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Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"
- Thread starter Draka
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of course , that the exactly the meaning .
I feel it and see it , and God only the knowing .
والله اعلم
So non-Muslims and Muslims can't agree on something or like each other now? If I'm friends with non-Muslims, you're saying (once again) that I'm. Of a "real" Muslim?? I am a real Muslim, and that's why I'm against wife-beating, submission to a human being, misogyny, and excluding people of different faiths from being my friends.
And you're right about one thing, God knows best.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
The Godobeyer's post demonstrate some of the problems Christians have, when discussing things with some Muslims.
Some Muslims cling to what seems to be outdated interpretations, and are quite incapable of making the necessary mental leap into a modern understanding of their faith.
Of course there are Christians equally stuck in the middle ages of primitive interpretations.
And it is Just as difficult to discuss things with them.
This has been a long thread with many good arguments. However they seem to have penetrated the brain of Godobeyer not a jot. It is as if he only reads and understands things that he already "Believes"
The only way to a brighter future is for us to be patient with his ilk , and do all we can to bring light to to those in darkness.
Some Muslims cling to what seems to be outdated interpretations, and are quite incapable of making the necessary mental leap into a modern understanding of their faith.
Of course there are Christians equally stuck in the middle ages of primitive interpretations.
And it is Just as difficult to discuss things with them.
This has been a long thread with many good arguments. However they seem to have penetrated the brain of Godobeyer not a jot. It is as if he only reads and understands things that he already "Believes"
The only way to a brighter future is for us to be patient with his ilk , and do all we can to bring light to to those in darkness.
If you are not a real Muslim for getting along with non-Muslims then I am not a real atheist since I am not running around naked with a megaphone infront of churches, harrasing religious people with nudity and insults
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Get with the program!If you are not a real Muslim for getting along with non-Muslims then I am not a real atheist since I am not running around naked with a megaphone infront of churches, harrasing religious people with nudity and insults
that's not my point . what i mean that they are influenced by the west , and they try to find a "personl " interpretation (explaination ) for clear Hadiths and Quran, (explaination of their mind ) , not from credible sholars as i do , as we all the muslims know and follow .If you are not a real Muslim for getting along with non-Muslims then I am not a real atheist since I am not running around naked with a megaphone infront of churches, harrasing religious people with nudity and insults
No! I want to crush religion my way!
One word....
Supermindcontrolrodofdoom!
Muhahahaha!!!
I somehow doubt that they are doing that. Is it so hard to understand that what is clear for you may not be clear for someone else? Or that the someone else in question may have a different understanding and consider it to be clear?
Apparently not ALL the Muslims follow like you do.
Oh, and in case you have forgotten, Badran lives in EGYPT.
Draka
Wonder Woman
Again and again and again and again, over and over and over and over. You keep talking about a wife obeying. You are stuck on it. I'm not even asking about it. I've told you time and again I'm not asking about what the woman should do. You are so stuck on making a wife into a slave you won't hear anything else. I've tried to broach a particular subject with you many times over now and you have failed to directly answer it each and every single time I've asked. The only thing you seem to know how to say is that a wife should OBEY.
I'm feeling a bit like this now.
) سورة البقرة - سورة 2 - آية 120الميزان في تفسير القرآن تقريب القرآن إلى الأذهان نور الثقلين
ولن ترضى عنك اليهود ولا النصارى حتى تتبع ملتهم قل ان هدى الله هو الهدى ولئن اتبعت اهواءهم بعد الذي جاءك من العلم ما لك من الله من ولي ولا نصير
And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper.
Oh, just stop it already.
Did you not forget that toward the beginning of all our debates so far, and at various times throughout, non-Muslims like Trey of Diamonds and Meow Mix have come to your defense and have shown courtesy and small affections toward you?
Do you need a Big Squishy Hug, you adorable little Poe, you? :foryou:
gnostic
The Lost One
godobeyer said:
I don't really care what the Qur'an say, since I am not Muslim. And I don't really care what fatwah any scholar give. A marriage is not about a husband, wife and scholar, so I don't give a flying crap about any fatwah.
My only concern is how a husband treats his wife.
To me, such a marriage where one (man) is superior to another, simply because of GENDER, is highly archaic and misogynistic, no matter how you look at it. And if such a book or scripture promote such inequality, is also archaic and misogynistic.
That a wife has to be obedience to her husband simply because he is a MAN and she a WOMAN, because of what some books tell you, is more akin to master-slave relationship than a marriage of 2 partners with shared responsibilities.
