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Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

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that women like aggressive men? lulz.

women like men who keep them on their toes (and vice versa :D) while also making them feel safe/happy (or at least not threatened/unhappy), (and vice versa), yeah... so not being pushed around by others surely helps... but that's hardly aggression (which is usually a result of insecurity or stupidity rather than "strength").

Ok, do this little experiment and get back to me. Be nice to a woman and see what you get in return. Then be aggressive, verbally and sometimes physically, and see what you get as a result. Do this, and then report to me.
 

Enlighten

Well-Known Member
Ok, do this little experiment and get back to me. Be nice to a woman and see what you get in return. Then be aggressive, verbally and sometimes physically, and see what you get as a result. Do this, and then report to me.

:facepalm: Sarcasm ring a bell? If this was in response to the "that women like aggressive men? lulz." comment, but I don't see it fits with the rest
 

Bismillah

Submit
The idea of the man beating the wife stems from Chapter 4 verse 34, with many variants in interpretation.

All scholars agree that a women may not be hit on the face, and that there may not be any mark caused by the injury. Some believe that the husband has the right to hit is wife physically as long as he abides by the above regulations. Some scholars follow the view that it is a symbolic action and done by either a a toothbrush or by throwing a folded napkin at her. There is another view amongst scholars who view that the word itself has nothing to do with "hitting" but rather implies separation of the spouses.

Firstly, it is important to realize that the traditional view of "lightly hitting" a spouse is viewed as a symbolic action. It is not used as something of physical harm but rather of emotional nature. The nature of the action speaks for itself rather than implying that physical abuse is a prerequisite for it to be effective. Secondly, the Qur'an mandates that spouses must first leave each others' bed meaning that such an action is done after reflection over the conflict limiting powerful and fleeting emotions such as anger or haste pushing a husband to physically harm his wife. Thus what we have is a cultural expression of extreme discontent and anger over a particular issue, but not a mandate for domestic abuse.

Those who reject the idea of hitting have several evidences by which they reexamining the verse according to the Qur'an and attributed Prophetic sayings, as well as analyzing the Arabic grammar of the word itself. These are surmised as follows

The Qur'an establishes a spousal arrangement based on kindness and love
Al-Qur'an 3:21 said:
And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.
And the Qur'an states indicates that a husband should not deal harshly with his wife
Al-Qur'an 4:19 said:
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a something that Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
The Prophet himself never beat his wives and strongly condemned it
Bukhari said:
How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?
Do not beat the female servants of Allah
Some (women) visited my family complaining about their husbands (beating them). These (husbands) are not the best of you.
Whereas
I recommend that you treat women with goodness. The best of you are those who treat their wives the best.
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.
This may be all well and good, but to have a convincing case the verse itself needs to be addressed.

The word itself iḍribūhunna comes from the root daraba ضرب

It can have many meanings and connotations and is used in the Qur'an many times including

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
To beat: 8:50; 47:27
To set up: 43:58; 57:13
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
To take away, to ignore: 43:5
To condemn: 2:61
To seal, to draw over: 18:11
To cover: 24:31
To explain: 13:17

For example

57:13 يَوْمَ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالْمُنَافِقَاتُ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا انظُرُونَا نَقْتَبِسْ مِن نُّورِكُمْ قِيلَ ارْجِعُوا وَرَاءكُمْ فَالْتَمِسُوا نُورًا فَضُرِبَ بَيْنَهُم بِسُورٍ لَّهُ بَابٌ بَاطِنُهُ فِيهِ الرَّحْمَةُ وَظَاهِرُهُ مِن قِبَلِهِ الْعَذَابُ
Pickthall said:
On the day when the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women will say unto those who believe: Look on us that we may borrow from your light! it will be said: Go back and seek for light! Then there will separate them a wall wherein is a gate, the inner side whereof containeth mercy, while the outer side thereof is toward the doom.
Thus the root itself has many meanings and thus this translation is up to view.

