Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[Kerr]

for me i will never married a woman learn martial arts .
we here could not resolve our problems with normal women , how about whick learnd KARATI hhhhhhhhhhhhh:run:

Lol, I wouldnt mind. I like women who train martial arts... assuming they arent jerks, of course .

 

[Draka]

Perhaps it's high time for them to become insubordinate and free themselves from their enslaved state.

I call to mind a Greek play, Lysistrata, in which the women all withhold sex to end a war.

In a relationship where the man is the "leader" and is not opposed to beating his wife, do you think withholding sex will stop him from taking it? I've heard those arguments before. That it is a woman's "duty" to have sex with her husband when he wants it, he has a "right" to her body. You think any man who fancies himself his wife's boss and jailer (requiring his permission for her to leave the house and such) and who also will hit his wife, wouldn't just rape her as well? Of course, he wouldn't call it rape, just like him beating her isn't abuse. In such relationships, withholding sex wouldn't make any difference except to make her suffering even greater.

 

[Enlighten]

This thread still keeps me up at night.

I am with you on this, cannot stop thinking about it. I have literally just been reading some interpretations of the Qur'an and find this rather interesting:

"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes..." (Holy Qur'an 24:2)

To me this is very much like Allah saying that there should be no difference if it is a man or woman who commits adultery, the punishment is still the same.

Part of the article I am reading states:

Superior husband and inferior wife?

Throughout the Holy Qur'an, Allah emphasizes that men and women are equal for Him – Allah will judge them in exactly the same way 3. So it would be strange indeed if a verse would contradict this equality. But is that really the case here? The Arabic word used is {qawwam}, an intensive form of {qaim}, meaning: 'to take care of, to look after'. Therefore, does this verse say that men are superior to women? Not at all. It says: men must look after women. In Islam, men are obliged to financially provide for their wife and children. They have to pay for their housing, clothing, food, medicines, etc. That is what {qawwamoona} means: men must take care of women.

Lastly, I found this very interesting and would welcome your thoughts on the accuracy of the article:

Beating a wife, would contradict hadiths of the Holy Prophet who repeatedly said: “do not beat believing women!”. It would also contradict the Holy Prophet's instructions about anger – which (unless it is caused by injustice) he explained to originate from Satan and which he described as "a living coal on one's heart". One should not act upon ones anger, lest one would do things one would regret later. When you are angry when you are standing, sit down, the Holy Prophet said. And when you are still angry when you are sitting, then lie down. Interpreting this verse as allowing a husband to beat his wife, surely contradicts these rulings on anger.

Furthermore, Allah says in the Holy Qur'an that one must meet bad behaviour with something that is better, not with something that is worse, in order to turn a hostile situation into a friendly one:

"Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (Holy Qur'an 41:13)​

Qur'anic verse 4:34
​

 

[ConfusedKuri]

4-34
how you can explain to the word "beat them "this verse ?واضربوهن

As far as I know before things between you and your wife turn THAT ugly you should seperate on good terms instead of losing control. How will you benefit from abusing her?Plus how do you classify beating? Slapping her with your hands into her face? Using a belt? Using a stick? Using your fist? To what extent would you physically discipline her? I still stand by my word and say if you have to go down to such a level it makes you a coward and obviously incapable of argueing in a proper with your spouse.

O btw one of our Marjahs stated if a woman is physically abused by her husband she has a right to hit him back in order to defend herself.

On top of that shouldn't the prophet SAW be our example? I do not know of any incident where he hit one of his wives. Being a Shia I will also mention Imam Ali(AS) NEVER physically abused or insulted Syeda Zahra(AS).

 

[Godobeyer]

As far as I know before things between you and your wife turn THAT ugly you should seperate on good terms instead of losing control. How will you benefit from abusing her?Plus how do you classify beating? Slapping her with your hands into her face? Using a belt? Using a stick? Using your fist? To what extent would you physically discipline her? I still stand by my word and say if you have to go down to such a level it makes you a coward and obviously incapable of argueing in a proper with your spouse.

O btw one of our Marjahs stated if a woman is physically abused by her husband she has a right to hit him back in order to defend herself.

On top of that shouldn't the prophet SAW be our example? I do not know of any incident where he hit one of his wives. Being a Shia I will also mention Imam Ali(AS) NEVER physically abused or insulted Syeda Zahra(AS).

let's be short for one time , what mean واضربوهن

 

[Godobeyer]

So true! I'm all of 5'4" and I weigh around 90 pounds, and I took down a 6'1" good sized dude the other day. Smaller people, whether they're men or women, just need to use their leverage differently.

This thread still keeps me up at night.

why sister ,is there some thing wrong ?

 

[Drolefille]

you had right
here the huge problems which take the men to beat her wives are very few , and rare ,becaus most the women are not insubordinate to their husbands .

No. You're excusing the error of a man - hitting another person - by blaming a woman's actions for it.

If a man hitting a woman is an error than there is no excuse for it, it should be corrected, not blamed on the actions of a woman.

If a woman's actions are in error then they shouldn't be responded to with another error by a man.

