit of housework too. Go figure...

so he obviously didnt think it was a form of evil if his wife worked outside the home or if he did some of the housework

yet the quote given by Godbearer from the Quran stated that it is an 'evil for a man to do the work in the home' (along those lines)

i'll go back and try and find the quote

 

[beenie]

so he obviously didnt think it was a form of evil if his wife worked outside the home or if he did some of the housework

yet the quote given by Godbearer from the Quran stated that it is an 'evil for a man to do the work in the home' (along those lines)

i'll go back and try and find the quote

Exactly. I'm on my phone but tomorrow I'll try and find some Hadith that discuss both her career and the Prophet's willingness to help around the home. I'll also provide proof that the woman IS NOT required to cook for her husband. It is his duty, if she wishes, to hire a cook for them.

So much for indoctrinated enslavement of women.

Islam has been so completely distorted by its followers it's hard to tell what's what anymore.

 

[beenie]

Found one:

The guidance of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) toward his wives is the best example. Imam Al-Bukhari reported that al Aswad said:" I asked Aisha what the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) used to do in his house? She replied:" He used to serve his wives, and when the time for prayer came he used to go out for the prayer."
Imam Ahmed reported that Aisha said:" I was asked about what the prophet used to do in his house? I replied:" He was an ordinary man, he used to sew his garment, milk his goat, and serve himself"

You have no other claim upon them, Cooking is not the duty of a wife

From this Tradition the Jurists have deduced a ruling of delicate nature and which makes men annoyed. The ruling lays down that according to the Shari'ah it is not the responsibility of a woman to cook food for the household. For this purpose the Jurists have divided women into two classes. Women of one class are those who do household work, including cooking food in their parent’s houses. The other class consists of women who do not cook food in their father’s house where cooks are employed for this work. If after marriage a woman of the latter class goes to her husband’s house she is not at all responsible to cook food, religiously, legally, morally or otherwise. On the other hand, that wife may ask her husband to hire a cook for her as man is obliged to provide her with food along with other necessaries of life.

Sacrifices of Women and Cooking is not their Duty - Status and Rights of Women in Islam

 

[gnostic]

what if the husband gets sick or injured and cannot work? How will he provide for his family if only he can be the breadwinner???

This is a major flaw of the Quran in my opinion. When very tight rules are imposed such as 'the wife is the house servant and man is the worker outside the house', then it can make life very difficult if your circumstances change.

If the man cannot work due to illness, then surely a wife should be able to do so to support her family...if she cannot because the religion has established a rule that she must only work at home, then the family will starve. Where is the wisdom in that?

You're right about that.

In the real world, nothing is ever so black-and-white. Trying to follow strict interpretation or guideline of the Qur'an (or any other scriptures for that matter), can have negative impact or disastrous consequence on the individual or group of people.

And marriage or other relationship is no different.

 

[Pegg]

Found one:

Sacrifices of Women and Cooking is not their Duty - Status and Rights of Women in Islam

Its interesting. It reminds me of how the various mosques have their own individual teachers in them who instruct the muslims who attend the mosque. Where do the individual teachers get their teachings from? Is there a central body to whom the teacher is responsible or held accountable? Because it seems that the various teachers promote different ideas and standards to follow which is probably why some muslims have very different ideas on such matters.

 

[Pegg]

You're right about that.

In the real world, nothing is ever so black-and-white. Trying to follow strict interpretation or guideline of the Qur'an (or any other scriptures for that matter), can have negative impact or disastrous consequence on the individual or group of people.

And marriage or other relationship is no different.

thats right, life is never black and white. Its like the catholic church and their rule about contraception use...it is absurd to think that such a rule is put in place when life is so difficult for families. I hate it when people impose rules on others and expect them to live by them when even God does not impose such rules on us.

 

[Godobeyer]

In other words, you still refuse to read my posts appropriately or are simply unable to make it past a few sentences (due to lack of care or whatever). Okay then, when you're ready to be serious let me know. Until then please have the courtesy to spare me your ******** advice and stop misrepresenting my position.

I wonder what is ******** ,
honestly if i instead of you i will be sorry that my post was against what Allah said in Quran.استغفر الله

you don't tell me you are against the slave of the wife , you tell me you are against the submission .
I read your claims it's just an opinion (had no reference ), and almost ambiguous to me (not clear) , mine it's an opinion , it's Quran verse and hadiths .


if i choice to follow ,if i should follow your opinion or Quran and Hadiths ?
of course i will follow what God and Muhammad said .

but if it's just misudernstand we each other , that's other problem , because I am talking with Debater and he told me that he with submission but in condition that He did not slave her . and I am compeletly agree with him.

submission in Islam never mean slavery , submission it's just kind of respect to husband .

