Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[beenie]

That's not what I said and you know it.

 

[TruthSpeaker]

What I want to know is why you want to take a direction for non-retaliation to mean that the wife getting hit in the first place was alright? Just because Allah might have directed to not take retaliation doesn't mean that her getting beat was okay. It could just as easily be..."two wrongs don't make a right" or "turn the other cheek". I didn't see anything in there that said that Allah approved of the wife getting hit, only that the same action shouldn't be taken as retribution. Isn't it just as likely that Allah didn't want anyone to be hit and so wanted it to stop altogether instead of becoming escalated by back and forth retaliation?

quoting again as i misunderstood your post before

Hadith is not a source of commanments, quran is !!
Read quran 4.34 it clearly says to perform 'adriboo' against their wife if she is disobedient. The only doubt was that what it exactly means by 'adriboo', only for that purpose we rely on hadith to check the context, and it says 'to slap', stop it right there, and return to quran. So it means in quran it tells to slap if wife is disobedient.

For a moment pls concentrate on what quran exactly says, and not my personal interest to follow quran or not.

 

[TruthSpeaker]

That's not what I said and you know it.

im sorry if i misunderstood, requested to make it clear if you care.

and there are variations in that, then we have to accept that there are variations on the word adriboo.

you mean in that context in hadith it may not be necessary slap?

 

[Draka]

quoting again as i misunderstood your post before

Hadith is not a source of commanments, quran is !!
Read quran 4.34 it clearly says to perform 'adriboo' against their wife if she is disobedient. The only doubt was that what it exactly means by 'adriboo', only for that purpose we rely on hadith to check the context, and it says 'to slap', stop it right there, and return to quran. So it means in quran it tells to slap if wife is disobedient.

For a moment pls concentrate on what quran exactly says, and not my personal interest to follow quran or not.

How can it mean to slap when striking the face of a woman is forbidden entirely? Would it not make more sense that it means something else other than slap or beat? Just because there is a case talking about retribution for a wife being hit does not mean that that was the prescribed punishment in the first place. That part speaks to retaliation, not the acceptability of striking a wife.

 

[beenie]

quoting again as i misunderstood your post before

Hadith is not a source of commanments, quran is !!
Read quran 4.34 it clearly says to perform 'adriboo' against their wife if she is disobedient. The only doubt was that what it exactly means by 'adriboo', only for that purpose we rely on hadith to check the context, and it says 'to slap', stop it right there, and return to quran. So it means in quran it tells to slap if wife is disobedient.

For a moment pls concentrate on what quran exactly says, and not my personal interest to follow quran or not.

im sorry if i misunderstood, requested to make it clear if you care.

The slap is not in question here. For whatever reason, that man slapped his wife. That doesn't mean the action was condoned or acceptable (especially since we ALL agree slapping to the face is not allowed). The advise came to not retaliate, and the meaning of "adriboo" as "separate" makes complete sense.

Try this out:

A woman comes to the Prophet and complains that her husband slapped her. He advises her to retaliate. The verse comes to the Prophet explaining the steps of mending a marital dispute. The Prophet then calls the woman back and says "don't retaliate" then the verse is revealed. Adriboo is mentioned, but means "separate" rather than beat. Retaliation is what the Prophet had to correct. Why isn't it possible that the Qur'anic verse said "don't hit, instead separate"?

 

[pwfaith]

pwfaith, I do mean absolutely no disrespect to you, and please don't take offense to this...but Badran, DebaterSlayer, Bismillah, MuslimainBlack, and I have have expressed alternative views throughout the nearly 160 pages of this very thread. Please take the time to read it; this question has been posed over and over by Godobeyer and TruthSpeaker more times than I'd care to revisit. We have quoted Qur'an, Hadith, quotes from scholars...Arabic speaking Badran and DebaterSlayer have broken words apart and defined them...it's not fair for anyone to jump in 158 pages into a thread and ask the very question the OP states without taking the time to read it.