There no need for one person giving order while the other has to obey. And a wife can respect her husband without obedience/disobedience rule. To me, it is disgusting practice, if you follow the scripture to the letter.
What I do care about is how you would handle matter in a (real) situation where she does something you don't like or you had forbidden her.
In real life, the world is not so black-and-white, where you can live under the rules of scriptures that was written over a thousand years ago. There are too many variables in the relationship where it may go wrong, and not all of them required such basic rule or solution as that of verse 4:34.
Today, women can just be as strong or as intelligent as any man.
What if the woman is the breadwinner or simply make more money than you? Shouldn't the husband be obeying her, since she is the breadwinner or make more money than him?
If say no to both questions above, then either you or your religion is playing double standard.
What if the husband was injured, that he can't work, does a wife still need to ask permission to go out to work, shop or visit friends?
Can a wife hit her husband if she is more intelligent (or stronger) than him and he disobey her?
I think it gross stupidity for anyone to blindly follow any rule.
This "protector" thing which you believe to be the husband's duty, may or may not be true over a hundred years ago, but since then in most Muslim-dominant countries, a woman can get university education, work, drive car and vote, seeing wife's duty at home, is a thing of the past.
Oh.My.Dear.God.
^^ This is how I feel now^^
I genuinely thought he "got it" after talking with DS.
Yes, with Godobeyer's logic, if a woman is the breadwinner and therefore chooses to spend of her wealth on her husband, then surely he should obey her.
Fuzzy logic, huh. Islam is supposed to be for all times, and therefore will adapt to modern times. To remain consistent, I don't think that if the woman is the breadwinner then the man should obey her either. IMO a relationship is still a partnership no matter who makes the money, and working together in agreed-upon responsibilities *subject to change* is what makes a marriage work.
Fuzzy logic, huh. Islam is supposed to be for all times, and therefore will adapt to modern times. To remain consistent, I don't think that if the woman is the breadwinner then the man should obey her either. IMO a relationship is still a partnership no matter who makes the money, and working together in agreed-upon responsibilities *subject to change* is what makes a marriage work.
Draka
Wonder Woman
Ah, but he's said that even if a woman makes the most money it doesn't matter, she still must obey the husband. Whether he performs his "duties" or not, even if she provides for him in all ways, she must OBEY him as that is her "duty".
This is what I don't get from him. He keeps talking about her duties and what she should do and how she should respond and if she doesn't, how she should be punished. If she fails in her duties she is "insubordinate", she can be slapped or beat. Yet he completely fails to address the issue of a man not performing his perceived "duties". He doesn't even seem to see that as a possible issue. How is the man viewed? What is his standing as a Muslim man? Is he failing god in any way?
Even if a couple agrees that they function best as a family unit with her being the sole breadwinner and he being the homemaker and childrearer, does this fly in the face of Islam and the "duties" prescribed to them by god? Are they being bad Muslims? Is the man failing god?
He doesn't address any of these points with anything other than repeatedly saying...the wife should OBEY. He is stuck on that word. And by doing so and refusing to address any other issue he quite clearly relegates women to nothing more than property and slaves. No amount of saying he respects women will change that for that is a lie. No one can have any respect for women and yet say the things he has here.
Misogyny does not hold man accountable for his thoughts, speech, or action.
It is inherently more focused on establishing superiority over women, making them the target for all matters. So, of course asking the questions about the accountability of a man will always result in the glazed-over look from a misogynist.
That would be like asking you how do dogs breathe underwater....that doesn't equate to reality. Much like how a misogynist man being held accountable for his actions toward women BY a woman seems equally weird.
It is inherently more focused on establishing superiority over women, making them the target for all matters. So, of course asking the questions about the accountability of a man will always result in the glazed-over look from a misogynist.
That would be like asking you how do dogs breathe underwater....that doesn't equate to reality. Much like how a misogynist man being held accountable for his actions toward women BY a woman seems equally weird.
Hey, I told you I'm with it, but not the way you view it. Not in an authoritarian, autocratic way; not in a way that allows the husband to do whatever the heck he wants in the name of being a "leader". The husband is a leader and the wife should obey him (and that, also, depends on a lot of variables, so to speak), to reiterate, but not in a way that enslaves her and makes her suffer as a mere sexual object.
There. Please, next time you talk about what I support or don't support, make sure to ask me to come here to explain first.
و يشهد الله أني الآن أتكلم بغض النظر عن أي شئ و بغض النظر عن آراء الآخرين في، و لكني لا أقبل أن يتم تأويل تفاسير القرآن كي تكون في صالح غطرسة و ظلم بعض الأزواج كما يفعل البعض
On another note, I had hoped that my talk with GodObeyer was enough to call for a truce and end this thread well. For shame.