 

[Godobeyer]

You keep talking about HER duties! I'm talking about HIS. You have NOT answered the questions I have asked at all, in any post. What is so hard about answering my questions? sister the verse of Quran and Hadiths had not exceptions .

IF a wife earns more than the husband, if she want obey God (respect the meaning of the verse and Hadiths), she should obey her husband

IF the husband makes less or nothing by EITHER circumstance or choice, there are case there is choice , some others had no choice, it's up to them , how they solve their problems and mange their life .

IF the wife then becomes the main financial provider, and the man become the main homemaker and child rearer (same answser) if she want obey God (respect the meaning of the verse and Hadiths), she should obey her husband

IS the man failing in his "duties" to god and his wife as a Muslim man? (for exemple he did not pray his 5 prayers ?)she should warning him if he back to ,it's ok , if insist to , she should ask the divorce if she want .

I am asking about the husband and HIS duties. NOT what the wife's duties are or how she should react in any way. JUST about how a Muslim man in such a situation is viewed AS A MUSLIM in regards to his perceived "duties". i answsered about the duties of husband many times . his duty is become a good man to her and care in everything (food clothes ,hospital , education to her kids ....anything she want by his limite money) and she should not ask about thing he could not buy for her ,
the result he should care about her to make her happy with him , and make her feel that he deserve to be obeyed .

 

[Godobeyer]

Brother, I realize that you are frustrated, but I think we should be calmer than this.

I'm not trying to sound like I'm patronizing you or anything, just that I hope we can keep this within the acceptable realm.

Argue with what is best.

brother Debater Slayer , I guess you are the only one who understand my point here ,
can you please intervene to resume my opinion which supported by "hadith and verse " to them .
and resume their opinion to me even in arabic .
I am not sure that they understand me as you did privatly , and i am not sure that i understand them .

 

[Godobeyer]

To those who are getting frustrated, just keep in mind that people who would assume Godobeyer's interpretation of Islam applies to all Muslims probably aren't worth the time anyway if they can't figure out that Godobeyer's interpretation is vastly outnumbered even by fellow Muslims here.

I get the frustration though. There are a lot of atheists that say facepalm-worthy things that frustrate me, too.

Plus, I think Godobeyer's a fundamentally good guy -- perhaps just with a misguided idea of relationships.

it's honor to me that this is your opinion in me ,
accuatly if they are againt the slavery of the wife , i am too
if they with duty of the wife to her husband (obey him ) as the Quran and Suna said i am too .
if they the duty of the husband to her wife "care , love , respect ....;etc " i am too

 

[Godobeyer]

I've interpreted that as a language barrier issue. Godobeyer has quoted sites without realizing the sites were satirical, for instance. I don't think he's doing it on purpose

accuatly it's the second time i found my self ,copy/paste from that site
next time i take more attention .

 

[Straw Dog]

I wonder what is ******** ,

I also greatly consider this notion of what exactly qualifies as ********.

honestly if i instead of you i will be sorry that my post was against what Allah said in Quran.استغفر الله

you don't tell me you are against the slave of the wife , you tell me you are against the submission .

Can you clarify this particular sentiment for an ignorant non-Muslim?

I read your claims it's just an opinion (had no reference ), and almost ambiguous to me (not clear) , mine it's an opinion , it's Quran verse and hadiths .

if i choice to follow ,if i should follow your opinion or Quran and Hadiths ?
of course i will follow what God and Muhammad said .

but if it's just misudernstand we each other , that's other problem , because I am talking with Debater and he told me that he with submission but in condition that He did not slave her . and I am compeletly agree with him.

submission in Islam never mean slavery , submission it's just kind of respect to husband .

What claim can any of us make that is not an opinion?

The only exception would be what we all unanimously agree upon based on evidence that cannot adequately be refuted.

I do not understand this conception of submission as synonymous with respect. My significant other tends to fully respect me as myself just as much as I respect her as herself. We submit to one another in equal measure both ways. I do not understand how balance can be established in relationship with one partner to another without an equal measure of dominance and submission.

 

[Kerr]

accuatly it's the second time i found my self ,copy/paste from that site
next time i take more attention .

