Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[Godobeyer]

And if the man is not listening to the woman, what are the options for the woman?

I don't know exactly the solution in this case, but for my opinion .
if the man made wrong (first ) with the wife, she have to talk to him and if he did not back to his mind , she need to call her family to resolve this problem .
if not she need to ask him to divorce her .
btw : if she beat him , and he accept that , i don't mind .

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Beating Women In Islam is "haram" forbidden.

 

[Godobeyer]

I would pity any woman who would marry you.

It is laughable that you say "respect all women". Clearly you don't them if you have to beat them. Why should she respect you if you don't respect her? Why should she respect a bully and a tyrant for a husband?

Any man, Muslim or not, who beat his wife, don't deserve any respect from her.

That you would resort to such action, I wouldn't even respect you.

you don't respect me when I beat my "insubordinate wife" , i would not respect you when you let your wife talking with forgiens , and dance and kiss cheeks, by the name of "freedom and trust" .
see how we see the things extremely different ?

yeah I respect all the woman even my willing wife , we are talking in specific/rare case, happened between the wife and her husband .
when they love each other , but she insubordinate him for no reason . he talked to her
she did not respond!! , he did not sleep with her , she did not respond !!, he beat (soflty) her she did not respond !!, she ask to gother arbitors for her family and his family, she did not respond !!, now he had the choice divorce her or live with her in patient .

 

[Godobeyer]

Beating Women In Islam is "haram" forbidden.

of course forbiden , we are talking about the insubordinate wife

الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلا تبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

 

[Drolefille]

the idea is , when the wife don't respect her (she first) , he had the right to warning her "by talking " then " don't sleep with her " then "beat her soflty ", then make arbitor , if the situation is back to normal it's ok . if not the divorce is the solution .

But if beating her is a wrong, then why is OK to beat her? Unless you do not respect her as you say.

Why not just remove "beat her" from your list of options.

 

[Godobeyer]

Beating is never a solution. PERIOD!

What if you're the one who is wrong, and not her? What happen then? Does she have to give in to you simply because you're man, even you may be the one is wrong?

The verse 4:34 doesn't offer compromise or compassion. It seem that the author think the women are always wrong, and men are always right. It is archaic, it is stereotype, it's sexism and it's misogyny in the extreme.

I just reply for that

it's your opinion .

 

[Kerr]

I don't know exactly the solution in this case, but for my opinion .
if the man made wrong (first ) with the wife, she have to talk to him and if he did not back to his mind , she need to call her family to resolve this problem .
if not she need to ask him to divorce her .
btw : if she beat him , and he accept that , i don't mind .

And if her family wont do anything to help her? Or if he refuses to accept a divorce?

 

[Godobeyer]

Can you please add some statistical data from Islamic/Wester countries for comparision?

I don't have statistical data
it's something can see it by your own eyes .

in Islam
the woman had the right to study , and work facutatif (if the want ) , and she is under the responsiblity of her parents if she did not married , and if she married she is under the responsiblity of her husband , and if the husband die and she had son or sons , they are the responsible for her until she die .and if she had not a son ,her brother or father is responsible of her .
the responsiblily is anything she want , food ,clothes , doctor ....etc

in the west
the woman had the right to study , she had to work (obligation ) most of time , she is under the responsiblity of her parents "until 18 age " and if she married she is the responsible with her husband for any thing , and if the husband die and had son or sons they left her (they are the responsible for her ) and if she had brothers or father maybe they will help her .
the west considerate the beauty of the woman as trade "they use your beauty " to make the men funny , they make you as fun resource to the male .
I remember that saw in movie, some women are stand as goods in the road or in shops.

 

[Godobeyer]

And if her family wont do anything to help her? Or if he refuses to accept a divorce?

she goes to the court to divorce her , and made a case against him and her family .

 

[Kerr]

she goes to the court to divorce her , and made a case against him and her family .

Ok. Just wanted to know her options better.

 

[Draka]

I don't have statistical data
it's something can see it by your own eyes .

in Islam
the woman had the right to study , and work facutatif (if the want ) , and she is under the responsiblity of her parents if she did not married , and if she married she is under the responsiblity of her husband , and if the husband die and she had son or sons , they are the responsible for her until she die .and if she had not a son ,her brother or father is responsible of her .
the responsiblily is anything she want , food ,clothes , doctor ....etc

in the west
the woman had the right to study , she had to work (obligation ) most of time , she is under the responsiblity of her parents "until 18 age " and if she married she is the responsible with her husband for any thing , and if the husband die and had son or sons they left her (they are the responsible for her ) and if she had brothers or father maybe they will help her .
the west considerate the beauty of the woman as trade "they use your beauty " to make the men funny , they make you as fun resource to the male .
I remember that saw in movie, some women are stand as goods in the road or in shops.