You are absolutely right and I am very sorry. Off to read what I can.

 

[Meow Mix]

then she should say her husband 'dont beat' and explain she undertand it another way. They can visit scholars from different opinion and reach common opinion which satisfies both.

Well, as long as someone isn't being beaten who doesn't agree or ask for it, then I guess that's fine.

What I worry about, though, is that people will be coerced into "agreeing" to be beaten when they don't really agree with it -- for fear that it will be worse if they show signs of disagreeing with their husband's interpretation.

Can you at least imagine how that might be a problem?

i asked same question before, why you think porn beating not barbaric?
pornstar take beating for reward.
muslimah too who take beating will be rewarded in afterlife for obidience.
what different?

Actually my personal opinion is that beating women in porn is pretty barbaric too; but at least those women have given obvious consent to be hit -- given that they could sue the film maker for a lot of money and sue the actor that hits her for assault if she hasn't given consent!

If someone beats someone and then rewards them for it, it's still a terrible act if the person being beaten didn't explicitely agree to being beaten.

i cant understand why porn beating is ok and wife beating not ok. i see no sense in your speech.

There is obvious consent in one but not in the other -- someone who gets hit in a movie has agreed to be hit in a very certain way: they have to read a script and then agree to act out what's on that script.

If a husband beats a wife, it's not that clear. He can't just say "She's a Muslimah, so she should be OK with me beating her because it's part of Islam" because obviously not all Muslims/Muslimahs agree that's part of Islam. She might not agree wife-beating is part of Islam and thus get beaten against her will: that would be a terrible thing!

 

[Debater Slayer]

4.34 is from allah, my question was do you have any hadith with allah contradicting himself about slapping. If have pls provide and i will leave everything now here.


now you say it is slap, thanks
everything is clear in 4.34 except meaning of 'adriboo', nothing has to be taken from hadith except what it means by adriboo in that context, and you said it, slap it is.

I don't think it means "slap" at all, as there are Hadiths explicitly forbidding touching the face or slapping.

You are absolutely right and I am very sorry. Off to read what I can.

If you still have any more questions after reading, feel free to ask them. We're here to help.

 

[beenie]

I don't think it means "slap" at all, as there are Hadiths explicitly forbidding touching the face or slapping.

Exactly. Where he got that I said it means "slap" is beyond me.

If you still have any more questions after reading, feel free to ask them. We're here to help.

Absolutely.

 

[TruthSpeaker]

I don't think it means "slap" at all, as there are Hadiths explicitly forbidding touching the face or slapping.

i said many times, is there a hadith saying allah forbiding face slapping, Anyway i do accept it does not mean slap, but beat fits right.

 

[TruthSpeaker]

The slap is not in question here. For whatever reason, that man slapped his wife. That doesn't mean the action was condoned or acceptable (especially since we ALL agree slapping to the face is not allowed). The advise came to not retaliate, and the meaning of "adriboo" as "separate" makes complete sense.

Try this out:

A woman comes to the Prophet and complains that her husband slapped her. He advises her to retaliate. The verse comes to the Prophet explaining the steps of mending a marital dispute. The Prophet then calls the woman back and says "don't retaliate" then the verse is revealed. Adriboo is mentioned, but means "separate" rather than beat. Retaliation is what the Prophet had to correct. Why isn't it possible that the Qur'anic verse said "don't hit, instead separate"?

the hadith has more to say about the context, but its arabic, ask DS to translate if he is serious in this issue.

and pls dont post again hadith's about muhammads personal opinion to contradict this, as this clearly says its allah who permitted to hit.

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -

confirm from him it asks to beat or not. Whatever he says just post it here.

 

[beenie]

i said many times, is there a hadith saying allah forbiding face slapping, Anyway i do accept it does not mean slap, but beat fits right.

Oh, we'll that's comforting. I'm sure lots of people will feel much better knowing that, in your opinion, adriboo means to "beat" your wife and not just "slap" her.