Dont worry, it has happened to everyone in one way or another. Managed to find this site once where thay had these extremely fanatic opinions. Basically anyone who didnt agree with them where sent to hell, and they even said they would stand by laughing at the ones who burned. Other things I remember was one who tried to sell his daughter, another one who claimed God could sometimes allow people to rape children (in a positive light, like it was a reward), and so on. Then I found out the entire site was a satire, and everything was just a parody on Christian fanatics, lol!!!

The difference is that I was actually happy with being wrong. Really, really happy.

 

[Godobeyer]

I also greatly consider this notion of what exactly qualifies as ********.

any way i ask god to forgive him , it's he mean it .

Can you clarify this particular sentiment for an ignorant non-Muslim?

ok , to slavery a muslim in islam is something detestable in Islam ,
the husband should not "use that verse of Quran or Hadiths " to slavery his wife .
God ask her to submit to her husband as kind of respect not to be slave to him .

What claim can any of us make that is not an opinion?

The only exception would be what we all unanimously agree upon based on evidence that cannot adequately be refuted.

my claims (opinion) is based on Quran and Suna (hadiths ) which are my resouces . (not a personel opinion )

I do not understand this conception of submission as synonymous with respect. My significant other tends to fully respect me as myself just as much as I respect her as herself. We submit to one another in equal measure both ways. I do not understand how balance can be established in relationship with one partner to another without an equal measure of dominance and submission.

it's something should be experienced to know/taste it .
anyway it's long and with many conditions ,maybe i resume it to you : if to obey her husband should , he should his duties to her (it's exchange duties), or she ask the divorce for him if she want to leave.
maybe my brother Debater Slayer ,maybe could explain it more that me .

 

[gnostic]

ok , to slavery a muslim in islam is something detestable in Islam ,
the husband should not "use that verse of Quran or Hadiths " to slavery his wife .
God ask her to submit to her husband as kind of respect not to be slave to him .

But if you follow to the letter of the Qur'an 4:34, she is basically a property to punish if she disobey. You, yourself gave an example that could punish her if she went out without your permission. If a wife can be beaten (hard or soft, it doesn't matter) for disobedience, then how is that different to slavery?

 

[Godobeyer]

But if you follow to the letter of the Qur'an 4:34, she is basically a property to punish if she disobey. You, yourself gave an example that could punish her if she went out without your permission. If a wife can be beaten (hard or soft, it doesn't matter) for disobedience, then how is that different to slavery?

there is no but IF we follow it, We should follow it , why ?
because we are muslims , we need to follow the meaning , not our desires or wrong interpretations .
I wounder how you (not a muslim) cleary confirme/understand it's about punish if she disobey !!!, and they don't !!!!!???
and that's what i dispute with other muslims brothers and sisters

by the way it's not only that verse which order the wife to obey to her husband there are many Hadiths , tell the same here :
Pink Islam | Muslimah - The obligation of a woman obeying her husband

of course i will punish her and maybe divorce her, because it's considerate in Islam as disoboyer
and this is the jugement (Fatwah) of this situation from www.islamweb.net
Wife goes out without husband's permission - Islamweb.net -English
and this is the explaination of the verse 4-34 WORD BY WORD :

Explanation of Surah an-Nisa':[4:34]

Fatwa Date : Safar 24, 1423 / 7-5-2002

Question


Please could you explain the verse 34 in Surah An-Nisa': {As to those women on whose part you see ill*conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great} .
I really need some clarification especially on the part: {…(and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), …} . Your help would be appreciated extremely.




Answer


All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger. We ask Allaah to exalt his mention as well as that of his family and all his companions.
Allaah Says (what means): {Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allaah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allaah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allaah is Ever Most High, Most Great.} [Quran 4:34].
The interpretation of this verse is that Allaah gave men the duty of protecting, helping and supporting women; this means that a man is responsible for the protection, help and support of the woman, and Allaah granted him with such a right for two reasons:
1- Allaah stated this reason in the Quran: {… because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other,…}. This excellence is due to the man being of a sound reasoning more than the woman, having a better insight and better in conducting affairs than a woman when facing emergencies and missions. It is for such reasons that Allaah assigned Prophecy, Caliphate, Jihaad (fighting in Allaah's Cause) and earning the daily bread to men.