I disagree with you about the woman's actions being in error, but surely one wrong doesn't excuse another.

 

[Vinayaka]

In a relationship where the man is the "leader" and is not opposed to beating his wife, do you think withholding sex will stop him from taking it? I've heard those arguments before. That it is a woman's "duty" to have sex with her husband when he wants it, he has a "right" to her body. You think any man who fancies himself his wife's boss and jailer (requiring his permission for her to leave the house and such) and who also will hit his wife, wouldn't just rape her as well? Of course, he wouldn't call it rape, just like him beating her isn't abuse. In such relationships, withholding sex wouldn't make any difference except to make her suffering even greater.

With regard to sexuality, the irony (at least to me) here is that the couple's sex life will be 1000 times more gratifying within a loving caring relationship than within a violent demanding one. (If these men only knew!)

 

[Debater Slayer]

I am with you on this, cannot stop thinking about it. I have literally just been reading some interpretations of the Qur'an and find this rather interesting:



To me this is very much like Allah saying that there should be no difference if it is a man or woman who commits adultery, the punishment is still the same.

Part of the article I am reading states:



Lastly, I found this very interesting and would welcome your thoughts on the accuracy of the article:



Qur'anic verse 4:34
[/INDENT]

Not to interrupt your conversation with ssainhu, but I thought I could help with this.

What the article states is one interpretation of the verse, meaning that some scholars held that opinion, while others have interpreted "adriboo" as "light beating", that is avoiding any physically painful beating or slapping/punching, but using "light means of discipline".

So, the opinion in the article was also adhered to by some scholars.

However, being that I'm not knowledgeable enough on this, I can't say for sure which opinion is more correct.

I would like to reiterate for emphasis though: GodObeyer's "slap of love" or "slapping the insubordinate wife" are completely ruled out. In any case, anyway one interprets the verse, slapping/punching or touching the face is out of the equation and explicitly forbidden.

let's be short for one time , what mean واضربوهن

I think I should also add this to my above reply for more confirmation: I'm not only a native Arabic speaker, but I'm also not from the "West"; I'm from Egypt, which - incidentally - is very close to where you are from (Algeria).

So this eliminates any potential arguments about me being affected by cultural differences or language barriers.

 

[Enlighten]

Not to interrupt your conversation with ssainhu, but I thought I could help with this.

What the article states is one interpretation of the verse, meaning that some scholars held that opinion, while others have interpreted "adriboo" as "light beating", that is avoiding any physically painful beating or slapping/punching, but using "light means of discipline".

So, the opinion in the article was also adhered to by some scholars.

However, being that I'm not knowledgeable enough on this, I can't say for sure which opinion is more correct.

I would like to reiterate for emphasis though: GodObeyer's "slap of love" or "slapping the insubordinate wife" are completely ruled out. In any case, anyway one interprets the verse, slapping/punching or touching the face is out of the equation and explicitly forbidden.

No need to apologise for interrupting, I welcome views on it as I am not part of the religion so I could be in the wrong when it comes to Islam.

I like you, am not knowledgeable on the subject hence posting for feedback, I just found it interesting to see that perspective on the text. (I have also found links which say the opposite to be honest, I just used this as an example). On the most part though as you have correctly stated many would not agree with the "love slap" theory, it goes against Allah from what I have read anyway.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

yes , you right
the woman is weaker than the man , that why God order the man to care about her .
I had experience when we saw a girl beated by stranger man in the road,sudenly all the men defend for her , they beat that man very hard , then took him to police .
I will do the same if i see someone beat a woman or old man .

Why do you think you would deserve any less for beating your (hopefully hypothetical) wife for leaving the house without your permission?

I respect the women so much

No, you don't.

 

[beenie]

This thread still keeps me up at night.

I am with you on this, cannot stop thinking about it. I have literally just been reading some interpretations of the Qur'an and find this rather interesting:

"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes..." (Holy Qur'an 24:2)

To me this is very much like Allah saying that there should be no difference if it is a man or woman who commits adultery, the punishment is still the same.

Part of the article I am reading states:

Superior husband and inferior wife?

Throughout the Holy Qur'an, Allah emphasizes that men and women are equal for Him – Allah will judge them in exactly the same way 3. So it would be strange indeed if a verse would contradict this equality. But is that really the case here? The Arabic word used is {qawwam}, an intensive form of {qaim}, meaning: 'to take care of, to look after'. Therefore, does this verse say that men are superior to women? Not at all. It says: men must look after women. In Islam, men are obliged to financially provide for their wife and children. They have to pay for their housing, clothing, food, medicines, etc. That is what {qawwamoona} means: men must take care of women.

Lastly, I found this very interesting and would welcome your thoughts on the accuracy of the article:

Beating a wife, would contradict hadiths of the Holy Prophet who repeatedly said: “do not beat believing women!”. It would also contradict the Holy Prophet's instructions about anger – which (unless it is caused by injustice) he explained to originate from Satan and which he described as "a living coal on one's heart". One should not act upon ones anger, lest one would do things one would regret later. When you are angry when you are standing, sit down, the Holy Prophet said. And when you are still angry when you are sitting, then lie down. Interpreting this verse as allowing a husband to beat his wife, surely contradicts these rulings on anger.