Your argument actually frightens me.

 

[Enlighten]

Exactly. Where he got that I said it means "slap" is beyond me.



Absolutely.

Actually, again I am posting here, but from only ssainhu, badran, DS, and Bismillah that I seek responses from, where are reliable sources for me, I have, as you know endevoured to learn so much throughout this thread, for me I have been using: Qur'anic verse 4:34 as an example. Is this a good source to follow? I find it to be inline what you say therefore would appreciate your thoughts on the source before I read further.

EDIT: I cannot bring myself to read what has been written before so just responded to the latest post.

 

[beenie]

Actually, again I am posting here, but from only ssainhu, badran, DS, and Bismillah that I seek responses from, where are reliable sources for me, I have, as you know endevoured to learn so much throughout this thread, for me I have been using: Qur'anic verse 4:34 as an example. Is this a good source to follow? I find it to be inline what you say therefore would appreciate your thoughts on the source before I read further.

EDIT: I cannot bring myself to read what has been written before so just responded to the latest post.

Yes that is very much in line with what we are saying. That interpretation, that adriboo means forsake or further separate/ignore makes complete sense, rather than beating. I still haven't gotten an acceptable reason why beat is a better interpretation. Something tells me I won't.

 

[TruthSpeaker]

ssainhu, for the time being you can go through this verse

We said], "And take in your hand a bunch [of grass] and strike with it and do not break your oath." Indeed, We found him patient, an excellent servant. Indeed, he was one repeatedly turning back [to Allah].​

(Saad: 44)

in here too, the same word is used is used which means adriboo or daraba, in this context it is beating, and it is allah who commands to beat the wife. Of course this is not a proof, but to let you know how the word adriboo is used in quran.​

 

[Daviso452]

The Quran allows men to slap their wives. And the bible says homosexuals are immoral. There is something wrong with every religion. Do what many people do: just ignore that part of the text.

Either way you're not making it any more believable.

 

[beenie]

ssainhu, for the time being you can go through this verse

We said], "And take in your hand a bunch [of grass] and strike with it and do not break your oath." Indeed, We found him patient, an excellent servant. Indeed, he was one repeatedly turning back [to Allah].​

(Saad: 44)

in here too, the same ​

word is used is used which means adriboo or daraba, in this context it is beating, and its allah who commands to beat. Of course this is not a proof, but to let you know how the word adriboo is used in quran.

Do you acknowledge that the word adriboo has more than one meaning, and that "forsake" is one of them? I know that the same word is used in different contexts in the Qur'an as well.

 

[TruthSpeaker]

Do you acknowledge that the word adriboo has more than one meaning, and that "forsake" is one of them? I know that the same word is used in different contexts in the Qur'an as well.

you are correct. anyway, it that verse allah has no problem with beating wife. it wonders me to believe he has problem with beating only when wife rebels.

 

[Enlighten]

Yes that is very much in line with what we are saying. That interpretation, that adriboo means forsake or further separate/ignore makes complete sense, rather than beating. I still haven't gotten an acceptable reason why beat is a better interpretation. Something tells me I won't.

Thanks ssainhu, I will continue down this line for education. I feel that (like you do) we are going to get no further in this thread. It has been refreshing to meet here religious individuals who are willing to see reason, hence I want to probe it further (outwith this thread ).

I honestly cannot see them agreeing to "not beating" because that is in fact what they want to do, they want to hold authority, Too many, including non-muslims have presented facts, yet they who choose to remain in their own world wont see reason, lost cause after so many posts I think.

 

[Draka]

anyway, it that verse allah has no problem with beating wife. it wonders me to believe he has problem with beating only when wife rebels.

First off, if you're still talking about that one concerning retaliation, it is quite clearly addressing the act of retaliation, not condoning the act of the husband in the first place. Secondly, are you saying that you think Allah has no issue with beating a wife at all? Regardless of any "rebelling"? Do you think men should be able to beat their wives any time they feel like it?