.....continous to next reply

 

[Godobeyer]

2- It is due to the man spending on their wives, Allaah Says (what means): {…and because they spend (to support them) from their means. …}. Thus, if a husband gives up financial support to his wife, he undermines and negates the support, maintenance and help to his wife, and the judge may divorce his wife from him.
Then, Allaah mentions in the verse the quality which a Muslim woman must have. He Says (what means): {…Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allaah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allaah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.)…}. This means that women must be obedient to their husbands, keep their chastity and safeguard their husbands' rights and wealth when they are absent. This form of safeguarding from a righteous woman is, in fact, from Allaah's Help and Guidance to her, this is what is meant by His Statement {… what Allaah orders them to guard…}
After that, Allaah mentions the qualities of a corrupt woman, as He Says (what means): {…As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). …}.
Ill conduct in the verse means disobedience and refusal to obey her husband in what is permissible; Allaah advised the husbands to follow some steps in dealing with such disobedient wives:
1- Admonishing: Allaah Says (what means): {… admonish them…}. Admonition is to remind her of Allaah and of His Punishment and Wrath as she might repent to Allaah and fulfil her husband's rights. However, if she continues to be disobedient, then he moves to the second step.
2- Refusing to share the bed with her: He should not share the bed with her nor have sexual intercourse with her. In other words, he turns his back to her in bed. If she continues to be disobedient, he resorts to the third and last step.
3- Beating her slightly: Beating should not break a bone, disfigure a limb or spoil a benefit, like the sight and the like. Beating is among the requirements of being a protector and maintainer of the wife. However, the husband is not permitted to beat his wife unless she is disobedient. Allaah Says (what means): {…but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)}.
Resorting to beating is the last step which a husband should undertake in correcting his disobedient wife. If all of this is of no avail, then the matter should be taken to a Muslim judge who will study the matter or will appoint two arbitrators, one from his family and the other from hers, so that they will reconcile between them or oblige the husband to divorce his wife. This is what is meant in the statement of Allaah which comes after the above verse (which means): {If you fear a breach between them twain (the man and his wife), appoint (two) arbitrators, one from his family and the other from her; if they both wish for peace, Allaah will cause their reconciliation…} [Quran 4:35].
In this concern, Allaah specifically mentions sending two arbitrators from the relatives of the husband and wife because they know the situation of the two parties better than anyone else.
Finally, the following points should be mentioned:
1- The fact that a man is more conscious than a woman and more able in doing the matters of protection and maintenance (of his wife), is a general rule and not an absolute one, as there are also women who are better than many men, they are more wise, better in conducting affairs, and more intelligent, but the religious rulings are based on what is general and dominant.
2- The religious permission for a husband to beat his wife is conditioned upon strict rules and permitted on a very limited scale. Therefore, it is very rare for a husband to beat his wife. The evidence about this is that according to reliable and trustworthy statistics published by the west, women in western societies are physically abused in large numbers compared to Muslim societies.
Finally, it should be noted that some Muslim husbands beat their wives without any right. However, it is not at all just to refer the mistakes of such husbands to a wife Islam; this means that those who try to make people doubt about the justice of Islam in this context have a vile objective trying to fish in troubled waters, but Allaah is sufficient in defending Islam against them.
Allaah knows best.


from the same site : www.islamweb.net
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&lang=E&Id=84120

 

[Godobeyer]

my question now is :
Me and Debater are with this explaination .that cleary with the obedience of the wife to her husband .
are Badran , Ssainu with or against ?

 

[beenie]

You are getting so repetitive it's absurd.
I feel like a broken record, and I've answered your question several times.

The "scholar" you just quotes is his opinion, and one I don't agree with. I find his assessment of women quite disturbing, referring to them as less intelligent as men. He contradicts himself by then admitting that there are some women better than men...
His insistence that beating women is a requirement for "correcting" a disobedient wife is beyond a dislike of women. Opinions like his are why there are sites like the one you quoted and many many more.

You are not going to convince me that Allah says to beat your wife (lightly), THEN call in arbitrators to help.

"I tried to beat her and make her submit, I didn't work. Let's go BACK to non-violent measures and see if that works.". Ummmm, what?

If submission is defined as you have defined it, then I reject it. (getting beaten for going out, refusing intercourse, etc.)

I also think you have a very low opinion of women, as you have never provided a verse or Hadith that compliments or praises women. Rather, you love to post all of the verses and Hadith that paint women in a poor light.

I'm with Badran. When you decide to have a real, intellectual, unbiased discussion, I'll join you. Until then, please stop repeating the same thing over and over again. We all know your opinion about this, we disagree with it, and unless you have something new to contribute, there's nothing else to be said.