"In the west", women have the right to an education just like men. Women, like men, are considered legal adults at the age of 18 (unless emancipated from their parents before that), and responsible for themselves. Couples are considered to be equal in relationships. Both contribute and make decisions together. If a spouse dies then hopefully that spouse had life insurance and death benefits set up to help out the living spouse with the arrangements and getting solidly on their feet as an individual again. Sons, brothers and fathers don't automatically take on any responsibility for a widow anymore than they would for a widower. Family, regardless of gender, can help if they can or want to, but it is not expected.

As for use of beauty, both men and women model you know. And "make the men funny"? What is that supposed to mean?

 

[gnostic]

you don't respect me when I beat my "insubordinate wife" , i would not respect you when you let your wife talking with forgiens , and dance and kiss cheeks, by the name of "freedom and trust" .
see how we see the things extremely different ?

First off, I'm not married. So your claims of allowing "my wife" run free are meaningless to me.

And even I was married to some woman, I wouldn't treat her like a slave and punish her for disobedience or insubordination, which you have said would do. It is your sick fantasy, not mine.

yeah I respect all the woman even my willing wife , we are talking in specific/rare case, happened between the wife and her husband .
when they love each other , but she insubordinate him for no reason . he talked to her
she did not respond!! , he did not sleep with her , she did not respond !!, he beat (soflty) her she did not respond !!, she ask to gother arbitors for her family and his family, she did not respond !!, now he had the choice divorce her or live with her in patient .

How can you claim to respect woman if she had do all you wish and punish her when she doesn't meet to your expectation?

You talk of insubordination as if you was a king or slave-master as if a wife is like a common soldier or a servant or slave, certainly not as wife.

The Qur'an itself treat the woman, particularly a wife, as a property. The verse - 4:34 - only speak of woman doing wrong, and not the husband. The verse is treating woman-wife as if the fault could only be hers, and never the husband. Relationship is not so black-and-white as this stupid and misogynistic verse is portraying. Rarely the fault is just one person.

What if her so-called "disobedience" have to do with your wrongdoing and your own stupidity?

Going to her family as arbiter is not the solution.

The solution is that you have to listen or speak to her as if she is your equal, not talk down on her like she is your bl@#dy slave. Talking down to a woman is something what a tyrant would do. Understand that her so-called disobedience may be only "effect", and you may be the "cause" of the problem by your own behaviour or your own action. (You have heard of "cause-and-effect", haven't you?)

 

[gnostic]

in Islam
the woman had the right to study , and work facutatif (if the want ) , and she is under the responsiblity of her parents if she did not married , and if she married she is under the responsiblity of her husband , and if the husband die and she had son or sons , they are the responsible for her until she die .and if she had not a son ,her brother or father is responsible of her .
the responsiblily is anything she want , food ,clothes , doctor ....etc

I have seen video and interviews of widows and divorced women in Muslim societies. They are not treated better than the West.

And divorced women are treated worse. The communities tends to treat her as outsiders or as lepers, and she would live in abject poverty, without any prospect of employment, and if they have children, the custody immediately go to the husbands. Her family would usually reject her instead of taking her back in, because she is a "divorced" woman.

So don't tell us what the West do or don't do, for you have no absolutely no idea how women are treated in the West.

 

[Kerr]

I don't have statistical data
it's something can see it by your own eyes .

in Islam
the woman had the right to study , and work facutatif (if the want ) , and she is under the responsiblity of her parents if she did not married , and if she married she is under the responsiblity of her husband , and if the husband die and she had son or sons , they are the responsible for her until she die .and if she had not a son ,her brother or father is responsible of her .
the responsiblily is anything she want , food ,clothes , doctor ....etc

Assuming it is the way you describe I am not sure why any woman would want that. If I was in that situation I would go insane, because there would be something missing in my life. I would feel like a "thing" that would break easy, so everyone around me has to make sure I dont "break". Being responsible for your own life is maybe harder, but it is also far more rewarding.

in the west
the woman had the right to study , she had to work (obligation ) most of time , she is under the responsiblity of her parents "until 18 age " and if she married she is the responsible with her husband for any thing , and if the husband die and had son or sons they left her (they are the responsible for her ) and if she had brothers or father maybe they will help her .
the west considerate the beauty of the woman as trade "they use your beauty " to make the men funny , they make you as fun resource to the male .
I remember that saw in movie, some women are stand as goods in the road or in shops.