This would leave the verse's translation using the word to mean "to seperate" as
[...]as for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.
And followed by the verse
Al-Qur'an 4:35 said:
And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.
The excerpt "desire amendment" is pointed out as a reference to the state of separation as opposed to the reverted meaning of "beating" which makes less sense within the context.

Furthermore, this entire process is begun because of "extreme ill-will" or nushuz. This mention of ill-will amongst spouses is also mentioned later in the Qur'an where the husband is the offender (source of nushuz) wherein the Qur'an states
Al-Qur'an 4:128 said:
If a wife fears ill-treatment (nushuz) or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best[...]
Within this above verse the wife is encouraged to reconcile which sets a double standard while using the same root word and using the same origin of the conflict (nushuz), thus the translation should logically follow that drb be translated as to separate.

Furthermore, there is another opinion that the breach (nushuz) is very severe. In fact it is described as
The literal meaning of the word is "rebellion". But rebellion against whom and in what sense? We should certainly not think of this in terms the rebellion of the ruled against a ruler in a sultanate or dictatorship and conclude that it consists of the wife disobeying some of the husband's commands. This is because the same word nushuz is used in case of a husband in verse 128 of the same surah 4, where it is said: "If a woman fears nushuz on her husband's part..." So nushûz is something that can be feared by the husband on the wife's part or by the wife on her husband's part. It cannot therefore be understood in terms of the ruler-ruled relationship. To correctly understand the meaning of the word, it must be noted that both in the verse under consideration and in verse 128 the reference to nushuz is followed by a reference to the break-up of the marriage (see vv. 35, 130). If this context is kept in mind, then it becomes evident that nushuz means the type of behavior on the part of the husband or the wife which is so disturbing for the other that their living together becomes difficult. ...In short, nushûz is a behavior on the part of one marriage partner which comes out of ill-will and seriously disturbs the other partner.[11]
This has been thought to reference to sexually lewd behavior that was witnessed however with the absence of the stringent requirements for zina (four honorable witnesses seeing the penetration of the vagina) called fahisha mubina. Thus there is a crime enforced by a beating (again following the two roles posted in the very beginning regarding he face and physical marks) as judged and carried out by a competent Shari'ah qadi or judge. Thus the beating is not the sole mandate of the man to decide, judge, and execute as man is often fallible and jealous. But rather one that can be applied equally to both man and women by an objective third party. This is the view expressed by the prominent classical scholar Ibn Rushd, 20th century scholar Muhammad Asad, and contemporary scholar Khaled Abou Fadl though the latter views that the arcane legal practice has since ended since the 10th century and can be found here)

Edit: By the way many people use Pickthall's translation which employs the word scourge however he himself did not believe that men had the authority to physically hit another women.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
i'm sorry, this is tripe to me.
who needs to be told how to treat their wife?

this is nothing other than a diversion to take the attention away from a contradiction in the quran...
imo.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Were women treated like animals until Islam came about? I don't get the necessity of an instruction manual either, so that's my assumption.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Were women treated like animals until Islam came about? I don't get the necessity of an instruction manual either, so that's my assumption.
There is a hadith from Umar who went to the Prophet. The Prophet had left his wife because he was angry at her and Umar, to cheer him up, jokingly said Ya Rasullalh before Islam we used to break their necks in anger, now they surely have the upper hand". Of course the we is rhetorical but the implication stands of the difference in marital affairs with the advent of Islam as well as the example of the Prophet (who note separated himself from his wife)
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
I must admit, I did miss these so let me provide answer as I think they are relevant:

Should all relationships be based on dominance or partnership or should it be a persons choice. Partnership

If a person prefers to be the subordinate in a dominate style relationship, is it right to demand that they change to a partnership style relationship? Would they truely prefer this or is it because it is the "norm" in their society or religion?

It is clinically proven that some people prefer to be dominated in a relationship. Now the reason for that preference can be societal conditioning but its still a preference. I see by the answers above that you don't think people should have a choice in their relationship and if someone prefers to be the subordinate in a relationship they should be forced to participate in a partnership. My question is, how does this make you different than the people who force someone who prefers a partnership into a dominate style relationship?
 