Furthermore, Allah says in the Holy Qur'an that one must meet bad behaviour with something that is better, not with something that is worse, in order to turn a hostile situation into a friendly one:

"Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (Holy Qur'an 41:13)​

Qur'anic verse 4:34
​

Point on. Daraba meaning "beat" goes against the teaching of our Prophet, and therefore, I reject the meaning entirely.

 

[beenie]

yeah it's seems contradiction , but each time had it's event .
edited : I am talknig for women in general , but this thread is for Muslim woman .especialy insubordinate wife
i respect all the woman and will respect my wife , but if she made a wrong with me , and did not respect me , what can i do in this case
I made many exemples
if my wife insult me for any reason,even i deserve that i should had a reaction to stop her .
if my wife go out house without my permission , i should had a reaction to warning her .
if i catch my wife cheating me with someone on the phone,or internet..etc, i should had a reaction in that time, then disover her .
as I see that the woman is not perfect ceature and the man also .all made errors , the best one who admit his errors and try to correct it .

Reverse this and pretend it's the husband doing all of this. Does he deserve correction by his wife? If so, by what means (how)?

 

[Draka]

Reverse this and pretend it's the husband doing all of this. Does he deserve correction by his wife? If so, by what means (how)?

I've asked this myself of him more than once. What are the punishments for the men? I even asked him in his little hypothetical of catching his wife speaking with another man, where he would slap her for it, what punishment should the man get for speaking to a married woman? Is he to be punished or not? And if so, how so? If not, why not?

 

[gnostic]

4-34

how you can explain to the word "beat them "this verse ?واضربوهن

Any Muslim man who resort to such action, using Qur'an 4:34 verse as an excuse to beat his wife is nothing more than a coward and bully - a wife-beater.

yeah it's seems contradiction , but each time had it's event .
edited : I am talknig for women in general , but this thread is for Muslim woman .especialy insubordinate wife
i respect all the woman and will respect my wife , but if she made a wrong with me , and did not respect me , what can i do in this case
I made many exemples
if my wife insult me for any reason,even i deserve that i should had a reaction to stop her .
if my wife go out house without my permission , i should had a reaction to warning her .
if i catch my wife cheating me with someone on the phone,or internet..etc, i should had a reaction in that time, then disover her .
as I see that the woman is not perfect ceature and the man also .all made errors , the best one who admit his errors and try to correct it .

I would pity any woman who would marry you.

It is laughable that you say "respect all women". Clearly you don't them if you have to beat them. Why should she respect you if you don't respect her? Why should she respect a bully and a tyrant for a husband?

Any man, Muslim or not, who beat his wife, don't deserve any respect from her.

That you would resort to such action, I wouldn't even respect you.

 

[Godobeyer]

Any Muslim man who resort to such action, using Qur'an 4:34 verse as an excuse to beat his wife is nothing more than a coward and bully - a wife-beater.



I would pity any woman who would marry you.

It is laughable that you say "respect all women". Clearly you don't them if you have to beat them. Why should she respect you if you don't respect her? Why should she respect a bully and a tyrant for a husband?

Any man, Muslim or not, who beat his wife, don't deserve any respect from her.

That you would resort to such action, I wouldn't even respect you.

the idea is , when the wife don't respect her (she first) , he had the right to warning her "by talking " then " don't sleep with her " then "beat her soflty ", then make arbitor , if the situation is back to normal it's ok . if not the divorce is the solution .

 

[Me Myself]

the idea is , when the wife don't respect her (she first) , he had the right to warning her "by talking " then " don't sleep with her " then "beat her soflty ", then make arbitor , if the situation is back to normal it's ok . if not the divorce is the solution .

And if the man is not listening to the woman, what are the options for the woman?

 

[Godobeyer]

Point on. Daraba meaning "beat" goes against the teaching of our Prophet, and therefore, I reject the meaning entirely.

I am afraid that you are not good in arabic , that's why you don't know what mean Daraba .anyway . if you considerate a soflty "beat" , me too .

if not
for your opinion , what mean Daraba in that verse of Quran ?ضربة

 

[gnostic]

the idea is , when the wife don't respect her (she first) , he had the right to warning her "by talking " then " don't sleep with her " then "beat her soflty ", then make arbitor , if the situation is back to normal it's ok . if not the divorce is the solution .

Beating is never a solution. PERIOD!

What if you're the one who is wrong, and not her? What happen then? Does she have to give in to you simply because you're man, even you may be the one is wrong?

The verse 4:34 doesn't offer compromise or compassion. It seem that the author think the women are always wrong, and men are always right. It is archaic, it is stereotype, it's sexism and it's misogyny in the extreme.

 

[Marble]

accuatly if we compare between the abuse in the west and in islamic countries will be shocked and suprised ,

Can you please add some statistical data from Islamic/Wester countries for comparision?