She has to take responsibility for her own life here, yes. That is not a bad thing. But it doesnt mean family members dont help each other out. My parents has always been there for me when I needed it. They will be until the day they die. If I where a woman they would still help me. Family members should help each other, but its no obligation, it is just what it means to be a family.

 

[ConfusedKuri]

"In the west", women have the right to an education just like men. Women, like men, are considered legal adults at the age of 18 (unless emancipated from their parents before that), and responsible for themselves. Couples are considered to be equal in relationships. Both contribute and make decisions together. If a spouse dies then hopefully that spouse had life insurance and death benefits set up to help out the living spouse with the arrangements and getting solidly on their feet as an individual again. Sons, brothers and fathers don't automatically take on any responsibility for a widow anymore than they would for a widower. Family, regardless of gender, can help if they can or want to, but it is not expected.

As for use of beauty, both men and women model you know. And "make the men funny"? What is that supposed to mean?

In Islam a woman holds equal rights as well, however this user well...he does seem to have a different understanding which I do not support at all and he enjoys generalising the west.

 

[Godobeyer]

"In the west", women have the right to an education just like men. Women, like men, are considered legal adults at the age of 18 (unless emancipated from their parents before that), and responsible for themselves. Couples are considered to be equal in relationships. Both contribute and make decisions together. If a spouse dies then hopefully that spouse had life insurance and death benefits set up to help out the living spouse with the arrangements and getting solidly on their feet as an individual again. Sons, brothers and fathers don't automatically take on any responsibility for a widow anymore than they would for a widower. Family, regardless of gender, can help if they can or want to, but it is not expected.

As for use of beauty, both men and women model you know. And "make the men funny"? What is that supposed to mean?

your society are not perfect , the west did trade in the woman , they allow to them stand accros the street and in shops "behind mirror" .
and they made them in bars dansing naked for fun .
you are just a source of fun (for their desires) to most of men in the west .
I am not talking about the hundreds of the adult site . which made the woman made sex in all position (pity and cheap then slave ) and make sex with animals also !!!!
honesly if you critic the muslims situation in the society , you need to dare to critic the situation of some women in the west also , or i will stop to post in this thread .

back to your reply :
in the west the woman most of cases it's obligation for her to work , the muslim no, for mulims women it's facultatif .

as I know the most of the men had other relation even they are mariage , and maybe the same thing with women ,betraying is very vast habit in the west .

as I know in the west most of the old parent , their childerns took them to infirmiry

as I know in the west ,the women at 18 should try to find house and job , and then boyfriend .

 

[Godobeyer]

In Islam a woman holds equal rights as well, however this user well...he does seem to have a different understanding which I do not support at all and he enjoys generalising the west.

I guess you know how they living.
and it's shame and forbiden to us, to post any thing about here .

as you see people ,it's seems that she always avoid to comment/reply for this verse

I had a short question and please avoid long answser , are you against this verse or with it ?

الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلا تبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am afraid that you are not good in arabic , that's why you don't know what mean Daraba .anyway . if you considerate a soflty "beat" , me too .

if not
for your opinion , what mean Daraba in that verse of Quran ?ضربة

Godobeyer,

For me (and I suspect many people in this thread), I will never accept wife-beating as right, no matter what you cite in the Quran in support of your views. In fact, spousal abuse is one of the crimes that sometimes makes me question my stance against the death penalty. You are describing evil acts.

Since nothing you say will convince me that wife-beating isn't evil, when you argue that it's consistent with the Quran, I don't take this as an argument that wife-beating is good; I take it as an argument that the Quran is a source of evil.

Lucky for you that your fellow Muslims are doing a good job of refuting your argument. If I had only you to rely on for my opinion of the Quran and Islam, I'd probably end up thinking that Islam was a dangerous, evil thing that should be wiped from the Earth.

of course forbiden , we are talking about the insubordinate wife

الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلا تبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

Wait... so beating women IS forbidden? Are wives not women?

 

[A-ManESL]

I had a short question and please avoid long answser , are you against this verse or with it ?

الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلا تبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

See the post here.

 

[ConfusedKuri]

I guess you know how they living.
and it's shame and forbiden to us, to post any thing about here .

as you see people ,it's seems that she always avoid to comment/reply for this verse

I had a short question and please avoid long answser , are you against this verse or with it ?

الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن فان اطعنكم فلا تبغوا عليهن سبيلا ان الله كان عليا كبيرا

I'm not a native Arabic speaker so please will you bother to show me a proper translation? I know which verse you are quoting, however I do have a different understanding of it, I hope you are able to respect that.