I'm sorry to play Switzerland here, but it's the only way to relate your thoughts to each other as the language barrier is really bad. I discussed this with GodObeyer via PM and I got what he meant, and despite not agreeing with all of it, I realized that he can't express most of it clearly here, hence why most of it comes across as completely absurd.
GodObeyer thinks that the wife should obey her husband, according to interpretations of the Qur'an, but not in a way that turns her into a slave of the husband. It's a relationship of mutual respect, and the husband should perform his duties fully as well to earn that. Only a respectable, duty-fulfilling husband is eligible for full rights.
In other words, a husband has as much rights as he fulfills his duties. The same holds true for the wife.
I hope this was helpful, and if any of you have any more questions regarding the debate or any difficulties understanding each other, I'd be more than happy to help.
Edit: I thought I should add this to reinforce my statements: I'm an Arabic native speaker, from Egypt, and I currently live in Saudi Arabia. You know what that means? It means I actually live in the country of Mecca and Medina, and the two Harams. No more questions of language barriers or being a "Western" Muslim.
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:clap
انا تكلمت معك من قبل....عندما وضحنا الامور حول واجب الزوج و عدم إستغلال هذه الابية و الاحاديث لأستعباد المرأة. يعني انني لا اخالفك في الراي
me too i told you i am against use this verse to slavery and abuse the wife
here i don't understand what you mean ?
i am aleardy wiating for tell them what you understand from the , but it's ok
you are now tell them , what God realy told his Holy Book Quran .
انت الان قلت كلمة حق في الدين و ووضحته وجزاك الله على هذا
:clap
هذا ليس راي بل ما قاله الله
this is not my opinion , it's what God told the wives .
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
It was Adams sin in the Garden of Eden led the man to dominate over his wife. Anyone who wants to rid themselves of Adams sin (especially considering that sinner became alienated from his maker) needs to seriously consider how they themselves will reverse this very prevalent type of sin.
Just ask yourself why God forewarned Eve about the domination she would experience.... do you think it may likely be because it was something that she had not experienced prior to the man becoming a sinner?
Yes, it was. And that is why God informed her of what was coming....and if the man had of remained in unity with God, his domination over his wife would never have occurred in the first place. The dominating attitude toward womenkind came as a result of sin.
But Adams attitude toward his wife while he was still perfect was quite different:
Genesis 2:23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh.
This one will be called Woman, Because from man this one was taken.”
24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed.
Adam viewed the woman as his soul-mate, his life partner... a part of his own flesh. He even named her after himself (man/wo-man) because at that time, she was his exact equal.
So he had an exulted attitude toward her. She was a treasure to him and he treated her as his equal...he didnt lay down rules on her and tell her what to do. That is the attitude that men need to work towards if they want to be perfect. Stop viewing women as a servant, a sex object, an incubator, a trophy, a toy, a plaything, a pain in the backside .... you get my drift.
Just ask yourself why God forewarned Eve about the domination she would experience.... do you think it may likely be because it was something that she had not experienced prior to the man becoming a sinner?
Yes, it was. And that is why God informed her of what was coming....and if the man had of remained in unity with God, his domination over his wife would never have occurred in the first place. The dominating attitude toward womenkind came as a result of sin.
But Adams attitude toward his wife while he was still perfect was quite different:
Genesis 2:23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh.
This one will be called Woman, Because from man this one was taken.”
24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed.
Adam viewed the woman as his soul-mate, his life partner... a part of his own flesh. He even named her after himself (man/wo-man) because at that time, she was his exact equal.
So he had an exulted attitude toward her. She was a treasure to him and he treated her as his equal...he didnt lay down rules on her and tell her what to do. That is the attitude that men need to work towards if they want to be perfect. Stop viewing women as a servant, a sex object, an incubator, a trophy, a toy, a plaything, a pain in the backside .... you get my drift.
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No , there is no in execpetion in Hadiths and Quran , if i am told that you misunderdand me .
let make result here:
the Quran is arabic and there are many translations ok ?
the translations considere Quran ? or meaning(explaination) of Quran ?
of course the translations considerate the meaning of Quran.
if you against the meaning of Quran (the translation) and the explainations of the great muslims scholars ( tabari, Ibn Kathir ,) that mean you are in danger,about your faith .
in old time Jews and Christains were against the context of Bible (that God want) , that why they edited to follow their desires .
if you have a doubt about the meaning of Ayah , check this site
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir
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