Enlighten

Well-Known Member
It is clinically proven that some people prefer to be dominated in a relationship. Now the reason for that preference can be societal conditioning but its still a preference. I see by the answers above that you don't think people should have a choice in their relationship and if someone prefers to be the subordinate in a relationship they should be forced to participate in a partnership. My question is, how does this make you different than the people who force someone who prefers a partnership into a dominate style relationship?

My responses are actually in line with what you have above, purely my preference, what works for me. I don't want you to take my responses out of context, I am all for choice in a relationship, to me partnership is a choice, my husband and I make choices daily, some differ, but this isn't a problem as we are a couple/partnership. If someone is truely happy to be subordinate through their own choice then fine, that is their choice, but I firmly believe that noone should be forced to be one way or the other.
 
i'm sorry, this is tripe to me.
who needs to be told how to treat their wife?

this is nothing other than a diversion to take the attention away from a contradiction in the quran...
imo.

Looking at the Quran itself, I'm surprised that most have glossed over my post showing that daraba, the word itself, has several other meanings, and thus the Arabic is open to interpretation.

The translation I provided translated the word 'daraba' to 'separating' rather than any indication of hitting at all.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
My responses are actually in line with what you have above, purely my preference, what works for me. I don't want you to take my responses out of context, I am all for choice in a relationship, to me partnership is a choice, my husband and I make choices daily, some differ, but this isn't a problem as we are a couple/partnership. If someone is truely happy to be subordinate through their own choice then fine, that is their choice, but I firmly believe that noone should be forced to be one way or the other.

I agree, I probably should have phrased the question better. I was asking if folks thought there should be choice in a realationship rather than what was their specific choice. At least its clarified now and you're right, we are totally in line. :D
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
There is a hadith from Umar who went to the Prophet. The Prophet had left his wife because he was angry at her and Umar, to cheer him up, jokingly said Ya Rasullalh before Islam we used to break their necks in anger, now they surely have the upper hand". Of course the we is rhetorical but the implication stands of the difference in marital affairs with the advent of Islam as well as the example of the Prophet (who note separated himself from his wife)

speaking from my perspective as a cuban...
i most definitely have ancestors from spain which was occupied by the moors

i can't help but notice the machismo tendency in my cuban heritage. my husband is swedish/finish and i find little to none of that tendency, of course there are disputes but it doesn't go there as i have personally witnessed how my cuban father treats my cuban mom. so then, as a cuban i often wonder if the moors had anything to do with influencing the lingering machismo trait i so often find within my heritage?
 
speaking from my perspective as a cuban...
i most definitely have ancestors from spain which was occupied by the moors

i can't help but notice the machismo tendency in my cuban heritage. my husband is swedish/finish and i find little to none of that tendency, of course there are disputes but it doesn't go there as i have personally witnessed how my cuban father treats my cuban mom. so then, as a cuban i often wonder if the moors had anything to do with influencing the lingering machismo trait i so often find within my heritage?

Machismo does not have to be a moorish trait, if at all...

Just because I come from a Filipino background, which also has ties to Spanish Christian culture and heritage, does not mean that machismo is something necessarily inherently passed down interculturally. Machismo has existed in many cultures even before the advent of Islam, such as Roman culture.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I have seen the argument here, by a Muslim, that it is acceptable for a husband to slap or "softly" hit his wife if she is "wrong". That it makes her feel more "feminine" and that it proves she is with a "man". That this is acceptable within Islam.

Is this stance something actually accepted within Islam? That physical punishment of a wife by her husband is the norm and okay? Or is this a fringe thought held only by some Muslims?

I know that men of all different faiths, and non-faith, will sometimes treat their wives and GFs like this, but I don't believe it is actually a held and accepted tenet of any other religion that I know of that this kind of behavior is okay.

So, can some Muslims here please address if this is actually an accepted practice or do you feel it is a fringe idea used as justification for abuse?

I'm certainly not Muslim and no subject matter expert on this topic. I think like any religious group, Muslims would have the same ability to interpret their holy book as they wanted to - liberally or more conservatively and people of different character and understanding will act differently based upon the teachings and directive given to them.

I think it's challening for a lot of people outside the auspices of this particular faith, it is for me, as a woman, to digest the concept of being subservient to a husband who would have the religious authority to beat me if I fell out of line. But, I have to acknowledge my own unfairness when making such assumptions about other cultures. The veiled woman isn't necessarily abused or unhappy within her marriage, even if indoctrinated into such circumstances.

However, I think I might get the point that Godobeyer was making and maybe he can correct me if I'm wrong.

And I think the point that was being made is that the subservience means to the greatest extent that the man is head of household - the provider, the protecter, the authority. But, when acting as such in a loving, compassionate manner - and loving his spouse - an abusive relationship wouldn't exist, because he would see his spouse as something precious and she would be subservient out of love and respect, because they would both abide by the teachings of their holy book, consentually. He wouldn't have to beat her as he wouldn't be inclined to do so. They would work out their problems as married couples do.

I felt this was the point that Godobeyer was making and again, if I'm wrong, I hope he speaks up.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
Machismo does not have to be a moorish trait, if at all...

Just because I come from a Filipino background, which also has ties to Spanish Christian culture and heritage, does not mean that machismo is something necessarily inherently passed down interculturally. Machismo has existed in many cultures even before the advent of Islam, such as Roman culture.
i agree except for what i highlighted
i'm not saying it is an exclusive trait to the moorish culture.

but when comparing the scandinavian culture i see a contrast
 

Bismillah

Submit
Muslims would have the same ability to interpret their holy book as they wanted to - liberally or more conservatively and people of different character and understanding will act differently based upon the teachings and directive given to them.
Be that as it may, we are not talking about metaphorical interpretation but rather what the religious edicts are and proof either way. Interpreation only goes so far and rather you see no pattern in opinion as there are scholars such as Ibn Rush who lived during the Classical Period of Islam who held the same opinions as their contemporary scholars as you can see here http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2722785-post143.html
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Be that as it may, we are not talking about metaphorical interpretation but rather what the religious edicts are and proof either way. Interpreation only goes so far and rather you see no pattern in opinion as there are scholars such as Ibn Rush who lived during the Classical Period of Islam who held the same opinions as their contemporary scholars as you can see here http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2722785-post143.html

I don't want to debate intrepretation of this holy book. It means little to me. I claim to have no understanding of it and am not in any way, an authority on how it should or shouldn't be understood.

I simply offered a perspective in reference to exampled teachings of such holy book and felt that I might understand where a Muslim was coming from when describing that abuse doesn't have to factor in.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Looking at the Quran itself, I'm surprised that most have glossed over my post showing that daraba, the word itself, has several other meanings, and thus the Arabic is open to interpretation.

The translation I provided translated the word 'daraba' to 'separating' rather than any indication of hitting at all.

still...
does one need to be told how to treat their wife...really?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
:facepalm: movies do not reflect real life, they are purely a source of entertainment.

Actually let me say, some are based on true-stories etc but I'm pretty sure I can see there will be added dramatics for entertainment purposes in these also. What movies have you taken your view on the west from?
yeah , the science fiction movie is the face of your culture hhhhhhhhhhhhh
are you serieus ?
I talking about movie which represent the culture and tradition .
for exemple cowboy movies represent the culture and tradition of USA especiatly in south (Texas ..etc )
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
This has probably been said but any man who beats his wife to express dominance is not a man. And is deserving of nothing but contempt.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
yeah , the science fiction movie is the face of your culture hhhhhhhhhhhhh
are you serieus ?
I talking about movie which represent the culture and tradition .
for exemple cowboy movies represent the culture and tradition of USA especiatly in south (Texas ..etc )

Then you haven't been to Texas. :p
 
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